Author Topic: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)  (Read 12457 times)

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Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« on: November 20, 2008, 12:46:10 PM »

Offline Chris

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Udonis Haslem is a role player and never has been more than that. Antoine Walker has always been a good all around player. You cant compare the two players other than they both play PF.

No one in their right basketball mind can question whether Toine was ever "good". He was very talented player in this league for quite a while and his career was ruined because he was the first piece of a rebuilding franchise. He never had a veteran to take him under his wing. Toine was forced to grow up too quick and it hurt him in the long run.

Walker was a good player for his time, but wouldn't survive in today's NBA.  The game is too quick, the defenses are too complex, the players are too strong and athletic.  I'm afraid to say that as good as he was, he just wouldn't fit in against today's far superior talent. 

So "3-Time Allstar" Walker(and not the shell of himself we are seeing these days) wouldn't be successful these days 'cause of those reasons and not 'cause teams wouldn't let him be the man or anything LOGICAL like that?    Nice thinking there, larry. ::) 



Sure he was a "3-Time Allstar" when he played, but times have changed.  In Walker's heyday he was playing with guys like Alton Lister and Frank Brickowski... and going up against inferior competition like Mark West and Fred Roberts.   Bottom line... I'd like to see a Steve Scheffler defend a Dwight Howard if you get my drift.  Different time, different era, different league.  It's too big, strong and athletic now.  The game is too complex.  The defenses are too evolved.  It's not your older brother's NBA anymore.  Walker wouldn't stand a chance.   It's not even the same game anymore... all sorts of rule changes.  Like Rule 2 Section IV on block/charge clarification... or Rule 13 Section I on instant replay additions.   

Times have changed.  We can honor Antoine for being a solid player for his generation, but lets not get ridiculous... Walker would be outclassed by today's players.

You make it sound like he was shooting into peach baskets or something. 

No kidding.  In 2000-2001 and 2001-2002, when Walker was really in his prime, and had two of his best overall seasons, he was going up against guys like Garnett, McDyess, Brand, Dirk, Duncan, Jamison, Webber, Rasheed, and J. Oneal all in their primes.  I don't know, but I think that is pretty comparable competition and athleticism to what is out there now.

Webber?  Are you talking about the guy on NBA TV post game shows?   Times have changed.  This isn't your older brother's NBA anymore.

I am talking about the guy who was one of the best players in NBA history, who averaged 27pts, 11rbs, 4ast in 2000-2001.  I take him in his prime over just about any big man playing right now.

Hogwash.  Chris Webber couldn't survive in today's NBA.  He tried last year and averaged 3.9 points and 3.6 rebounds.  And I bet if you asked him he'd say, "The game is just too big, strong, athletic and fast for me these days.  I can't survive in today's NBA.  I was a good player for my generation, but... this isn't your older brother's NBA anymore".   Just like Walker the game passed them by.

No, he couldn't survive last year because he is old and had bad knees.  I guarantee he be just as dominant in "Today's NBA" as he was 8 years ago, if he was still in his prime. 

Look at guys like Al Jefferson, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Zach Randolph, Chris Kaman, Pau Gasol, etc. being so successful in todays NBA, despite the fact that none of those guys are as athletic as Webber was in his prime?

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 12:46:13 PM »

Offline Redz

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I'm starting this as an off shoot to a debate in the Twoine thread...LarBrd33 contends that guys like Antoine and Chris Webber (in their prime) could not cut in today's NBA

Here's the genesis of the discussion

Udonis Haslem is a role player and never has been more than that. Antoine Walker has always been a good all around player. You cant compare the two players other than they both play PF.

No one in their right basketball mind can question whether Toine was ever "good". He was very talented player in this league for quite a while and his career was ruined because he was the first piece of a rebuilding franchise. He never had a veteran to take him under his wing. Toine was forced to grow up too quick and it hurt him in the long run.

Walker was a good player for his time, but wouldn't survive in today's NBA.  The game is too quick, the defenses are too complex, the players are too strong and athletic.  I'm afraid to say that as good as he was, he just wouldn't fit in against today's far superior talent. 

So "3-Time Allstar" Walker(and not the shell of himself we are seeing these days) wouldn't be successful these days 'cause of those reasons and not 'cause teams wouldn't let him be the man or anything LOGICAL like that?    Nice thinking there, larry. ::) 



Sure he was a "3-Time Allstar" when he played, but times have changed.  In Walker's heyday he was playing with guys like Alton Lister and Frank Brickowski... and going up against inferior competition like Mark West and Fred Roberts.   Bottom line... I'd like to see a Steve Scheffler defend a Dwight Howard if you get my drift.  Different time, different era, different league.  It's too big, strong and athletic now.  The game is too complex.  The defenses are too evolved.  It's not your older brother's NBA anymore.  Walker wouldn't stand a chance.   It's not even the same game anymore... all sorts of rule changes.  Like Rule 2 Section IV on block/charge clarification... or Rule 13 Section I on instant replay additions.   

