Author Topic: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing  (Read 11319 times)

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Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2008, 07:54:47 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I dont care about the offensive side but the bench needs to play better defense how many times already this year our starters have left the bench with a 20 point lead and doc has had to put the starters back in because the bench couldnt hold the lead.

  Many of those instances were our reserves playing against the other team's starters.

Well Doc has been a bit wacky with  the subbing lately, we've had some really really "odd" combo's out their that are horrible when they play together (Scal and BBD, both who are dead weight for scoring) and this causes powe and house to take more of the load, hence more mistakes. BBD is better then Scal on the offensive, and I like his defense but one non-scorer is enough. The only thing that sort of peeves me is when doc waits a while to call the time out when a team is axing the lead down. I'm still a big supporter of the EH-RA-TA-Powe-BBD line up though.

  My point was when we're up by 20 and Doc yanks the starters the other team doesn't empty their bench. They try and get back into the game. I'm not excusing whatever happened last night (I missed the bad stretch in the 4th but thought they played fairly well in the 2nd) but you can't always expect our bench players to maintain a lead against the other team's starters.

Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2008, 10:28:53 AM »

Offline Birdbrain

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Not sure it's disappointing they all seem to play their roles of course they did have a bad night last night and without TA they look much worse.  They'll probably add another big later in the season but, there aren't going to be any trades so I guess this will be topic that will pop up a few more times throughout the season.
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Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2008, 10:30:38 AM »

Offline gkiteisscal

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POB should get NO more burn.  That was dispicable last night.  I have never seen such inept play at any level as I did last night.

The Scal, BBD, Powe front court is a horrible experiment & hopefully it ends with the return of TA.

This bench really misses TA.  He can get in the paint, w/o him out there no one on that bench can penatrate.  When he penatrates it does tw things.  It forces the D to shift giving House a chance to get open behind the line.  It also allows Powe to do what Powe does best and thats bang to O-boards and put up a bunch of junk points.  TA also provides a perimiter defender, that second unit has "decent" perimiter defense but does not have a play maker.  TA is madeningly inconsistent but I'd rather have that than watch the current bench rotation.

I also think that they need another big.  Things haven't changed since last year. BBD and Powe are still undersized & they are almost two guys filling one roll.  PJ was a great compliment to that unit & hopefully he is keeping himself in game shape.  If not Danny has to do some juggling and pull the trigger to bring in a vet big. 

I do not think the bench is bad, or even disappointing. In fact I think that Posey's loss is not a pronounced as I thought it was going to be.  Remeber the bench was thin last season & he was around. Disappointing no.  Incomplete yes.

Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2008, 11:02:16 AM »

Offline thecaptain34

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I dont think it's that great of a sign how badly the bench misses tony allen, or how most people are saying it misses tony allen...TA isnt trustworthy, isnt that good and is out of control, every good play he makes is followed by a series of bad plays...if thats our best bench player and the rest of the guys are as inept as they were last night without him, we're in trouble.

Now The Blazers and other teams also make it a conscious effort to shut down our bench(when you put your minds to this, its a pretty easy task), everyone knows how important it is to our team, and they feel if they can at least shut down the bench then they got a chance.

..2nd unit is missing a true leader and scal and POB dont belong anywhere near the court
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 02:05:26 PM by thecaptain34 »

Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2008, 12:32:34 PM »

Offline expobear

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Way overreacting.  The bench has played so much better than any other second unit in the league.  

I disagree with that.

For instance, the Celtics are 15th in the NBA in points per game, and 14th in points per 100 possessions.  The Celts' reserves are 9th in terms of "+/-", with 34 more points scored than their counterparts.

Those are respectable numbers, but not close to "much better than any other second unit in the league".  (Less respectable:  Celtics bench players rank second from the bottom in terms of assists, and are in the bottom ten in rebounds and blocked shots.)

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I have to say you Celtic fans are extremely spoiled.  The Celtics are 19-2 and you're worried about a 20 point lead dropping to 11 because of poor bench play?  Geez, try being a Warrior fan and I doubt you'd complain too much about the "shortcomings" of your Celtics.  :)

That said, I'd say you have to throw out most of the so-called bench stats that pertain to the Celtics.  Most teams in the NBA don't have 3 legitimate superstars in their starting line-up like the Celtics do. Therefore, you're going to more than likely have stronger 6th and 7th men coming off the bench for other NBA teams, at least statistically, because these guys will probably get more playing time. I know Chris likes to state how inconsistent the Celtics bench can be. Well, with the Celtics, individual bench stats are less important than the one stat Celtic fans should be paying most attention to.....wins and losses.  The role of the Celtics bench is not to get good individual stats, but truly one of a team role to keep the game close so that the starters can finish the deal in the end. The Celtics' bench has been quite successful, if you look at it from this perspective.


