Author Topic: James Posey Threads (merged)  (Read 26387 times)

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Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2008, 03:47:30 PM »

Offline winsomme

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Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could have won another title.

Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could still win the championship.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could be because Posey wasn't here.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could have absolutely nothing to do with Posey being here or not.

These are all possibilities and we can squawk about James Posey's absence all year long but until the season is over, we really will have no idea which of the above scenarios occurred. We are three games into the season and haven't a clue as to how it will turn out. Young players could develop into game changers. Stars could get hurt. A team altering trade could happen. The Celtics could easily have a championship hangover and not meld together again. They could cruise to another title with the team as is.

Let's say we wait about half the season to go by before microanalyzing the "Should we have given Pose that extra a year" argument that we went through all summer long.

Nick once again, can you explain how the heck would a single extra year in Posey's contract have the potential to hinder our chances of winning two titles down the road? In what seasons have our chances of winning increased because we're not paying $7 million in 2012?

I think this "long-term planning" stuff is just an attempt to rationalize Ainge's decision, unless people believe that not having those $7 million on the books by the Summer of 2011 will allow the to make some move with a major impact. It's a really far-fetched scenario and nobody has explained what kind of move they are thinking about.

Also, hindsight is not a proper way of evaluating decision-making. I mean, if KG had broken his leg in his first game for the C's, would that make trading for him a bad decision? Of course not, it was the right decision at that time.


i agree totally cordobes....a GM has to be constantly proactive...especially with the best starting 5 in the NBA with a small window.

you can't wait until something is proven to have not worked. that's just a wasted year..and a big one at that..

Danny needs to be thinking about how to rectify the loss of Posey right now IMO...

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2008, 04:01:06 PM »

Offline BballTim

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A general manager's job is to plan for the short term AND the long term.  Ideally, there should be a balance between winning now and setting yourself to win in the future.  So far, I think Danny has done a good job at it. 

Obviously, all of us are looking at the short term picture but GMs can't think that way.

it's also the GMs job to prioritize and while i agree that DA has done an outstanding job, i think he made a mistake not re-signing Pose....

but he also hasn't replaced him which is really the most important aspect of the whole thing.


Quote
Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

i guess i would disagree with the "just as easily" part of that statement....i don't think they would have just as easily lost with Posey on the team (al things being equal...ie no major injuries to the Big 3, etc...)

but like i said above, the key thing if you're not going to re-sign Pose is to actually replace what he did, and i don't think we have done that yet. and i would rather Danny start working on that now than later because it's not going to be easy.

we don't have a guy off the bench that can guard long wings and we don't have a wing that can knock down three's...gotta start working on that now IMO.


  I disagree with the thought that we need a Posey clone to replace Posey's minutes.

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2008, 04:30:07 PM »

Offline winsomme

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A general manager's job is to plan for the short term AND the long term.  Ideally, there should be a balance between winning now and setting yourself to win in the future.  So far, I think Danny has done a good job at it. 

Obviously, all of us are looking at the short term picture but GMs can't think that way.

it's also the GMs job to prioritize and while i agree that DA has done an outstanding job, i think he made a mistake not re-signing Pose....

but he also hasn't replaced him which is really the most important aspect of the whole thing.


Quote
Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

i guess i would disagree with the "just as easily" part of that statement....i don't think they would have just as easily lost with Posey on the team (al things being equal...ie no major injuries to the Big 3, etc...)

but like i said above, the key thing if you're not going to re-sign Pose is to actually replace what he did, and i don't think we have done that yet. and i would rather Danny start working on that now than later because it's not going to be easy.

we don't have a guy off the bench that can guard long wings and we don't have a wing that can knock down three's...gotta start working on that now IMO.


  I disagree with the thought that we need a Posey clone to replace Posey's minutes.

well who guards backup SFs?  you don't think we need another shooter? I'm not really sure what you are suggesting here.

maybe we don't need a clone, but we need someone to do the things he did. i mean, that's like taking a plug out of a drain and saying you don't need to replace it with another plug.

maybe you don't need specifically another plug, but you need something to stop the loss of water whatever you call it...that's how i see it anyway...

