Do we have too many projects on our roster? (split from POB discussion)

[Roy Hobbs]

I also don't agree that BBD is a project.  He is a rotation player right now, who has earned his minutes with excellent defense, rebounding, and the occasional offense.  Yeah, he may still be able to get better, but he is no more a project than Powe, its just that his contributions don't show up on the stat sheet as easily.

Eh...  Captain Intangibles II is shooting 25%, and averaging 3.0 points and 2.8 rebounds in 15 minutes per game.  I can't see any justification whatsoever for the statement that "he is no more a project than Powe".  That's simply palpably incorrect.

He also plays significantly better defense than Powe (although Powe does continue to improve on that end). 

I am not arguing that Davis is as good as Powe (who has been exceptional), I am just saying that he is contributing a lot of positive things to this team.  To me, that makes him more than a project. 

If he's not a project, then I think he falls into the "players that just aren't very good" category.  I'd like to think that he'll get better.

Based on what?  You don't think he has helped this team very well so far?

Who cares if he scores 10 points or has 10 rebounds.  He plays very good defense (especially against certain matchups).  He prevents his man from grabbing rebounds, even if he doesn't grab them himself. 

Those are the same arguments that people -- including myself -- make for Scal.  Scal is perfectly acceptable as an end of the roster player, as would be BBD.  However, that puts him into the class of poorer players.  I'd rather consider him to be a project, who can be something other than a 10th to 12th man (which is what he has shown this year so far.)  I see him as a "project" because I expect him to improve, although I'm not certain that he will.

[Chris]

I also don't agree that BBD is a project.  He is a rotation player right now, who has earned his minutes with excellent defense, rebounding, and the occasional offense.  Yeah, he may still be able to get better, but he is no more a project than Powe, its just that his contributions don't show up on the stat sheet as easily.

Eh...  Captain Intangibles II is shooting 25%, and averaging 3.0 points and 2.8 rebounds in 15 minutes per game.  I can't see any justification whatsoever for the statement that "he is no more a project than Powe".  That's simply palpably incorrect.

He also plays significantly better defense than Powe (although Powe does continue to improve on that end). 

I am not arguing that Davis is as good as Powe (who has been exceptional), I am just saying that he is contributing a lot of positive things to this team.  To me, that makes him more than a project. 

If he's not a project, then I think he falls into the "players that just aren't very good" category.  I'd like to think that he'll get better.

Based on what?  You don't think he has helped this team very well so far?

Who cares if he scores 10 points or has 10 rebounds.  He plays very good defense (especially against certain matchups).  He prevents his man from grabbing rebounds, even if he doesn't grab them himself. 

Those are the same arguments that people -- including myself -- make for Scal.  Scal is perfectly acceptable as an end of the roster player, as would be BBD.  However, that puts him into the class of poorer players.  I'd rather consider him to be a project, who can be something other than a 10th to 12th man (which is what he has shown this year so far.)  I see him as a "project" because I expect him to improve, although I'm not certain that he will.

I agree except there are two differences between Scal and BBD. 

1. BBD is a better rebounder.
2. This year Scal has actually taken things off the table offensively with his constant mistakes/bad passes/bad shooting.  BBD might not bring much to the table (other than offensive rebounding), but he does not take anything off.  He moves the ball well, does not try to do too much, and is generally efficient.

BBD is an 8th or 9th man on many teams in this league, including this one.  Maybe one day he can improve enough to be a 6th man, but for what this team needs right now, he is doing the job well.

[Roy Hobbs]

I agree except there are two differences between Scal and BBD. 

1. BBD is a better rebounder.
2. This year Scal has actually taken things off the table offensively with his constant mistakes/bad passes/bad shooting.  BBD might not bring much to the table (other than offensive rebounding), but he does not take anything off.  He moves the ball well, does not try to do too much, and is generally efficient.

So far, here are the numbers:

Scal (per 48 minutes): 33.3% shooting, 5.1 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 0.0 turnovers, 0.0 personal fouls

BBD (per 48 minutes): 25.0% shooting, 7.4 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 1.5 turnovers, 5.4 personal fouls

I guess I'm not sure how to make the argument that Scal -- who is shooting a higher percentage, has outrebounded BBD, and has zero turnovers or fouls -- is hurting the team more than BBD.

(It's not really fair to make judgments at this stage, but I don't think it's fair to suggest that Scal has been hurting the team, while BBD has been helping it.)

[Birdbrain]

Talk about misleading.  I mean come on 48 minutes stats for 10 minute players... and not to mention it's only been 4 games.

I'll trust my eyes over your stats.   There is no argument as to who is helping the team BBD or scal.

[Chris]

I agree except there are two differences between Scal and BBD. 

