Author Topic: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed  (Read 56720 times)

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Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #180 on: December 30, 2008, 02:35:54 PM »

Offline crownsy

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The bottom line is that Tony is an intregal part to both a championship and a 28-4 team.  I've got to believe that coaching and management sees a lot in Tony for that to be the case.

That's not completely true.

Tony is an integral part of a 28-4 team yes, but not a championship team. He's one of the best bench players on what is a sub par bench. That's not much of an achievement.

The Coaching staff is well aware of Tony's strength's and weaknesses. My guess is that they put him out there hoping for the best, it's not like they have much of a choice.



It is completly true that they had a ton of other options (including overpaying for posey) and instead chose to stick with TA and a new contract, so clearly someone in the celtics player managment divsion has a pretty high opnion of his abilities that some of us seem not to share.

While that may be true, it's also true that those same talent evaluators were perfectly happy to let Tony walk away, declining to extend him a qualifying offer to retain his services.  Just because Tony was rated as the best option left on the market at the time he signed doesn't mean he was valued highly. 
  So, to me at least, it sounds like they valued TA enough to string him along as the 'next best thing' to resigning Posey...which also explains that when Posey signed in NO, the Cs jumped to resign Tony, letting similar players sign for similar money in other locales.  Danny obviously values TA....or he wouldn't be here.

right, TP, thats all i was trying to say in between being dismissed as some wack job that was saying Ta is the best bench player of all time because i disagreed that he was the bargin basement last option.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 03:15:14 PM by crownsy »
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Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #181 on: December 30, 2008, 04:43:47 PM »

Offline housecall

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The bottom line is that Tony is an intregal part to both a championship and a 28-4 team.  I've got to believe that coaching and management sees a lot in Tony for that to be the case.

That's not completely true.

Tony is an integral part of a 28-4 team yes, but not a championship team. He's one of the best bench players on what is a sub par bench. That's not much of an achievement.

The Coaching staff is well aware of Tony's strength's and weaknesses. My guess is that they put him out there hoping for the best, it's not like they have much of a choice.



It is completly true that they had a ton of other options (including overpaying for posey) and instead chose to stick with TA and a new contract, so clearly someone in the celtics player managment divsion has a pretty high opnion of his abilities that some of us seem not to share.

While that may be true, it's also true that those same talent evaluators were perfectly happy to let Tony walk away, declining to extend him a qualifying offer to retain his services.  Just because Tony was rated as the best option left on the market at the time he signed doesn't mean he was valued highly. 

The QO was declined because Danny had come to the conclusion that TA would be a waste of money if he was playing behind James Posey, because there wouldn't be enough minutes to go around (there was a great Comcast interview with DA in the offseason where he broke it down real scientifically, stating that TA was bad in 3-4 minute stints, but played increasingly better the longer he was on the court...if Posey resigned, TA was only going to get those 3-4 minute stints, so signing Posey and then having TA signed to a QO just didn't make any sense).  So, they declined the QO (knowing TA was likely to accept it), told TA they were going after Posey first and that if they didn't get Posey they were interested in re-signing TA for shorter money.  So, to me at least, it sounds like they valued TA enough to string him along as the 'next best thing' to resigning Posey...which also explains that when Posey signed in NO, the Cs jumped to resign Tony, letting similar players sign for similar money in other locales.  Danny obviously values TA....or he wouldn't be here.
Bingo ! "Danny obviously values TA",thats the key to why he is still with the team,and probably wont be going anywhere soon.From the interviews i have heard Danny speak in about TA it was obvious he has a lot of belief/hope in TA eventually turning a corner in his growth as a player.TP for this comment.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #182 on: December 30, 2008, 05:02:54 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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So let's take a look at Tony Allen facts:

As already provided by Roy Hobbs
Quote
Stats per 36 minutes

04-05: 14.0 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.5 fg%, 38.7 3pt%, 2.2 tpg, 4.5 pf
05-06: 13.6 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.1 fg%, 32.4 3pt%, 2.5 tpg, 4.6 pf
06-07: 16.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 2.2 spg,  0.5 bpg,51.4 fg%, 24.2 3pt%, 3.4 tpg, 3.9 pf
07-08: 13.0 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.0 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.6 bpg, 43.6 fg%, 31.6 3pt%, 2.9 tpg, 4.4 pf
08-09: 14.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 2.2 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.6 fg%, 16.7 3pt%, 3.1 tpg, 4.0 pf