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2008, 11:30:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

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A general manager's job is to plan for the short term AND the long term.  Ideally, there should be a balance between winning now and setting yourself to win in the future.  So far, I think Danny has done a good job at it. 

Obviously, all of us are looking at the short term picture but GMs can't think that way.

it's also the GMs job to prioritize and while i agree that DA has done an outstanding job, i think he made a mistake not re-signing Pose....

but he also hasn't replaced him which is really the most important aspect of the whole thing.


Quote
Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

i guess i would disagree with the "just as easily" part of that statement....i don't think they would have just as easily lost with Posey on the team (al things being equal...ie no major injuries to the Big 3, etc...)

but like i said above, the key thing if you're not going to re-sign Pose is to actually replace what he did, and i don't think we have done that yet. and i would rather Danny start working on that now than later because it's not going to be easy.

we don't have a guy off the bench that can guard long wings and we don't have a wing that can knock down three's...gotta start working on that now IMO.


  I disagree with the thought that we need a Posey clone to replace Posey's minutes.

well who guards backup SFs?  you don't think we need another shooter? I'm not really sure what you are suggesting here.

maybe we don't need a clone, but we need someone to do the things he did. i mean, that's like taking a plug out of a drain and saying you don't need to replace it with another plug.

maybe you don't need specifically another plug, but you need something to stop the loss of water whatever you call it...that's how i see it anyway...

  Tony or Ray or Scal can guard backup small forwards. I don't know that we actually need another shooter with KG and Paul and Ray and Eddie in the regular rotation. Pruitt even seems like a decent shooter.

  Posey's not like a plug in a drain. KG or maybe Pierce are. The plug in a drain is indespensible. Posey isn't. He's more like a pen, which could adequately be replaced with a pencil or a marker.

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2008, 08:34:10 AM »

Offline winsomme

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A general manager's job is to plan for the short term AND the long term.  Ideally, there should be a balance between winning now and setting yourself to win in the future.  So far, I think Danny has done a good job at it. 

Obviously, all of us are looking at the short term picture but GMs can't think that way.

it's also the GMs job to prioritize and while i agree that DA has done an outstanding job, i think he made a mistake not re-signing Pose....

but he also hasn't replaced him which is really the most important aspect of the whole thing.


Quote
Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

i guess i would disagree with the "just as easily" part of that statement....i don't think they would have just as easily lost with Posey on the team (al things being equal...ie no major injuries to the Big 3, etc...)

but like i said above, the key thing if you're not going to re-sign Pose is to actually replace what he did, and i don't think we have done that yet. and i would rather Danny start working on that now than later because it's not going to be easy.

we don't have a guy off the bench that can guard long wings and we don't have a wing that can knock down three's...gotta start working on that now IMO.


  I disagree with the thought that we need a Posey clone to replace Posey's minutes.

well who guards backup SFs?  you don't think we need another shooter? I'm not really sure what you are suggesting here.

maybe we don't need a clone, but we need someone to do the things he did. i mean, that's like taking a plug out of a drain and saying you don't need to replace it with another plug.

maybe you don't need specifically another plug, but you need something to stop the loss of water whatever you call it...that's how i see it anyway...

  Tony or Ray or Scal can guard backup small forwards. I don't know that we actually need another shooter with KG and Paul and Ray and Eddie in the regular rotation. Pruitt even seems like a decent shooter.

  Posey's not like a plug in a drain. KG or maybe Pierce are. The plug in a drain is indespensible. Posey isn't. He's more like a pen, which could adequately be replaced with a pencil or a marker.

I see what you're saying, but that seems like "closer by committee" which IMO is less effective than just getting one guy to do the job...

plus, I really don't think that Scal and TA can do the job of guarding opposing threes...as witnessed by the Indy game. this is something that i think will continue to be a problem depending on the team and the matchup.

and for the shooting, it's not just shooting that we need IMO, it's 3pt shooting....the way i saw the bench being effective last year was that they got a lot of easy buckets with Eddie and Posey's threes. now they have to work so hard to get points in the second unit.

i agree that Pruitt is the kind of shooter we could need, but in the wrong body. with the second unit being basically built around Ray and Pruitt being an Eddie clone, i don't see a unit with House, Pruitt and Ray....that is really undersized. and then where does that leave TA?

i think we need a legit SF who can defend the position and knock down threes. that for me was the right recipe.

going back to the analogy, agreeing that Pose was more of a pen than a plug....there are situations when a pencil is just not good enough....I mean, i'm not signing a check with a pencil...I'm looking for another pen.

