Was Antoine Walker ever good?

[Redz]

Celtic career  highs of 47 points in a game, 21 rebounds, and 14 assists.  

Didn't he have 49 against the Wizards on year?

Yes.  He was unstoppable.  And if memory serves it wasn't so much on the 3's as much as the aforementioned potentially dominant low post game.  They kept going to him and the Bullets (I believe they were still the Bullets), couldn't stop him.

[Redz]

Celtic career  highs of 47 points in a game, 21 rebounds, and 14 assists.  

Didn't he have 49 against the Wizards on year?

Yes.  He was unstoppable.  And if memory serves it wasn't so much on the 3's as much as the aforementioned potentially dominant low post game.  They kept going to him and the Bullets (I believe they were still the Bullets), couldn't stop him.

OK< memory didn't completely serve me well...He was 5 of 5 from 3's and fouled out shooting 21 of 36 from the field and 2 of 7 from the line, while pulling in 12 rebounds.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pgl.cgi?player=walkean02&year=1998

[Chris]

Antoine Walker was in fact a very good player.  He is one of the best offensive rebounders I have ever seen, and early in his career had the same type of quickness and hands around the basket that make Powe so effective...except with a few extra inches, and much better overall ball-skills. 

The problem is he both fell in love with the 3 pointer, and he lost a bit of his quickness, so instead of being able to slip the ball past shot blockers, they were able to catch up with him.

With that said, the more I see of this team, the more I think if Antoine is bought out, and is in good shape, they absolutely should consider bringing him in (if there aren't significantly better options).  His versatility to be able to rebound, play team defense (he was always an underrated defender...he just couldn't handle extremely athletic big guys like Martin), and stretch the defense with his perimeter game (both shooting and passing) could really help this team off the bench, and down the stretch of games, when teams sagging off Perkins and Rondo.

[EJPLAYA]

Best Antoine quote of all-time: When asked by a reporter at the all-star game why he shot so many 3's he replied "Because they don't have 4's".

Antoine was a lovable player that you couldn't help but root for. Yes he shot some 3's at bad times, but the coach was responsible for allowing that to happen. The reason that he wasn't better than he was because like BBD he had absolutely no vertical whatsoever. If that guy had a vertical jump he would have been one of the greats. Charles Barkley type.

[Roy Hobbs]

Antoine was a lovable player that you couldn't help but root for. Yes he shot some 3's at bad times, but the coach was responsible for allowing that to happen. The reason that he wasn't better than he was because like BBD he had absolutely no vertical whatsoever. If that guy had a vertical jump he would have been one of the greats. Charles Barkley type.

Part of the reason he never had that vertical leap, though, is because he never worked at it.  If Antoine dedicated his summers to improving his game, he could have been a great player, instead of just a good one.  There aren't many guys who are capable of putting up 20/10/5 on a consistent basis.

Antoine was a very good player when he was here and his team's never lost due to a lack of effort or heart on his part. My problem with Antoine is he should have been so much better than what he was. I attribute that to Rick Pitino never surrounding Antoine with quality veteran's early in Antoine's career that would have taught him how to keep himself at his best and Antoine's own lack of discipline in allowing himself to take the easy way out when it came to off season conditioning and improvements in his game.

He should never have moved his game out of the paint or at least any further out than 15 feet. He should have used his unique ability to dribble and pass as a weapon going towards the basket. He should never have been taking the ball up the floor or shooting ungodly number of threes.

But he helped motivate a young Paul Pierce and helped in the molding of the Truth. He will a fairly bad team to the ECF along with Pierce's astonishing clutchness. And this team was his every moment he was here, at times to a horrible detriment to the team, at other to a tremendous benefit.

I agree with all of this.  Antoine *should* have been better, and I partially blame him, and partially blame coaching / management.  As you mentioned, he entered a steep decline at age 26, and a lot of that was because he didn't dedicate himself to the game.

Still, I don't think all the residual Antoine hate from many is fair.  He was a good player, if a frustrating one.