These are the per game stats for his career:

               G   MIN   FG%   FT% REB  AST  TO  PTS
04-05  77   16.4   .475    .737   2.9    0.8   1.0   6.4
05-06  51   19.2   .471    .746   2.1    1.3   1.3   7.2
06-07  31   24.4   .514    .784   3.8    1.7   2.3   11.5
07-08  75   18.3   .434    .762   2.3    1.5   1.5   6.6
08-09  30   19.9   .474    .718   2.1    1.2   1.7   8.1

Without making comments about these numbers they are all simply facts.

He injured himself in the summer of 2005 and missed all of November and December of 2005 and started the 05-06 season on January 6th of 2006.

On January 10th of 2007, in the final minutes of a Celtics loss to the Indiana Pacers, Allen suffered a debilitating knee injury as he landed awkwardly after an uncontested slam dunk attempt after the whistle was blown, tearing both the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) and medial collateral ligament (MCL). Allen underwent a successful ACL reconstructive surgery on January 13 at New England Baptist Hospital[9] and was sidelined for the rest of the season.

Allen has been primarily a bench player starting games only when other players were hurt although a rare start not necessitated by other injured players did occur.

Allen played his first year for a good but not championship caliber Boston Celtics team, his next two years for bad Boston Celtics teams and his last season and a third for the best team in the NBA.

In the two years Tony Allen played for playoff teams his usage was shortened greatly as compared to his regular season use that year.

Now all these are facts. There's no getting around them. But how do we interpret them?

That's a pretty good start, Nick, but limited.  I'd like to see some other stats, such as Holliger's PER, overall +/-, Net PER (TA's fifth on the team, currently) for the last 4 years before we start the interpretation.  There are probably some other good statistic measurements that I'm forgetting.  Regardless, we need ALL the facts if we want to interpret them correctly.  And we all might need a refresher course on what all those stats are measuring, because it's easy to get lost in the numbers sometimes.  This might take all season.

Oh, and as far as usage in the playoffs is concerned, I think we know why he played less in those two playoffs.  In 2004, he was a rookie and Doc got cold feet about playing him, even though he was the better option at 2 guard against Reggie.  As for last year, we all know that too: TA was still not mentally prepared to lay it on the line, suffering as he was from the emotional effects of his knee injury.  That, and some guy named James Posey who got all the wing minutes, not to mention the fact that rotations are tightened in the playoffs and TA hadn't earned his spot in that tightened rotation. 
Just so that we are clear, all I stated was the fact that he played less minutes. I never speculated as to the reasons why, that is your own doing SalmonandMashed.

All I said was fact, he played less minutes in the playoffs the two years his teams made it to the playoffs than he did the regular season. The same way I can say that he has had only one season where he had more assists than turnovers and that was last year when he had 114 assists to 109 turnovers. Every other year he has not had more assists than turnovers.

It's the same way I can statistically state that out of all the shooting guards that play more than 15 MPG, Tony Allen has the 5th lowest assist to turnover ratio in the league at 0.72 and is consistently amongst the bottom ten in this category for shooting guards since he entered the league.

I'm not drawing conclusions from those facts, just stating them, people can draw their own conclusions.

Net PER per position:
                    PG        SG        SF         PF
2004-05  +1.8     +1.3       +22.9     N/A
2005-06   -0.9      -5.1        0.0        N/A
2006-07    0.0     +1.2       +3.0      -50.0 
2007-08   -8.8     +2.7       -6.2        0.0
2008-09    0.0     +2.1       -3.0        N/A

Good stuff Nick, thanks for pulling up the net PER stats.  TA's net PER is still 5th best on the team, not bad for a bench player.  To judge the meaningfulness of a stat, it's often helpful to place it in the context of what everyone else on the team is doing.  5th best net PER pretty much settles the argument of who is currently the bench's best player, doesn't it (I took that stat from 82games.com)?  Powe is close, Eddie a little further back, but TA, with the best net PER, scoring average, and steals per game of any bench player, is currently our best bench player, right?  If you can agree with that statement, then it's hard to understand all the hubbub about TA....I mean, if you want to improve the bench, you start with improving the players around the bench's best player, right?  Shouldn't we be having 15-page threads about Eddie or Powe?


