Author Topic: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.  (Read 4764 times)

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McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« on: November 22, 2008, 09:07:11 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I said it draft day and now after watching Kevin Love play professional basketball for the second time this year, I'll say it again. Kevin McHale was an idiot for trading O. J. Mayo for Kevin Love.

What made him think, judging by what he saw these two players do in the Pac-10 last year, that Kevin Love would be the better professional NBA player or even a better fit of a player for the Minnesota Timberwolves? Love looked, to be polite, bad both times I've seen him play. Randy Wittman, maybe one of the poorest excuses for an NBA coach in quite some time, has decided to place Love on the exterior of the offense thinking this will open things up for Al Jefferson. Yeah, here's the problem, Love can't hit an outside shot to save his life this year.

Love had a nice 15-17 footer in college. He is not, however, an 18-24 foot outside shooter. He's taking 35% of his shots from outside with a putrid 22%eFG% His 36.9% FG% and 11% 3PT% is dismal.

Love appears slow and pretty much a tweener big guy. Too short and not long enough or physical enough for a center. Not nearly close to being athletic enough for a PF.

Compare his numbers to the ROY numbers that Mayo is currently putting up on a surprising team in Memphis.

              PTS      REB    AST     STL     BLK     FG%       FT%        3pt%
Mayo    20.0      4.8       2.3       1.33    0.08    43.5%     89.5%     40.0%
Love     8.8        6.2       1.2       0.55    0.82    36.9%     85.0%     11.1%

I really don't care how early in the season or their respective careers it is. Mayo showed huge amounts more pro potential in college and is exhibiting the same thing this year on the pro court. I think Mayo might just be the best talent and player to come out of last year's class and he fell into Kevin McHale's lap. And what did McHale do? He traded him out of town for what amounts to a third string PF on his club.

What a colossal bonehead of a move. McHale's Love love will ultimately be his worst move in a managerial career of full of horrible moves.

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 09:12:48 AM »

Offline celticmaestro

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Agreed. Mayo is going to be a star in this league. While I think that Love will have a very good career and may indeed be an all-star, he wont top Mayo. Having said that, I can see where McHale was coming from, he already has Randy Foye who's a combo guard and he can see a front-line of Love/Jefferson potentially dominating further down the line. Still would have kept Mayo and moved Foye or Telfair.

Side note - this draft class has surprised me. Thus far, I would say the best since the LeBron draft. I know it's early, but that's my first impression.

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 09:43:50 AM »

Offline Redz

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There are about a dozen rookies (from the `08 draft) who are playing better than Love right now.  In fairness it looks like Minnesota is trying to fit a square per in a round hole, but the guy did not look good out there last night.  That whole team looked lousy though.  The Celts D may have had something to with that as well.
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Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2008, 09:57:12 AM »

Offline dark_lord

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Compare his numbers to the ROY numbers that Mayo is currently putting up on a surprising team in Memphis.

              PTS      REB    AST     STL     BLK     FG%       FT%        3pt%
Mayo    20.0      4.8       2.3       1.33    0.08    43.5%     89.5%     40.0%
Love     8.8        6.2       1.2       0.55    0.82    36.9%     85.0%     11.1%

nick, while i agree with everything you stated, there are two important factors with the differences in the numbers.

mayo is averaging 38.8 min per game to loves 24.1

the other thing is memphis is running their team thru mayo, while love is a filling a role (even though it is unsure what that role is, lol)

again, i agree with your stance, just thought id point these things out

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2008, 10:17:00 AM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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I said it draft day and now after watching Kevin Love play professional basketball for the second time this year, I'll say it again. Kevin McHale was an idiot for trading O. J. Mayo for Kevin Love.

What made him think, judging by what he saw these two players do in the Pac-10 last year, that Kevin Love would be the better professional NBA player or even a better fit of a player for the Minnesota Timberwolves? Love looked, to be polite, bad both times I've seen him play. Randy Wittman, maybe one of the poorest excuses for an NBA coach in quite some time, has decided to place Love on the exterior of the offense thinking this will open things up for Al Jefferson. Yeah, here's the problem, Love can't hit an outside shot to save his life this year.

Love had a nice 15-17 footer in college. He is not, however, an 18-24 foot outside shooter. He's taking 35% of his shots from outside with a putrid 22%eFG% His 36.9% FG% and 11% 3PT% is dismal.

Love appears slow and pretty much a tweener big guy. Too short and not long enough or physical enough for a center. Not nearly close to being athletic enough for a PF.

Compare his numbers to the ROY numbers that Mayo is currently putting up on a surprising team in Memphis.