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2008, 08:52:44 AM »

Offline crownsy

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A general manager's job is to plan for the short term AND the long term.  Ideally, there should be a balance between winning now and setting yourself to win in the future.  So far, I think Danny has done a good job at it. 

Obviously, all of us are looking at the short term picture but GMs can't think that way.

it's also the GMs job to prioritize and while i agree that DA has done an outstanding job, i think he made a mistake not re-signing Pose....

but he also hasn't replaced him which is really the most important aspect of the whole thing.


Quote
Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

i guess i would disagree with the "just as easily" part of that statement....i don't think they would have just as easily lost with Posey on the team (al things being equal...ie no major injuries to the Big 3, etc...)

but like i said above, the key thing if you're not going to re-sign Pose is to actually replace what he did, and i don't think we have done that yet. and i would rather Danny start working on that now than later because it's not going to be easy.

we don't have a guy off the bench that can guard long wings and we don't have a wing that can knock down three's...gotta start working on that now IMO.


  I disagree with the thought that we need a Posey clone to replace Posey's minutes.

well who guards backup SFs?  you don't think we need another shooter? I'm not really sure what you are suggesting here.

maybe we don't need a clone, but we need someone to do the things he did. i mean, that's like taking a plug out of a drain and saying you don't need to replace it with another plug.

maybe you don't need specifically another plug, but you need something to stop the loss of water whatever you call it...that's how i see it anyway...

  Tony or Ray or Scal can guard backup small forwards. I don't know that we actually need another shooter with KG and Paul and Ray and Eddie in the regular rotation. Pruitt even seems like a decent shooter.

  Posey's not like a plug in a drain. KG or maybe Pierce are. The plug in a drain is indespensible. Posey isn't. He's more like a pen, which could adequately be replaced with a pencil or a marker.

I see what you're saying, but that seems like "closer by committee" which IMO is less effective than just getting one guy to do the job...

plus, I really don't think that Scal and TA can do the job of guarding opposing threes...as witnessed by the Indy game. this is something that i think will continue to be a problem depending on the team and the matchup.

and for the shooting, it's not just shooting that we need IMO, it's 3pt shooting....the way i saw the bench being effective last year was that they got a lot of easy buckets with Eddie and Posey's threes. now they have to work so hard to get points in the second unit.

i agree that Pruitt is the kind of shooter we could need, but in the wrong body. with the second unit being basically built around Ray and Pruitt being an Eddie clone, i don't see a unit with House, Pruitt and Ray....that is really undersized. and then where does that leave TA?

i think we need a legit SF who can defend the position and knock down threes. that for me was the right recipe.

going back to the analogy, agreeing that Pose was more of a pen than a plug....there are situations when a pencil is just not good enough....I mean, i'm not signing a check with a pencil...I'm looking for another pen.

to be fair, granger was toasting paul all night too. That kid was just having a day. Hell, paul even knocked his teeth out and he was still unstoppable., he was hitting contested jumpers over paul and TA like "ya, sorry guys, not tonight."

Ta gaurded Deng to prefection, and looked good against lebron, so i fail to see how were going to say "but he couldn't gaurd granger!" when he helped paul shut down two of the biggest matchup problem SF's in the league.

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Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2008, 09:21:40 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could have won another title.

Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could still win the championship.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could be because Posey wasn't here.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could have absolutely nothing to do with Posey being here or not.

These are all possibilities and we can squawk about James Posey's absence all year long but until the season is over, we really will have no idea which of the above scenarios occurred. We are three games into the season and haven't a clue as to how it will turn out. Young players could develop into game changers. Stars could get hurt. A team altering trade could happen. The Celtics could easily have a championship hangover and not meld together again. They could cruise to another title with the team as is.

Let's say we wait about half the season to go by before microanalyzing the "Should we have given Pose that extra a year" argument that we went through all summer long.