1. BBD is a better rebounder.
2. This year Scal has actually taken things off the table offensively with his constant mistakes/bad passes/bad shooting.  BBD might not bring much to the table (other than offensive rebounding), but he does not take anything off.  He moves the ball well, does not try to do too much, and is generally efficient.

So far, here are the numbers:

Scal (per 48 minutes): 33.3% shooting, 5.1 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 0.0 turnovers, 0.0 personal fouls

BBD (per 48 minutes): 25.0% shooting, 7.4 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 1.5 turnovers, 5.4 personal fouls

I guess I'm not sure how to make the argument that Scal -- who is shooting a higher percentage, has outrebounded BBD, and has zero turnovers or fouls -- is hurting the team more than BBD.

(It's not really fair to make judgments at this stage, but I don't think it's fair to suggest that Scal has been hurting the team, while BBD has been helping it.)

I think it all comes down to one thing with me...I think that stats for role players are pretty close to useless. 

(and for the record, I don't think Scal is hurting the team...I think he helps the team defensively more than he hurts them offensively).

[Roy Hobbs]

I agree except there are two differences between Scal and BBD. 

1. BBD is a better rebounder.
2. This year Scal has actually taken things off the table offensively with his constant mistakes/bad passes/bad shooting.  BBD might not bring much to the table (other than offensive rebounding), but he does not take anything off.  He moves the ball well, does not try to do too much, and is generally efficient.

So far, here are the numbers:

Scal (per 48 minutes): 33.3% shooting, 5.1 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 0.0 turnovers, 0.0 personal fouls

BBD (per 48 minutes): 25.0% shooting, 7.4 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 1.5 turnovers, 5.4 personal fouls

I guess I'm not sure how to make the argument that Scal -- who is shooting a higher percentage, has outrebounded BBD, and has zero turnovers or fouls -- is hurting the team more than BBD.

(It's not really fair to make judgments at this stage, but I don't think it's fair to suggest that Scal has been hurting the team, while BBD has been helping it.)

I think it all comes down to one thing with me...I think that stats for role players are pretty close to useless. 

(and for the record, I don't think Scal is hurting the team...I think he helps the team defensively more than he hurts them offensively).

Fair enough.  I just took exception to the "Scal makes 'constant mistakes / bad passing / bad shooting' reasoning, when the reality is that BBD has been worse in those areas so far this year, especially in terms of shooting.

[Sweet17]

We only have three "true" projects in Giddens, Walker and POB.

Just because a guy can't beat out the man in front of him (Pruitt) or they just aren't very good (the fat boys Scalabrine and Davis).. That doesn't mean they are projects.

[BballTim]

I also don't agree that BBD is a project.  He is a rotation player right now, who has earned his minutes with excellent defense, rebounding, and the occasional offense.  Yeah, he may still be able to get better, but he is no more a project than Powe, its just that his contributions don't show up on the stat sheet as easily.

Eh...  Captain Intangibles II is shooting 25%, and averaging 3.0 points and 2.8 rebounds in 15 minutes per game.  I can't see any justification whatsoever for the statement that "he is no more a project than Powe".  That's simply palpably incorrect.

He also plays significantly better defense than Powe (although Powe does continue to improve on that end). 

I am not arguing that Davis is as good as Powe (who has been exceptional), I am just saying that he is contributing a lot of positive things to this team.  To me, that makes him more than a project. 

If he's not a project, then I think he falls into the "players that just aren't very good" category.  I'd like to think that he'll get better.

Based on what?  You don't think he has helped this team very well so far?

Who cares if he scores 10 points or has 10 rebounds.  He plays very good defense (especially against certain matchups).  He prevents his man from grabbing rebounds, even if he doesn't grab them himself. 

Those are the same arguments that people -- including myself -- make for Scal.  Scal is perfectly acceptable as an end of the roster player, as would be BBD.  However, that puts him into the class of poorer players.  I'd rather consider him to be a project, who can be something other than a 10th to 12th man (which is what he has shown this year so far.)  I see him as a "project" because I expect him to improve, although I'm not certain that he will.

  IMO the original "project" people (Giddens, Walker, POB, Pruitt) would fit into the category of players who aren't ready to contribute now but will be expected to in the future when they improve or otherwise become ready. BBD is a regular in the rotation and seems to contribute (at least with decent defense and (some) scoring and rebounding every game.

[cordobes]

Who used to say that "all you need is 8 guys ready to play and 4 to cheer and wave towels like crazy"? Bob Knight? Slick Leonard?