 

Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2008, 01:02:58 PM »

Offline tb727

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I have to say you Celtic fans are extremely spoiled.  The Celtics are 19-2 and you're worried about a 20 point lead dropping to 11 because of poor bench play?  Geez, try being a Warrior fan and I doubt you'd complain too much about the "shortcomings" of your Celtics.  :)

That said, I'd say you have to throw out most of the so-called bench stats that pertain to the Celtics.  Most teams in the NBA don't have 3 legitimate superstars in their starting line-up like the Celtics do. Therefore, you're going to more than likely have stronger 6th and 7th men coming off the bench for other NBA teams, at least statistically, because these guys will probably get more playing time. I know Chris likes to state how inconsistent the Celtics bench can be. Well, with the Celtics, individual bench stats are less important than the one stat Celtic fans should be paying most attention to.....wins and losses.  The role of the Celtics bench is not to get good individual stats, but truly one of a team role to keep the game close so that the starters can finish the deal in the end. The Celtics' bench has been quite successful, if you look at it from this perspective.


 

This is quite true and I see your perspective as a Warriors fan.  However the Celts are trying to win it all and if and when Perkins or Garnett picks up 2 quick fouls in the first quarter against the Lakers on Christmas and we have to have 6'7 Leon Powe or 6'7 Glen Davis guard Bynum or Gasol for extended minutes, we're in a lot of trouble.

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Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2008, 01:06:57 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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Tony is the best player on the second unit and he's been out.  The bench was very productive before that.  It will be when he comes back.

Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2008, 01:14:45 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I'm wondering what the anti-bench crowd is comparing our bench to.

Last year blew a ton of double-digit teams. Last year our bench regularly was completely inept at scoring. I can't quite figure out what people are expecting.

Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2008, 01:15:34 PM »

Offline ACF

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Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2008, 01:41:15 PM »

Offline ForexPirate

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certainly we miss tony allen out there

Powe and House are real good out there.

*Doc should have had the forsight to put Pruitt in there in Allen's absence for scoring punch.  He is still the same Doc, putting a ring on his finger hasn't made hiom a better coach.

>>>The second unit is really getting beat on the boards.

We shouldn't have to wait for an injury to an undersized power forward to see if POB can bring it.  Why do we always have to wait for an injury to happen to see if a bench player has talent (ie: gomes, powe). 

The second unit needs more size either see if POB can do the job or go get someone.  Scalabrine does not count as more size.

Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2008, 01:49:16 PM »

Offline ForexPirate

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also it is stupid to have an injured paul pierce anchoring the second unit - shouldn't we anchor that unit with someone that isn't injured like ray allen?  Need to buy Paul some rest so his hand gets better.

Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2008, 02:10:07 PM »

Offline thecaptain34

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also it is stupid to have an injured paul pierce anchoring the second unit - shouldn't we anchor that unit with someone that isn't injured like ray allen?  Need to buy Paul some rest so his hand gets better.

I agree, never quite understand Doc when he leaves Ray Or PP out there with the 2nd unit...it seems like he always leaves the wrong guy out there everytime...when ray allen starts the game hot and is playing well, he leaves pierce out there to anchor the 2nd unit and vice versa..makes no sense
I also gotta say, I think I prefer when Ray Allen is out there with the 2nd unit instead of Pierce

Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2008, 02:14:02 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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also it is stupid to have an injured paul pierce anchoring the second unit - shouldn't we anchor that unit with someone that isn't injured like ray allen?  Need to buy Paul some rest so his hand gets better.

I agree, never quite understand Doc when he leaves Ray Or PP out there with the 2nd unit...it seems like he always leaves the wrong guy out there everytime...when ray allen starts the game hot and is playing well, he leaves pierce out there to anchor the 2nd unit and vice versa..makes no sense
I also gotta say, I think I prefer when Ray Allen is out there with the 2nd unit instead of Pierce

I think the reason this usually happens is because the person that is hot usually stays on the floor first while the other goes to the bench earlier. In the 2nd quarter the hot guy goes to rest, and the one that went to the bench first returns... he usually ends up playing with most of the 2nd unit more.  It's probably also a tool to try and get this particular guy going... sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2008, 02:38:26 PM »

Offline JBcat

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Overall I am pleased with our bench so far this year.   Doc has mentioned this and I agree that the bench probably has saved us from at least 5 or 6 losses this year.   Remember the first 10 games or so where our starters got off to such a slow start and our bench got us back in the games???