Times have changed.  We can honor Antoine for being a solid player for his generation, but lets not get ridiculous... Walker would be outclassed by today's players.

You make it sound like he was shooting into peach baskets or something. 

No kidding.  In 2000-2001 and 2001-2002, when Walker was really in his prime, and had two of his best overall seasons, he was going up against guys like Garnett, McDyess, Brand, Dirk, Duncan, Jamison, Webber, Rasheed, and J. Oneal all in their primes.  I don't know, but I think that is pretty comparable competition and athleticism to what is out there now.

Webber?  Are you talking about the guy on NBA TV post game shows?   Times have changed.  This isn't your older brother's NBA anymore.

I am talking about the guy who was one of the best players in NBA history, who averaged 27pts, 11rbs, 4ast in 2000-2001.  I take him in his prime over just about any big man playing right now.

Hogwash.  Chris Webber couldn't survive in today's NBA.  He tried last year and averaged 3.9 points and 3.6 rebounds.  And I bet if you asked him he'd say, "The game is just too big, strong, athletic and fast for me these days.  I can't survive in today's NBA.  I was a good player for my generation, but... this isn't your older brother's NBA anymore".   Just like Walker the game passed them by.
Yup

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2008, 12:47:26 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Udonis Haslem is a role player and never has been more than that. Antoine Walker has always been a good all around player. You cant compare the two players other than they both play PF.

No one in their right basketball mind can question whether Toine was ever "good". He was very talented player in this league for quite a while and his career was ruined because he was the first piece of a rebuilding franchise. He never had a veteran to take him under his wing. Toine was forced to grow up too quick and it hurt him in the long run.

Walker was a good player for his time, but wouldn't survive in today's NBA.  The game is too quick, the defenses are too complex, the players are too strong and athletic.  I'm afraid to say that as good as he was, he just wouldn't fit in against today's far superior talent. 

So "3-Time Allstar" Walker(and not the shell of himself we are seeing these days) wouldn't be successful these days 'cause of those reasons and not 'cause teams wouldn't let him be the man or anything LOGICAL like that?    Nice thinking there, larry. ::) 



Sure he was a "3-Time Allstar" when he played, but times have changed.  In Walker's heyday he was playing with guys like Alton Lister and Frank Brickowski... and going up against inferior competition like Mark West and Fred Roberts.   Bottom line... I'd like to see a Steve Scheffler defend a Dwight Howard if you get my drift.  Different time, different era, different league.  It's too big, strong and athletic now.  The game is too complex.  The defenses are too evolved.  It's not your older brother's NBA anymore.  Walker wouldn't stand a chance.   It's not even the same game anymore... all sorts of rule changes.  Like Rule 2 Section IV on block/charge clarification... or Rule 13 Section I on instant replay additions.   

Times have changed.  We can honor Antoine for being a solid player for his generation, but lets not get ridiculous... Walker would be outclassed by today's players.

You make it sound like he was shooting into peach baskets or something. 

No kidding.  In 2000-2001 and 2001-2002, when Walker was really in his prime, and had two of his best overall seasons, he was going up against guys like Garnett, McDyess, Brand, Dirk, Duncan, Jamison, Webber, Rasheed, and J. Oneal all in their primes.  I don't know, but I think that is pretty comparable competition and athleticism to what is out there now.

   Don't talk crazy like that. Guys like Garnett, Brand, Dirk and Duncan wouldn't be able to survive in today's NBA. The game is too quick, the defenses are too complex, the players are too strong and athletic.

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2008, 12:48:41 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  Was the whole "the game's changed too much" supposed to be a serious argument?

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2008, 12:51:05 PM »

Offline moiso

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I don't think it has changed all that much since the bad boys of detroit became dominant in the late 90's.  And some teams in the early 80's like Philly look just like current nba teams- with the exception of the 4 white stiffs on the end of the bench.

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2008, 12:52:11 PM »

Offline Redz

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  Was the whole "the game's changed too much" supposed to be a serious argument?

Maybe not to that drastic a degree, but to what level has it changed?
Yup

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2008, 12:52:23 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Look I don't mean any disrespect to Walker.  He certainly was a good player in his heyday, but times have changed.  This isn't your older brother's NBA anymore.  Not just the NBA...  We're talking about a time before Obama changed the world and people still thought pygmy tasier's were extinct.  People didn't have iPhones back then and shows like TRL were still on the air.  

Sorry to say... Walker couldn't cut it these days.


Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2008, 12:54:03 PM »

Offline Redz

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Look I don't mean any disrespect to Walker.  He certainly was a good player in his heyday, but times have changed.  This isn't your older brother's NBA anymore.  Not just the NBA...  We're talking about a time before Obama changed the world and people still thought pygmy tasier's were extinct.  People didn't have iPhones back then and shows like TRL were still on the air.  

Sorry to say... Walker couldn't cut it these days.



To what degree?  Would Antoine in his prime be able to sustain Scal like productivity?
Yup

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2008, 12:56:57 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Look I don't mean any disrespect to Walker.  He certainly was a good player in his heyday, but times have changed.  This isn't your older brother's NBA anymore.  Not just the NBA...  We're talking about a time before Obama changed the world and people still thought pygmy tasier's were extinct.  People didn't have iPhones back then and shows like TRL were still on the air.  

Sorry to say... Walker couldn't cut it these days.



To what degree?  Would Antoine in his prime be able to sustain Scal like productivity?

Sure you could say that, in essence, Scal is a relic to a forgotten time when players like Antoine Walker were still considered good.

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2008, 01:01:47 PM »

Offline Redz

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Look I don't mean any disrespect to Walker.  He certainly was a good player in his heyday, but times have changed.  This isn't your older brother's NBA anymore.  Not just the NBA...  We're talking about a time before Obama changed the world and people still thought pygmy tasier's were extinct.  People didn't have iPhones back then and shows like TRL were still on the air.  

Sorry to say... Walker couldn't cut it these days.



To what degree?  Would Antoine in his prime be able to sustain Scal like productivity?

Sure you could say that, in essence, Scal is a relic to a forgotten time when players like Antoine Walker were still considered good.

 ;D

holy hyperbole
Yup

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2008, 01:15:18 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I'm just being realistic here.  I remember those days as fondly as everyone else.  But we're talking about back when the "Oklahoma City Thunder" were still being called the "Seattle SuperSonics" and back before the NBA used instant replay on a limited basis.   Different time, different game... not your older brother's NBA anymore.   Walker wouldn't survive with today's Greg Odens and Derrick Roses running wild.

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 01:32:22 PM »

Offline Redz

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I'm just being realistic here.  I remember those days as fondly as everyone else.  But we're talking about back when the "Oklahoma City Thunder" were still being called the "Seattle SuperSonics" and back before the NBA used instant replay on a limited basis.   Different time, different game... not your older brother's NBA anymore.   Walker wouldn't survive with today's Greg Odens and Derrick Roses running wild.

My "older brother's NBA" was sitting on the couch with me watching Larry and looking for Dad in the stands (yes, we could find him quite often)
Yup

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2008, 01:51:09 PM »

Offline Celtic

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Nonsense, the game has barely changed talent wise, over the last ten years there has not been a significant change in player skill. It's just a matter of being enamored with what you see now and downplaying players of the past. Yes some of the current guys are very impressive and are physical freaks, but so where a lot of guys in the 90s, we're just not remembering them as such. Antoine was a very good player who could absolutely play in the NBA now if he were in his prime, to say he's not is simply foolish.

The "it's not your older brother's NBA anymore," tagline is getting a little old, besides I don't have an older brother, but I am one, so does that mean I don't know what I am talking about? I know, it's just a figure of speech, but it's a little silly to think that 10 years would contain that revolutionary of a change in the sport and a fan's view of it.

Most people look back at the NBA's past and consider it be a much better game, the opposite is happening here for some reason.

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2008, 03:30:56 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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antoines "hey day" was 6-7 years ago. i agree that the game has changed alot, but not in the past 7 years, he was going up against the likes of garnett brand dirk duncan, and now he'd be going up against the likes of garnett brand dirk duncan. i feel like he could still score now if not for his knees/age, i just don't see the argument.

Re: Has the Game Changed That Much? (since the 90's)
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2008, 03:51:24 PM »

Offline Toine43

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I'm just being realistic here.  I remember those days as fondly as everyone else.  But we're talking about back when the "Oklahoma City Thunder" were still being called the "Seattle SuperSonics" and back before the NBA used instant replay on a limited basis.   Different time, different game... not your older brother's NBA anymore.   Walker wouldn't survive with today's Greg Odens and Derrick Roses running wild.

Come on, Larry, you got burned by Chris and now you're trying to support your argument with Barack Obama, iphones, instant replay, and your overused line "it's not your older brother's NBA anymore." What do these things have to do with the atheltes in the NBA? Sometimes you just have to admit that you're beat. Sure, the athleticism in the NBA evovles over time, but Antoine was still averaging 19 points per game in 2004-2005, for God's sake! Are Al Jefferson, Delonte West, and Tony Allen, who all played for us in 04-05, part of your older brother's unathletic NBA?

Oh, and I remember the days of the Sonics very fondly, and also very vividly, because those days were last season!


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