I, for one, have never said that Tony isn't this year best bench player, because, he is. But that, I think, is more a statement on the overall quality of our bench than it is a statement about just how good Tony is.

And again, this goes back to what I said this summer when Danny was putting together this bench. I wanted an experienced bench with different components. My dream pick-ups had nothing to do with James Posey. I wanted a solid defensive big with length like Kurt Thomas. I wanted a backcourt player that could add offense and some ball handling, like Roger Mason. I wanted a defensive minded wing, like Matt Barnes or Mikael Pietrus. If a bench like this, not necessarily this group who would have been a dream bench but a bench like this that were veterans, I would have been thrilled about this team chances.

Because of Rondo's and Perk's development I still am convinced this team will repeat but think if the bench had a different makeup this team might have been considered one of the best ever. But Danny's idea of putting together a bench was to sign a lazy project at center, add two rookies(probably his best idea), resign a PG who does more coaching than playing, resign a SG that's a poor shooter and is not the smartest of players, and resign a PG that can't dribble or drive and needs to be passed the ball in the right spots to get his offense.

Not the best of summers for one Danny Ainge.


Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #183 on: December 30, 2008, 05:04:33 PM »

Offline Edgar

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Danny can be wrong..
He can only be deffending his mediocre summer
I will have to vote me thinking this.
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Nice to be back!

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #184 on: December 30, 2008, 05:30:27 PM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

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I think we can agree what went wrong over the offseason. Amid the James Posey coming back (or not to be) speculation, the Celtics lost several opportunities to grab quality free agents that would have bolstered our bench, and kept the owners financially in about the same condition as it currently is. Nick's post touched on this very well. Who'd NOT like to have Roger Mason, Kurt Thomas, and Matt Barnes? We expended our energies in areas that hardly bolstered our bench, in fact it weakened it because they are downgrades to PJ Brown and James Posey. Really, who would feel comfortable enough Patrick O'Bryant to come into a game where the season might be on the line? With Kurt Thomas or PJ Brown, the answer is a confident yes. With POB and TA, a resounding no.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #185 on: December 30, 2008, 05:47:35 PM »

Offline housecall

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I don't know or care so much about the stats a player produce,but i do care about who impacts the team best in a positive way when they are on the floor.So far this season i would have to say Powe has been the most consistent player on the second unit.Whether his stats are better than TA or anyone else's off the bench is not always whats important.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #186 on: December 30, 2008, 05:53:11 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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I don't know or care so much about the stats a player produce,but i do care about who impacts the team best in a positive way when they are on the floor.So far this season i would have to say Powe has been the most consistent player on the second unit.Whether his stats are better than TA or anyone else's off the bench is not always whats important.

tp...i agree about the stats.  stats are blk and wht, while basketball has a TON of grey in it

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #187 on: December 30, 2008, 05:58:00 PM »

Offline housecall

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I don't know or care so much about the stats a player produce,but i do care about who impacts the team best in a positive way when they are on the floor.So far this season i would have to say Powe has been the most consistent player on the second unit.Whether his stats are better than TA or anyone else's off the bench is not always whats important.

tp...i agree about the stats.  stats are blk and wht, while basketball has a TON of grey in it
I really hate applying stats to the whole picture...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 06:09:41 PM by housecall »

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #188 on: December 30, 2008, 06:59:21 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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So let's take a look at Tony Allen facts:

As already provided by Roy Hobbs
Quote
Stats per 36 minutes

04-05: 14.0 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.5 fg%, 38.7 3pt%, 2.2 tpg, 4.5 pf
05-06: 13.6 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.1 fg%, 32.4 3pt%, 2.5 tpg, 4.6 pf
06-07: 16.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 2.2 spg,  0.5 bpg,51.4 fg%, 24.2 3pt%, 3.4 tpg, 3.9 pf
07-08: 13.0 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.0 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.6 bpg, 43.6 fg%, 31.6 3pt%, 2.9 tpg, 4.4 pf
08-09: 14.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 2.2 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.6 fg%, 16.7 3pt%, 3.1 tpg, 4.0 pf

These are the per game stats for his career:

               G   MIN   FG%   FT% REB  AST  TO  PTS
04-05  77   16.4   .475    .737   2.9    0.8   1.0   6.4
05-06  51   19.2   .471    .746   2.1    1.3   1.3   7.2
06-07  31   24.4   .514    .784   3.8    1.7   2.3   11.5
07-08  75   18.3   .434    .762   2.3    1.5   1.5   6.6
08-09  30   19.9   .474    .718   2.1    1.2   1.7   8.1

Without making comments about these numbers they are all simply facts.

He injured himself in the summer of 2005 and missed all of November and December of 2005 and started the 05-06 season on January 6th of 2006.

On January 10th of 2007, in the final minutes of a Celtics loss to the Indiana Pacers, Allen suffered a debilitating knee injury as he landed awkwardly after an uncontested slam dunk attempt after the whistle was blown, tearing both the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) and medial collateral ligament (MCL). Allen underwent a successful ACL reconstructive surgery on January 13 at New England Baptist Hospital[9] and was sidelined for the rest of the season.

Allen has been primarily a bench player starting games only when other players were hurt although a rare start not necessitated by other injured players did occur.

Allen played his first year for a good but not championship caliber Boston Celtics team, his next two years for bad Boston Celtics teams and his last season and a third for the best team in the NBA.

In the two years Tony Allen played for playoff teams his usage was shortened greatly as compared to his regular season use that year.

Now all these are facts. There's no getting around them. But how do we interpret them?

That's a pretty good start, Nick, but limited.  I'd like to see some other stats, such as Holliger's PER, overall +/-, Net PER (TA's fifth on the team, currently) for the last 4 years before we start the interpretation.  There are probably some other good statistic measurements that I'm forgetting.  Regardless, we need ALL the facts if we want to interpret them correctly.  And we all might need a refresher course on what all those stats are measuring, because it's easy to get lost in the numbers sometimes.  This might take all season.

Oh, and as far as usage in the playoffs is concerned, I think we know why he played less in those two playoffs.  In 2004, he was a rookie and Doc got cold feet about playing him, even though he was the better option at 2 guard against Reggie.  As for last year, we all know that too: TA was still not mentally prepared to lay it on the line, suffering as he was from the emotional effects of his knee injury.  That, and some guy named James Posey who got all the wing minutes, not to mention the fact that rotations are tightened in the playoffs and TA hadn't earned his spot in that tightened rotation. 
Just so that we are clear, all I stated was the fact that he played less minutes. I never speculated as to the reasons why, that is your own doing SalmonandMashed.

All I said was fact, he played less minutes in the playoffs the two years his teams made it to the playoffs than he did the regular season. The same way I can say that he has had only one season where he had more assists than turnovers and that was last year when he had 114 assists to 109 turnovers. Every other year he has not had more assists than turnovers.

It's the same way I can statistically state that out of all the shooting guards that play more than 15 MPG, Tony Allen has the 5th lowest assist to turnover ratio in the league at 0.72 and is consistently amongst the bottom ten in this category for shooting guards since he entered the league.

I'm not drawing conclusions from those facts, just stating them, people can draw their own conclusions.

Net PER per position:
                    PG        SG        SF         PF
2004-05  +1.8     +1.3       +22.9     N/A
2005-06   -0.9      -5.1        0.0        N/A
2006-07    0.0     +1.2       +3.0      -50.0 
2007-08   -8.8     +2.7       -6.2        0.0
2008-09    0.0     +2.1       -3.0        N/A

Good stuff Nick, thanks for pulling up the net PER stats.  TA's net PER is still 5th best on the team, not bad for a bench player.  To judge the meaningfulness of a stat, it's often helpful to place it in the context of what everyone else on the team is doing.  5th best net PER pretty much settles the argument of who is currently the bench's best player, doesn't it (I took that stat from 82games.com)?  Powe is close, Eddie a little further back, but TA, with the best net PER, scoring average, and steals per game of any bench player, is currently our best bench player, right?  If you can agree with that statement, then it's hard to understand all the hubbub about TA....I mean, if you want to improve the bench, you start with improving the players around the bench's best player, right?  Shouldn't we be having 15-page threads about Eddie or Powe?