              PTS      REB    AST     STL     BLK     FG%       FT%        3pt%
Mayo    20.0      4.8       2.3       1.33    0.08    43.5%     89.5%     40.0%
Love     8.8        6.2       1.2       0.55    0.82    36.9%     85.0%     11.1%

I really don't care how early in the season or their respective careers it is. Mayo showed huge amounts more pro potential in college and is exhibiting the same thing this year on the pro court. I think Mayo might just be the best talent and player to come out of last year's class and he fell into Kevin McHale's lap. And what did McHale do? He traded him out of town for what amounts to a third string PF on his club.

What a colossal bonehead of a move. McHale's Love love will ultimately be his worst move in a managerial career of full of horrible moves.

Nick, I think you are MASSIVELY jumping the gun on this one...Love is never going to be the scorer Mayo is, but his all-around game, smarts, and playing position in the frontcourt will make him a fine complement to Al Jefferson in time.

What you are seeing now is early-season inconsistency from a player who does not have the luxury of out of this world athleticism to help make up for the adjustment he is making to his role and the pace of the NBA game - in time, he will make this adjustment and become more consistent.

Love has had some outstanding moments in the NBA already as well as the poor. He is not knocking down his face-up shot, which to me is PURELY a comfortability thing - Love's 15-17 foot shot is money in the bank and will eventually create an outstanding high/low combo with Jefferson - having a duo like that in the front court will pay dividends in the long run.

Also, Minny got Mike Miller in this deal as well and he is suppose to be filling the wing scorer role that made it easier to make this trade. Right now, Miller isn't asserting himself enough and none of Minny's other perimeter players are scorers other than McCants. Gomes is having an uncharacteristically poor start to his 4th season and Randy Foye just isn't a dynamic scorer in the NBA.

Minny needs a go-to perimeter wing to complement the Jefferson/Love front court, but that is the easiest position to fill in the NBA and the team has the pieces to make a trade, the cap room to sign a FA, and the draft spot to take a lotto pick, (HELLO DeMar DeRozen!!!)

Kevin Love, IMO, will be a 17/10/4 PF who you can run the offense through - like Brad Miller - while Mayo will be a 25/5/5 PG/SG type. Mayo will be a bigger "star" but Love is going to be a great front court complement to Big Al and Minny should have no problems acquiring the perimeter wing they need to make the trade work in their favor.

At the end of the day, I don't think Mayo is such a prodigious talent that Minny can pass up a deal that solidifies their C/PF position for the next 10 years while adding a vet wing, (Miller) to boot.

When you focus on long term rebuilding strategy and look at the wealth of wing talent in the area Minny will be drafting in, its sound strategy. Trades aren't always about the one-for-one exchange of players - not when an organization is trying to build an entire nucleus.

Mayo is very nice, but Love is a player too and the odds favor grabbing a starting PF before a starting SG based on FA cost of each position, talent available, current roster makeup, and percent chance of adding a wing of comparable talent...

...if Minny gets DeRozen, Holiday, Evens, or Harden in next year's draft, they will have the scoring they need to complement Jefferson/Love...Jefferson makes the caliber of wing player necissary a lot easier to find...and Mayo will be pining for that dominant big long after Minny has gone into fine-tuning mode - unless you're a big fan of Darrel Arthur!

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2008, 10:26:25 AM »

Offline Andy Jick

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nice thread...very true.  i made this same comment over on another thread before seeing this one.  mchale will eventually have to trade himself out of this mistake.
"It was easier to know it than to explain why I know it."

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2008, 10:29:16 AM »

Offline libermaniac

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The main problem I see with a Love / Jefferson PF/C combo is that both of these guys are undersized and poor defenders for their positions.  Not gonna win with such a porous inside interior defense.

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2008, 10:36:43 AM »

Offline cornbreadsmart

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i love mchale. i feel he got a bum rap. what can ya do when the evil stern gets all personal.the punishment for the whole joe smith thing was so overboard.it's a wonder the franchise could even stay afloat. this last move looks pretty bad. everyone loved the randy foye pick when it happened thgough. foye suuuucks. they need to get anyone else handling the ball. mchale also dumped gerald greenn which may come back to bite him too. he at the very least looks like a good asset. 

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2008, 10:58:32 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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The main problem I see with a Love / Jefferson PF/C combo is that both of these guys are undersized and poor defenders for their positions.  Not gonna win with such a porous inside interior defense.
The scary thing is that Jefferson is that teams best defender right now.

Thats a bad sign for how good your team will be.

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2008, 11:38:33 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I said it draft day and now after watching Kevin Love play professional basketball for the second time this year, I'll say it again. Kevin McHale was an idiot for trading O. J. Mayo for Kevin Love.