[Chris]

Part of the reason he never had that vertical leap, though, is because he never worked at it.  If Antoine dedicated his summers to improving his game, he could have been a great player, instead of just a good one.  There aren't many guys who are capable of putting up 20/10/5 on a consistent basis.

Although I agree with this, I don't know that getting more of a vertical would have helped him THAT much.  His game was mostly played below the rim.  He was a position rebounder, and he scored inside using his quickness and finesse, rather than power and athleticism. 

Of course if he was more dedicated to staying in shape, he likely wouldn't have lost his quickness as quickly as he did, which made his interior offense much less effective, even with his lack of vertical leap.

Either way, if BBD is looking for a player to model his game after, he should look at tapes of Walker from his first couple years in the league.  Davis doesn't have the talent (or height...remember, Walker was a true 6'9"-6'10" player) to be that good, but the style is the same.

[jambr380]

I always love Antoine threads. He will always be my favorite all-time Celtic. I was in high school when we drafted him and I immediately fell in love with his game and demeanor. Anyone who says Antoine was just a "chucker" never really watched Celtics basketball in the 90s. Sure everybody talks about the 02 season like it was a championship, but it was really their only excellent year in like the last 20 years. Antoine may have taken too many threes in the later part of his Celtic career, but that is what he was asked to do and he did it fairly well (took the most in the NBA and made the most). I even remember the year that he and Paul finished 1-2 in Yahoo fantasy rankings.

All of these Antoine discussions always drive me crazy. He will go down as one of the better Celtics of all-time, in an era where Celtics basketball could have really fallen off the face of the earth. He was a fantastic all-around player with skills that go beyond his size and body-type.

And btw, for all of the good things Ainge has done lately, trading him for a 5-year/ 13 mil per year guy in Raef LaFrentz was one of the worst moves in trading history (and I knew it at the time). If he had to trade the guy, he should have traded him for an expiring or someone who actually was good- Antoine was still in his prime.

[LarBrd33]

'Toine had heart and I loved him, but the guy had a lot of freedom here.  He came to this team in a time when we really didn't have anything better... kinda like Primoz Brezec on the expansion Bobcats getting 32 minutes and putting up inflated numbers.  Walker always had talent, but the guy was basically just given freedom to do whatever he wanted. 

He was a rookie on a 15 win team.  He lead the team in scoring, because we had nothing better.

He then spent the rest of his tenure here playing for his College coach (Pitino) and his College assistant coach (O'Brien).  I think he lucked into his situation.  I really feel like if he were playing on any other team there is no way they would have allowed their power forward to average 40+ minutes and jack up shot after shot.  Name me another power forward who shoots under 40%?  It's unheard of.   The guy definitely had heart.  He definitely had games where he was fantastic.   Some believe that if he had just stayed in the post he would have been amazing... but personally I think he had a lot of wasted potential by playing for an incompetent franchise during his formative years. 

It's the reason I couldn't take that 2002 ECF team seriously.  It wasn't a legitimate contender.  It was a quirky, weird overachieving team that somehow defied odds and got to the ECF with a absurd style.  That team wasn't good.  Seriously.  That was not a good team.   The eastern conference has never been worse and that team made the most of the little talent it had.  I don't blame Ainge for trading Walker when he took over.  He saw how dysfunctional and inefficient the basketball was being played here and correctly realized no team could win crap with a power forward jacking 8 threes a game and shooting 38% on field goals.   

I loved Walker, but it wasn't a surprise that his career went to crap when he left here.  Was Walker ever good?  Sure... he was ok.  But not an allstar level, IMO.  He benefited from a perfect situation.  Anywhere else and I think there is no way he's allowed to jack his way to 20 and 8 for 40+ minutes. 