I, for one, have never said that Tony isn't this year best bench player, because, he is. But that, I think, is more a statement on the overall quality of our bench than it is a statement about just how good Tony is.

And again, this goes back to what I said this summer when Danny was putting together this bench. I wanted an experienced bench with different components. My dream pick-ups had nothing to do with James Posey. I wanted a solid defensive big with length like Kurt Thomas. I wanted a backcourt player that could add offense and some ball handling, like Roger Mason. I wanted a defensive minded wing, like Matt Barnes or Mikael Pietrus. If a bench like this, not necessarily this group who would have been a dream bench but a bench like this that were veterans, I would have been thrilled about this team chances.

Because of Rondo's and Perk's development I still am convinced this team will repeat but think if the bench had a different makeup this team might have been considered one of the best ever. But Danny's idea of putting together a bench was to sign a lazy project at center, add two rookies(probably his best idea), resign a PG who does more coaching than playing, resign a SG that's a poor shooter and is not the smartest of players, and resign a PG that can't dribble or drive and needs to be passed the ball in the right spots to get his offense.

Not the best of summers for one Danny Ainge.

It sounds like we're pretty much in agreement, surprisingly enough, except for the quality of DA's offseason.  This team is extremely tapped in terms of salary cap #s--we have 3 players making approximately 60 million dollars and as such we're forced to cut corners in other areas.  To DA's credit, he cuts corners extremely well, filling out this team with overachieving 2nd round picks (Powe, Baby, Pruitt, Giddens, Walker) and great young players still on relatively cheap deals (Rondo, who's still on his rookie deal, and Perk, who signed a ridiculously low contract a couple years ago).  So, after losing Posey (who he would have overpaid for in years 1, 2, and 3, but not 4 or 5), DA knew he could bring back Sam, House and TA on cheap, short-year deals, and then bide his time come this season, and pounce on whatever free agent is the most attractive and fills a need of the team as currently constituted.  We now have the money to pounce with and get us a Joe Smith, Marbury, Antoine Walker, PJ Brown, Alonzo Mourning, etc...and until we do (or the months pass and we don't) I'm giving DA an incomplete on his offseason.  With the constitution of this team, he's doing the right thing, which is waiting to see what high-priced, bought-out veteran he can convince to sign with us for short money sometime in Feb/March...

Now, that said, I'd love to have Roger Mason Jr. on this team...that was a great signing for the Spurs.  The rest?  We'd be in the same boat as we are right now, still needing that veteran presence to solidify things out there.  Even with Mason, we'd probably still need a veteran big to round things out.  And there just isn't that much money to go around, especially considering the big time extension Rondo's going to get this offseason.
Folly. Persist.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #189 on: December 30, 2008, 08:21:48 PM »

Offline JBcat

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I've been following the Celtics a long time and I would hardpressed to come up with more than a few players that have been sidetracked with big or minor injuries to start a career as a Celtic.  I just wanted to show people some stats for a few months from the past 2 years.
 
MIN   FG   PCT   3P   PCT   FT   PCT   STL   BLK   TO   PF   OFF   DEF   TOT   AST   PTS
2007-08 season
Numbers for January   20.3   38-83   .458   6-12   .500   32-40   .800   1.1   0.4   1.8   2.4   0.7   1.6   2.3   1.5   7.6

Numbers for February   19.7   40-76   .526   5-15   .333   24-31   .774   1.1   0.5   1.3   2.6   0.5   1.5   1.9   1.4   9.9

Numbers for March   17.0   20-58   .345   0-9   .000   15-21   .714   0.6   0.2   1.2   2.2   0.4   2.1   2.4   1.3   3.9