The combo of Powe and Davis for the most part have played well together even against bigger teams like Houston.  In the playoffs when the rotations tighten I could see KG sliding over to the 5 more with Powe at the 4 so I'm not too concerned right now.  I hope nothing drastic is done at the expense of losing Giddens or Walker in a trade as I think one of them could help us in the stretch run.  I think we can at least wait until mid January before we starting thinking trades or buyout pickups. 

Re: Our bench is incomplete and disappointing
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2008, 02:41:46 PM »

Offline KJR

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It's pretty simple.

It starts with defense.

And defense starts with PG defense and stopping the ball.

That makes the rotations down low much easier for Powe and Davis.

No one on the second unit (except perhaps TA) can stop the ball.

Either play Pruitt, or if he can't get it done, the C's need to make a trade by April.  It's that simple.  This was the biggest liability last year.  It's the biggest liability this year.

The opposing PG initiates the plays and breaks down our second unit.  Stop that, and the second unit's D will improve immediately.

I agree with Sean Grande (sp?).

House is a 2.  TA is a 3.  Limit their roles and they will thrive.

House's FG percentage is way down.  I'll bet he improves 5-10% if he has a better defined role.  Knock down open 3s.  When he's creating off the dribble for himself or playing a 2 man game, his percentages go way down.

TA should be slashing from 16-18 feet.  Period.  He's very effective going to the basket.  Four to five dribbles max.  He should not be dribbling around the perimeter or bringing the ball up the floor.  More dribbles for TA means more turnovers.  Also don't want him taking long range jump shots.  That's not his strength.

Powe is good at the 4.  He needs to work on his FT shooting.  Right now, the smart play is to foul him every time he gets the ball in the post.  36% chance of making 2 FTs versus 50%+ from the field.  He can add a point or two to the Celtics every game by simply getting his FT % up to the low 70's.  He takes the second most FTs on the Celtics, so this is a priority.

Powe also needs to work on throwing out of the low post.  In 2 years, I'm not sure I've ever seen him throw a pass back out of the low post.  If it's single coverage, he drives to the hoop.  If it's double coverage, he throws it out, and around the horn to Eddie or Tony for a drive or open 3.  Doc needs to work on this with him.  Into the post and back out.  Over and over.  Teams have begun doubling him, and fouling him, and it will limit his effectiveness going forward.

Scal needs to be off the court.  He played 3-4 good games beginning with the Knicks game.  Since then, he's had about 5 bad games in a row.  He's played 4-16 minutes/game, and his stat line usually reads 0 points, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals, 1 turnover and 2 PFs.  He's a good perimeter defender.  But teams are iso-ing on him and taking him down low.  Around the basket, he's not so good.  It allows other teams to get on a run.  He needs to be taken out of the regular rotation.

BBD has played some good games and some bad games, but right now he looks lost.  He's not making the hustle plays, he's not rebounding, he's not getting charges.  I'm not sure what his role is on offense, or even where he is supposed to be playing.  I agree that it would be better to have a bigger backup C, but I think he's serviceable if the rest of the 2nd unit is solid.  (The terrible thing last night was that he was letting rebounds fall to the floor in the middle of the key right in front of him and he wasn't even moving to get them.  I was practically screaming at the TV: get the ball Davis.)

I don't have an opinion on POB.  He has more offensive skill and coordination than many big men, and can knock down shots.  He has a hook shot, and is good on the alley-oop.  He does look soft on defense, and a bit lost.  But he has the potential to block shots and rebound.  He's a 12th man project.  I have no problem with that.  He's not the reason our bench has not played well.  He hasn't played many minutes.

Yes, we're all spoiled and we're nitpicking at this point.  We already know we have one of the top 3 teams.  We're looking toward the playoffs and Cleveland and LA.  We have the best starting lineup.  We're looking to improve the bench, so we can win on the road and beat Cleveland and LA.

The first thing to do is get a backup PG defender.  Someone who can fill the Rondo role.  Someone who can stop the ball, get some steals, and bring the ball up the court.  Someone who can blow by the other team's backup PG.  Someone who can help space the floor.  This gets EH wide open for 3s and his shooting % goes way up.  This gets TA open for drives to the basket and FTs.  This makes it tough to double Leon, and gives Leon a target for passes out of the post.

If Gabe can do it, give him a chance.  If not, we need to make a trade.  No one else currently on the team can fill this role.

After that, the team can decide on BBD and whether we need another big.  With a proper backup PG, I think that becomes much less crucial.  Fix one thing first, and then see how BBD and POB do.  There are very few backup 7 footers who are going to come in with the 2nd unit and dominate us and have a huge game.  There are, on the other hand, a lot of backup PGs and SGs who are going to blow by our second unit and get lots of easy looks.  This is the first thing to fix.