Nick once again, can you explain how the heck would a single extra year in Posey's contract have the potential to hinder our chances of winning two titles down the road? In what seasons have our chances of winning increased because we're not paying $7 million in 2012?

I think this "long-term planning" stuff is just an attempt to rationalize Ainge's decision, unless people believe that not having those $7 million on the books by the Summer of 2011 will allow the to make some move with a major impact. It's a really far-fetched scenario and nobody has explained what kind of move they are thinking about.

Also, hindsight is not a proper way of evaluating decision-making. I mean, if KG had broken his leg in his first game for the C's, would that make trading for him a bad decision? Of course not, it was the right decision at that time.

I think you and I had this conversation this summer ad nauseum in a thread regarding this very same subject to the point, if I remember right, where I started naming you Socrates, which, by the way, considering your very intelligent, philosophical, and well communicated posts would be an awesome username for you.

But again, in brief and for the last time here is my stance. It was not the one extra year that would have hindered the Celtics as much as the whole contract. The Celtics and Ainge have worked very diligently at having many if not most of the team's contracts, except for the starters, expire after next year. I don't know what Ainge's long term plans are but they obviously involve having a lot of the team's player expire at the same time with cap flexibility being built in over a number of years.

He didn't want a four year MLE hindering the flexibility he is building towards. Now you may argue that an extra $5-$7 million of cap space isn't much but can you really argue that it doesn't hinder maximizing whatever flexibility Danny is looking for??

Besides, Posey's contract would have almost guaranteed the loss of at least Tony Allen and maybe Tony and Eddie House. I think both were signed with the MLE though Eddie might have been signed under Bird rights, I'm not sure. Either way the entire team was not coming back intact. Someone was going to have to sign elsewhere. Ainge tried to sign Posey for the three year deal figuring he would allow for that. He didn't want to go another year for various reasons one being that he felt it wasn't worth giving a 31+ year old bench player the full MLE for that time period. I'm fine with that.

And, as I also discussed at length this off season, I was against signing Posey because I wanted Danny to sign players that would strengthen the bench to play a more conventional style of play and add some experience. I was hoping for different players. Not Tony, Eddie and Posey. I wanted a more conventional bench signed of a proven productive 5, a good 2 or proven combo guard who could score, and a defensive minded 3.

We got instead two rookies that won't make a difference this year, a center who is so good that right now he's behind Scalabrine in the rotation, Eddie, who hasn't shown that he's any better at playing the point, and Tony Allen who's game I despise.

That's an overview for more details check back on last summer's posts that I discussed this subject on. For now, what's done is done and I am willing to let the decisions that were made play out and see where they take this team. As Wide Load has said quite a lot, this is probably not a finished product and Danny will probably be making additions and subtractions before we hit the playoff season, so for now, this is a pretty good team to start the season with and I am going to support it and see where it takes us because no matter what Danny did this past off season, nothing was guaranteed by any moves.

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2008, 09:55:14 AM »

Offline winsomme

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A general manager's job is to plan for the short term AND the long term.  Ideally, there should be a balance between winning now and setting yourself to win in the future.  So far, I think Danny has done a good job at it. 

Obviously, all of us are looking at the short term picture but GMs can't think that way.

it's also the GMs job to prioritize and while i agree that DA has done an outstanding job, i think he made a mistake not re-signing Pose....

but he also hasn't replaced him which is really the most important aspect of the whole thing.


Quote
Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

i guess i would disagree with the "just as easily" part of that statement....i don't think they would have just as easily lost with Posey on the team (al things being equal...ie no major injuries to the Big 3, etc...)

but like i said above, the key thing if you're not going to re-sign Pose is to actually replace what he did, and i don't think we have done that yet. and i would rather Danny start working on that now than later because it's not going to be easy.

we don't have a guy off the bench that can guard long wings and we don't have a wing that can knock down three's...gotta start working on that now IMO.


  I disagree with the thought that we need a Posey clone to replace Posey's minutes.

well who guards backup SFs?  you don't think we need another shooter? I'm not really sure what you are suggesting here.

maybe we don't need a clone, but we need someone to do the things he did. i mean, that's like taking a plug out of a drain and saying you don't need to replace it with another plug.

maybe you don't need specifically another plug, but you need something to stop the loss of water whatever you call it...that's how i see it anyway...