Note:  Antoine in Dallas was what Antoine looked like on a semi-competent franchise.  14 points, 8 rebounds, 4.5 assists in 35 minutes.   Good, but not great.  He was 27 years old so basically his "prime" age.  He was playing for a coach who is known to be good with "quirky" players (Don Nelson).  And yet Walker still shot 43% and earned himself a ticket out of Dallas as soon as the season was over.  Again... good, but not allstar level.  You can make the argument that he was still given freedom in Dallas because of his contract/name.  I wonder what Walker would have looked like had he spent his career playing for a legit team instead of a doormat Celtic franchise.  Probably 25-35 minutes a game... 8-15 points... he'd be a solid role player getting 6-9 rebounds, showing solid passing ability... and probably never given the freedom to shoot three pointers.   

[Jesus Shuttlesworth #20]

Edited.  Personal attacks and insults are not permitted.

[LarBrd33]

btw... I don't think Walker in Miami was any different than Walker in Boston.  He was just playing for a coach who wasn't a fan of power forwards shooting 40%. 

So...

26.8 minutes, 12 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists.   Still far too many three point attempts... and 43% shooting.  His numbers per 36 minutes remain about even with what they always have been.  I don't think he's slipped, honestly... he's just playing for teams that don't want to give him 40+ minutes.  This is why even after you see his numbers "dip", he can still go to a team like Atlanta or Boston in 2004 and jump right back into 40+ minutes, 20+ inefficient points, 8 rebounds and 4 assists. 

[moiso]

I agree that his performance in Dallas is representative of how he would perform on a decent team.  I was going to write that earlier.

[PRIDE]

How can you knock Toine for his shot selection during his time with the C's? Tell me who else on the team you would rather have shooting the ball. Until Paul Pierce became "The Truth"(we should all credit Toine for helping Pierce become who he is today) there was NOBODY half as talented as Walker on the C's. Antoine Walker was the HEART and SOUL of this team while he was here. He was the leader of this team and it was up to him to carry us over the top on a nightly basis. Go take a look at Antoine's MPG throught his career. Forget working in the offseason, Toine had to spend most of his offseason recovering from the beating of an 82 game season. In his time with the C's there was no one that played with more heart than employee #8.

[LarBrd33]

How can you knock Toine for his shot selection during his time with the C's? Tell me who else on the team you would rather have shooting the ball. Until Paul Pierce became "The Truth"(we should all credit Toine for helping Pierce become who he is today) there was NOBODY half as talented as Walker on the C's. Antoine Walker was the HEART and SOUL of this team while he was here. He was the leader of this team and it was up to him to carry us over the top on a nightly basis. Go take a look at Antoine's MPG throught his career. Forget working in the offseason, Toine had to spend most of his offseason recovering from the beating of an 82 game season. In his time with the C's there was no one that played with more heart than employee #8.

But PRIDE, that's the point... there was nobody better on the team.  Walker was the best option.  It was a doormat franchise with crap on the squad.   I'm not saying Toine didn't have heart... I'm just saying that he was given a ton of freedom to jack up as many shots as he wanted.  That doesn't mean he wasn't "good" it just means he wasn't an allstar.  Point is... if you stuck a guy like Udonis Haslem on that squad instead of Walker... I'm pretty sure Haslem could have averaged 20 and 10.  Maybe even more efficiently. 

[PRIDE]

Udonis Haslem is a role player and never has been more than that. Antoine Walker has always been a good all around player. You cant compare the two players other than they both play PF.

No one in their right basketball mind can question whether Toine was ever "good". He was very talented player in this league for quite a while and his career was ruined because he was the first piece of a rebuilding franchise. He never had a veteran to take him under his wing. Toine was forced to grow up too quick and it hurt him in the long run.

[xmuscularghandix]

Udonis Haslem is a role player and never has been more than that. Antoine Walker has always been a good all around player. You cant compare the two players other than they both play PF.

No one in their right basketball mind can question whether Toine was ever "good". He was very talented player in this league for quite a while and his career was ruined because he was the first piece of a rebuilding franchise. He never had a veteran to take him under his wing. Toine was forced to grow up too quick and it hurt him in the long run.

TP.