What made him think, judging by what he saw these two players do in the Pac-10 last year, that Kevin Love would be the better professional NBA player or even a better fit of a player for the Minnesota Timberwolves? Love looked, to be polite, bad both times I've seen him play. Randy Wittman, maybe one of the poorest excuses for an NBA coach in quite some time, has decided to place Love on the exterior of the offense thinking this will open things up for Al Jefferson. Yeah, here's the problem, Love can't hit an outside shot to save his life this year.

Love had a nice 15-17 footer in college. He is not, however, an 18-24 foot outside shooter. He's taking 35% of his shots from outside with a putrid 22%eFG% His 36.9% FG% and 11% 3PT% is dismal.

Love appears slow and pretty much a tweener big guy. Too short and not long enough or physical enough for a center. Not nearly close to being athletic enough for a PF.

Compare his numbers to the ROY numbers that Mayo is currently putting up on a surprising team in Memphis.

              PTS      REB    AST     STL     BLK     FG%       FT%        3pt%
Mayo    20.0      4.8       2.3       1.33    0.08    43.5%     89.5%     40.0%
Love     8.8        6.2       1.2       0.55    0.82    36.9%     85.0%     11.1%

I really don't care how early in the season or their respective careers it is. Mayo showed huge amounts more pro potential in college and is exhibiting the same thing this year on the pro court. I think Mayo might just be the best talent and player to come out of last year's class and he fell into Kevin McHale's lap. And what did McHale do? He traded him out of town for what amounts to a third string PF on his club.

What a colossal bonehead of a move. McHale's Love love will ultimately be his worst move in a managerial career of full of horrible moves.

Nick, I think you are MASSIVELY jumping the gun on this one...Love is never going to be the scorer Mayo is, but his all-around game, smarts, and playing position in the frontcourt will make him a fine complement to Al Jefferson in time.

What you are seeing now is early-season inconsistency from a player who does not have the luxury of out of this world athleticism to help make up for the adjustment he is making to his role and the pace of the NBA game - in time, he will make this adjustment and become more consistent.

Love has had some outstanding moments in the NBA already as well as the poor. He is not knocking down his face-up shot, which to me is PURELY a comfortability thing - Love's 15-17 foot shot is money in the bank and will eventually create an outstanding high/low combo with Jefferson - having a duo like that in the front court will pay dividends in the long run.

Also, Minny got Mike Miller in this deal as well and he is suppose to be filling the wing scorer role that made it easier to make this trade. Right now, Miller isn't asserting himself enough and none of Minny's other perimeter players are scorers other than McCants. Gomes is having an uncharacteristically poor start to his 4th season and Randy Foye just isn't a dynamic scorer in the NBA.

Minny needs a go-to perimeter wing to complement the Jefferson/Love front court, but that is the easiest position to fill in the NBA and the team has the pieces to make a trade, the cap room to sign a FA, and the draft spot to take a lotto pick, (HELLO DeMar DeRozen!!!)

Kevin Love, IMO, will be a 17/10/4 PF who you can run the offense through - like Brad Miller - while Mayo will be a 25/5/5 PG/SG type. Mayo will be a bigger "star" but Love is going to be a great front court complement to Big Al and Minny should have no problems acquiring the perimeter wing they need to make the trade work in their favor.

At the end of the day, I don't think Mayo is such a prodigious talent that Minny can pass up a deal that solidifies their C/PF position for the next 10 years while adding a vet wing, (Miller) to boot.

When you focus on long term rebuilding strategy and look at the wealth of wing talent in the area Minny will be drafting in, its sound strategy. Trades aren't always about the one-for-one exchange of players - not when an organization is trying to build an entire nucleus.

Mayo is very nice, but Love is a player too and the odds favor grabbing a starting PF before a starting SG based on FA cost of each position, talent available, current roster makeup, and percent chance of adding a wing of comparable talent...

...if Minny gets DeRozen, Holiday, Evens, or Harden in next year's draft, they will have the scoring they need to complement Jefferson/Love...Jefferson makes the caliber of wing player necissary a lot easier to find...and Mayo will be pining for that dominant big long after Minny has gone into fine-tuning mode - unless you're a big fan of Darrel Arthur!
Bill while I always enjoy your insight and find your basketball knowledge to be informed, I have to say I think you are all wrong on this one. McHale is a bad judge of talent and this will be the second time he's traded a corner franchise player for a mid level NBA talent at best.

Doesn't anyone remember that he drafted Brandon Roy and then traded him for Randy Foye? Now he let's go of Mayo for Love?