Numbers for April   20.9   25-65   .385   0-5   .000   31-35   .886   0.3   0.1   1.4   1.8   0.3   2.2   2.6   2.2   9.0

2008-09 season

Numbers for November   19.9   55-104   .529   1-7   .143   34-44   .773   1.1   0.6   1.4   1.9   0.6   1.6   2.1   1.1   9.1

Numbers for December   19.8   32-73   .438   2-8   .250   15-26   .577   1.4   0.1   2.3   2.6   0.3   1.6   1.9   1.4   6.8

I know I really didn't copy and paste this well.  I'll explain what I did here.   We all know about TA's MCL and ACL injury.  Last year Tony tweaked his back sometime in February and I remember that affecting his play.  As you can see his play was building momentum last year averaging 7.6 PPG in January and 9.9 PPG with .526 FG% in February, then dipped to 3.9 PPG with .345FG% in March from the minor setback, and rebounded to 9.0 PPG in April.

Fast forward to this year.   I believe it was reported Tony slightly sprained his ankle after the first 15 games or so.  First can this be confirmed?   In 16 games in November he averaged 9.1 PPG with .529 FG% then in 14 games in December he averaged 6.8 PPG with .438 FG%.

What does this show me?  Even the slightest injury or tweak affects Tony's play as well as obviously the big injuries.  I don't think he can be the type of player that can play well through minor injuries as he relies so much on his athleticism.  However I am totally fine warts and all with Tony when he is physically feeling very good like he was in January, February, and November of this year.  However again the negative part of me says he is always going to be fighting injuries like in March and November while the positive part of me says maybe he will finally turn the corner for good.  I don't know but if he comes up with about 9 PPG shooting a solid %  from the field for the rest of the year I'll be happy with that for a backup wing player.  I really don't think we can do much better than that with the assets we have to trade to upgrade. 

Just wanted to share these monthly stats with everyone...




Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #190 on: December 30, 2008, 08:31:53 PM »

Offline billysan

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Danny can be wrong..
He can only be deffending his mediocre summer
I will have to vote me thinking this.
Yeah, I agree with you Edgar. TP4U

If Danny were Greek we would call him 'Mediocrates' after this offseason.

He should wear a disguise until he gets us better players for the bench. That's my vote. 8)
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #191 on: December 30, 2008, 09:04:22 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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I've been following the Celtics a long time and I would hardpressed to come up with more than a few players that have been sidetracked with big or minor injuries to start a career as a Celtic.  I just wanted to show people some stats for a few months from the past 2 years.
 
MIN   FG   PCT   3P   PCT   FT   PCT   STL   BLK   TO   PF   OFF   DEF   TOT   AST   PTS
2007-08 season
Numbers for January   20.3   38-83   .458   6-12   .500   32-40   .800   1.1   0.4   1.8   2.4   0.7   1.6   2.3   1.5   7.6

Numbers for February   19.7   40-76   .526   5-15   .333   24-31   .774   1.1   0.5   1.3   2.6   0.5   1.5   1.9   1.4   9.9

Numbers for March   17.0   20-58   .345   0-9   .000   15-21   .714   0.6   0.2   1.2   2.2   0.4   2.1   2.4   1.3   3.9

Numbers for April   20.9   25-65   .385   0-5   .000   31-35   .886   0.3   0.1   1.4   1.8   0.3   2.2   2.6   2.2   9.0

2008-09 season

Numbers for November   19.9   55-104   .529   1-7   .143   34-44   .773   1.1   0.6   1.4   1.9   0.6   1.6   2.1   1.1   9.1

Numbers for December   19.8   32-73   .438   2-8   .250   15-26   .577   1.4   0.1   2.3   2.6   0.3   1.6   1.9   1.4   6.8

I know I really didn't copy and paste this well.  I'll explain what I did here.   We all know about TA's MCL and ACL injury.  Last year Tony tweaked his back sometime in February and I remember that affecting his play.  As you can see his play was building momentum last year averaging 7.6 PPG in January and 9.9 PPG with .526 FG% in February, then dipped to 3.9 PPG with .345FG% in March from the minor setback, and rebounded to 9.0 PPG in April.