That's true for any given NBA game or for the play-offs, not that much for the regular season. It's good to have some veterans at the end of the bench, because they can sit for 10 consecutive games and still be effective if they are suddenly called, due to an injury. Younger players can really hurt the team if you need them to play here and there; doesn't mean that they're awful, it's that they don't know their limitations so well and are not adjusted yet to more demanding situations.

I think having a roster of 4 untested and unready projects and 2 end of the bench veterans would be passable. My biggest problem is that the remaining 4 guys besides the starters don't fill all the roles necessary. So, I suppose someone will be added to the team and, unless one of them becomes more than a project meanwhile and assuming no trades are made, one of the youngster will have to go. From this perspective, yeah, I guess there are too many projects.

[Who]

The bench is a little light on established veterans but it still has four quality players - House, Tony, Powe, BBD - and solid backups for them (except at C).

A lot of the team's best bench players are young. Three of the best four are still young players trying to establish themselves .... So the bench is going to look young. It's unavoidable.

You can swap a Giddens for a Donyell Marshall but is that going to make a difference to your season? No, I don't think so. The experience and reliability needs to be on the court, not behind the regular rotation.

[xmuscularghandix]

True budceltic, but there are only a certain amount of roster spots and a salary cap.  Right now we have 4 projects- Pruitt, Giddens, Walker, and POB. 

  But it's not like it's 4 out of 12. There are still 11 "non-projects" on the team. I don't think loading up exclusively on aging vets who are steady but have no upside is a good idea.

I'd add BBD as a "project", and Scal and Cassell in the "usually not very useful" category.

That means 7 out of our 15 players are either projects, or just not that good at their stage of their career.  Add to that that Tony Allen is wildly inconsistent, and I can see why some folks are concerned.

We have our five starters, and two steady vets (Powe and Eddie, even if Eddie is struggling).  The rest of the roster is a crap shoot.

i wouldn't put BBD as a project, i feel that he has a role that he knows and he does it. also, tony's inconsistency isn't an issue so far this year, at the end of night i find myself giving kudos to TA.

so i'd say...

Projects: O'Bryant, Giddens, Walker, Pruitt (who will step up into the backup pg at some point this year)

Starters: KG, Paul, Allen, Rondo, Perkins

Solid Bench/Role Players: Powe, TA, House, BBD

Super Streaky Aging Veteran: Scalabrine

Assistant Coach Getting Paid as a Player: Cassell

[Who]

On the four main bench players .....

I'm very happy with Eddie House. I also felt giving Tony Allen this opportunity was the best, or comparably good, to the other fallback opportunities that were available after Danny choose to let James Posey go. Leon Powe has become one of the best backup fours in the league, I love the improvement he's shown so far this season too, very happy with Leon. Then you have Glen Davis who provides solid play to round out the rotation.

I'd like to have a legit center with size instead of BBD, but that's a hard thing to find. It's not that troubling to me either because

• Davis is a superb defender on the low post and a very good all round defensive player. Most 6-11 guys that are backup centers in this league cannot defend as well as he can.
• He also does a good job keeping the opposition off the glass, although a poor job of grabbing the ball himself.
• Davis and Powe also play very well alongside one another and bring different skills to the table, so I have no problem playing both of them.

Ideally, I'd rather have another long big but I'm happy to go to the playoffs with Powe and Davis as the team's primary backup big men ... I was happy last season and I'm happy with it this season. They can do the job required of them.

Tony Allen is the biggest question mark of any player on the bench, but he also the biggest short term upside of anyone on the bench. He's the guy who either going to crown this bench or make it weak. It's too early to evaluate that, he needs time and it's worth looking at again closer to the deadline.

[nickagneta]

To chime in I think at this moment BBD is a solid 9th man in the rotation that is doing quite well in the role that he is being asked to perform.

But I still think he is a project because I think he has somuch more to give this team once he gets into proper shape and has more experience. His jumper will start to fall on a regular basis this year. Once he loses some weight he will get more rebounds and finish around the basket better.

But that's why he is a project. If he commits himself to diet and training he could be so much better. If he doesn't, at best he's the 9th or 10th guy coming off the bench with a 4-5 year long career at best.

[2short]

Davis to me isn't a project, he has a ceiling as a good servicable sub.  Scal isn't a project, Powe & Eddie are good subs.
On the fence Tony Allen...he really is a project as he could be a good-very good starter but for now is a sometimes good sub.
true projects, o'bryant, walker, giddens and pruitt
I personally would rather have 3-4 projects at the end of bench that might help someday.  His rookie year Powe would have been considered a project.  Pruitt will be getting minutes this year AND will help.  Walker to me has what it takes to take over for PP someday.

[Brickowski]

BBD has hustled his tail off and has been playing great defense.  Not just good-- great. So long as he keeps it up, that's good enough for me.