I'm sorry but I just don't see how anyone can look at this trade as a good one. As dark lord so aptly pointed out, Memphis is running their offense through Mayo and Love is a peripheral player. Just the fact that Mayo is so good that an offense can be run through him says all I need to know regarding who will be the better player years later.

Love will eventually be an okay player. Mayo will be a star. Roy is a star. Foye can't start for one of the worst teams in the league. Mayo will eventually be a heck of a defensive player, probably annually on one of the All-Defensive teams. Love will never be a very good defender.

Love just doesn't have the tools to warrant a pick that high. McHale fell in love with a very poor man's version of himself. Bad choice and he will pay the price with his job sooner or later.

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2008, 01:00:17 PM »

Offline Bankshot

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I thought the Mayo/Love trade was dumb when it happened.  Big Al needs to be paired with a possible future all-star, at any position but his own.  I was really excited for Big Al when they drafted Mayo, but really p---ed off when he traded him for Love.  I thought Mayo and Big Al could be a great combo in future years.  Now Big Al is once again the lone potential all-star on his team. :(
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2008, 04:37:30 PM »

Offline Andy Jick

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all i know is that i'm thankful those guys are no longer celtics...they may have "potential" out the wazoo, but watching them play last night was painful.  on paper they should be better than what they are, but they don't look like a "team" but instead a collection of individuals that are out for themselves.

what i appreciate most about the celtics is that they are a collection of stars who have latched onto the "team" concept, each making necessary adjustments.  give doc credit, he's the hub of this thing and the "ubuntu" thing he's been able to create and sustain is a thing of genius...

mchale might as well step down and head off for the lake with his fishing pole...the t'wolves are a long way from competing for a playoff spot, let alone a championship.
"It was easier to know it than to explain why I know it."

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2008, 04:50:41 PM »

Offline makaveli

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I like him, he is very intelligent player, and will develop into a solid starter.
what doesn't kill you makes you stronger

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2008, 05:08:08 PM »

Offline Big Ticket

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I said it draft day and now after watching Kevin Love play professional basketball for the second time this year, I'll say it again. Kevin McHale was an idiot for trading O. J. Mayo for Kevin Love.

What made him think, judging by what he saw these two players do in the Pac-10 last year, that Kevin Love would be the better professional NBA player or even a better fit of a player for the Minnesota Timberwolves? Love looked, to be polite, bad both times I've seen him play. Randy Wittman, maybe one of the poorest excuses for an NBA coach in quite some time, has decided to place Love on the exterior of the offense thinking this will open things up for Al Jefferson. Yeah, here's the problem, Love can't hit an outside shot to save his life this year.

Love had a nice 15-17 footer in college. He is not, however, an 18-24 foot outside shooter. He's taking 35% of his shots from outside with a putrid 22%eFG% His 36.9% FG% and 11% 3PT% is dismal.

Love appears slow and pretty much a tweener big guy. Too short and not long enough or physical enough for a center. Not nearly close to being athletic enough for a PF.

Compare his numbers to the ROY numbers that Mayo is currently putting up on a surprising team in Memphis.

              PTS      REB    AST     STL     BLK     FG%       FT%        3pt%
Mayo    20.0      4.8       2.3       1.33    0.08    43.5%     89.5%     40.0%
Love     8.8        6.2       1.2       0.55    0.82    36.9%     85.0%     11.1%

I really don't care how early in the season or their respective careers it is. Mayo showed huge amounts more pro potential in college and is exhibiting the same thing this year on the pro court. I think Mayo might just be the best talent and player to come out of last year's class and he fell into Kevin McHale's lap. And what did McHale do? He traded him out of town for what amounts to a third string PF on his club.

What a colossal bonehead of a move. McHale's Love love will ultimately be his worst move in a managerial career of full of horrible moves.

As bad as the move was, it is hard for me to imagine any "move" that will be as horrible and despicable as the Joe Smith debacle.  Just another think that so many people conveniently forget about when labeling KG as a career "loser".

When the Wolves lost those 1st round picks, everyone and their mother KNEW that it was a death sentence.  You can't compete in the NBA without 1st rounders, especially in such an undesirable free agent location.  The fact that KG consistently put up 50 wins seasons despite is just incredible.


"It ain't about me.  It's about us."  - KG, interview with John Thompson, 2005 All Star Game.

Re: McHale's big mistake: Too much Love love.
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2008, 06:17:46 PM »

Offline goCeltics

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i remember when ppl where saying how much better bassy was than b. roy at the same stage a couple of years ago, comparing stats like after 10 games.

Btw i rather rondo than either of those two anyway.