Fast forward to this year.   I believe it was reported Tony slightly sprained his ankle after the first 15 games or so.  First can this be confirmed?   In 16 games in November he averaged 9.1 PPG with .529 FG% then in 14 games in December he averaged 6.8 PPG with .438 FG%.

What does this show me?  Even the slightest injury or tweak affects Tony's play as well as obviously the big injuries.  I don't think he can be the type of player that can play well through minor injuries as he relies so much on his athleticism.  However I am totally fine warts and all with Tony when he is physically feeling very good like he was in January, February, and November of this year.  However again the negative part of me says he is always going to be fighting injuries like in March and November while the positive part of me says maybe he will finally turn the corner for good.  I don't know but if he comes up with about 9 PPG shooting a solid %  from the field for the rest of the year I'll be happy with that for a backup wing player.  I really don't think we can do much better than that with the assets we have to trade to upgrade. 

Just wanted to share these monthly stats with everyone...

JBCat, great use of stats to show what even minor injuries have done to TA's effectiveness these past 2 seasons.  His ability to come back from minor injuries is a weakness, no doubt, but these stats support the idea that what we've seen from TA this month is injury-related...and therefore we can expect increase productivity in January, assuming no further minor or major injuries.
Folly. Persist.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #192 on: December 30, 2008, 09:21:23 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Danny can be wrong..
He can only be deffending his mediocre summer
I will have to vote me thinking this.
Yeah, I agree with you Edgar. TP4U

If Danny were Greek we would call him 'Mediocrates' after this offseason.

He should wear a disguise until he gets us better players for the bench. That's my vote. 8)

Danny stuck number 17 in those rafters my friend so I might lighten up a bit on Danny and his offseason moves. Do it a few seasons in a row and you might have a legitimate beef. Just because he didn't mortgage our future completely by giving Posey the store doesn't mean he was being stupid. How'd you like the second unit lineup of:

Posey
Giddens
Gabe
Powe
BBD

Especially when the very next year we would lose Powe and BBD because we couldn't afford to resign them. We would legitimately have the worst bench in the NBA. As much as I dislike TA's game he is so much better at this moment than Giddens, and House is a much more complete player than Gabe. Considering there would be no one behind Gabe either we'd be stuck with a scrub behind every single one of these guys.

 

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #193 on: December 30, 2008, 09:25:29 PM »

Offline crownsy

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I think we can agree what went wrong over the offseason. Amid the James Posey coming back (or not to be) speculation, the Celtics lost several opportunities to grab quality free agents that would have bolstered our bench, and kept the owners financially in about the same condition as it currently is. Nick's post touched on this very well. Who'd NOT like to have Roger Mason, Kurt Thomas, and Matt Barnes? We expended our energies in areas that hardly bolstered our bench, in fact it weakened it because they are downgrades to PJ Brown and James Posey. Really, who would feel comfortable enough Patrick O'Bryant to come into a game where the season might be on the line? With Kurt Thomas or PJ Brown, the answer is a confident yes. With POB and TA, a resounding no.

again, you assume those were options not explored, or that they were and the player was willing to play here. a very celtic centered view point. (which of course i share, im just being realistic.)

Barnes for one is pretty much on recored as saying he had no interest in going to a cold weather city unless it was for a much larger contract, so what did you want danny to do there?

But thats off topic, this all spawned from several saying danny got stuck with TA, and i disagree. That has nothing to do with my personal opnion. I think like edgar that danny is wrong in his eval of TA, but we didn't get him back because danny was like "oh man, everyone bailed, i have to have this loser back"

we got him back because the front office and the coaching staff clearly have a different evaluation than most of us have.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #194 on: December 30, 2008, 11:01:18 PM »

Offline Andy Jick

  • Ray Allen
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hate to nitpick, but there was a play in the 2nd quarter against portland where tony allen threw a lob pass into garnett out of the left corner and KG was clearly double (maybe even triple) teamed...result: turnover.

it's stuff like that which causes me to shake my head in disbelief...does he just not see that or do not all the pistons fire inside his noggin?
"It was easier to know it than to explain why I know it."