  Tony or Ray or Scal can guard backup small forwards. I don't know that we actually need another shooter with KG and Paul and Ray and Eddie in the regular rotation. Pruitt even seems like a decent shooter.

  Posey's not like a plug in a drain. KG or maybe Pierce are. The plug in a drain is indespensible. Posey isn't. He's more like a pen, which could adequately be replaced with a pencil or a marker.

I see what you're saying, but that seems like "closer by committee" which IMO is less effective than just getting one guy to do the job...

plus, I really don't think that Scal and TA can do the job of guarding opposing threes...as witnessed by the Indy game. this is something that i think will continue to be a problem depending on the team and the matchup.

and for the shooting, it's not just shooting that we need IMO, it's 3pt shooting....the way i saw the bench being effective last year was that they got a lot of easy buckets with Eddie and Posey's threes. now they have to work so hard to get points in the second unit.

i agree that Pruitt is the kind of shooter we could need, but in the wrong body. with the second unit being basically built around Ray and Pruitt being an Eddie clone, i don't see a unit with House, Pruitt and Ray....that is really undersized. and then where does that leave TA?

i think we need a legit SF who can defend the position and knock down threes. that for me was the right recipe.

going back to the analogy, agreeing that Pose was more of a pen than a plug....there are situations when a pencil is just not good enough....I mean, i'm not signing a check with a pencil...I'm looking for another pen.

to be fair, granger was toasting paul all night too. That kid was just having a day. Hell, paul even knocked his teeth out and he was still unstoppable., he was hitting contested jumpers over paul and TA like "ya, sorry guys, not tonight."

Ta gaurded Deng to prefection, and looked good against lebron, so i fail to see how were going to say "but he couldn't gaurd granger!" when he helped paul shut down two of the biggest matchup problem SF's in the league.



true enough. but CLE is pretty small and/or unathletic on the wing other than Lebron (DWest, Gibson, Wally) and Chitown is just a hot mess right now (at least they were in the Cs game)....

i think teams with good system and long players on the wing will give us problems in their second unit. it won't be every night, but overall it is something that i am worried about.

plus, my bigger concern is scoring in the second unit. they are going to have to work really hard to score.

i would rather have another sniper out there which could open things up for Powe and BBD and obviously Ray. The Pacers were able to collapse in the middle on defense and it was painful.

it didn't help that nobody could hit the side of a barn in that game, but personally i would like another sniper out there - preferably in the 6'6" - 6'8" range...
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 10:13:21 AM by winsomme »

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2008, 10:02:13 AM »

Offline winsomme

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Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could have won another title.

Danny could have signed Posey and the Celtics could just as easily have lost the title even with Posey on the team.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could still win the championship.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could be because Posey wasn't here.

Danny could have let Posey walk and the Celtics could lose the championship and it could have absolutely nothing to do with Posey being here or not.

These are all possibilities and we can squawk about James Posey's absence all year long but until the season is over, we really will have no idea which of the above scenarios occurred. We are three games into the season and haven't a clue as to how it will turn out. Young players could develop into game changers. Stars could get hurt. A team altering trade could happen. The Celtics could easily have a championship hangover and not meld together again. They could cruise to another title with the team as is.

Let's say we wait about half the season to go by before microanalyzing the "Should we have given Pose that extra a year" argument that we went through all summer long.

Nick once again, can you explain how the heck would a single extra year in Posey's contract have the potential to hinder our chances of winning two titles down the road? In what seasons have our chances of winning increased because we're not paying $7 million in 2012?

I think this "long-term planning" stuff is just an attempt to rationalize Ainge's decision, unless people believe that not having those $7 million on the books by the Summer of 2011 will allow the to make some move with a major impact. It's a really far-fetched scenario and nobody has explained what kind of move they are thinking about.

Also, hindsight is not a proper way of evaluating decision-making. I mean, if KG had broken his leg in his first game for the C's, would that make trading for him a bad decision? Of course not, it was the right decision at that time.

I think you and I had this conversation this summer ad nauseum in a thread regarding this very same subject to the point, if I remember right, where I started naming you Socrates, which, by the way, considering your very intelligent, philosophical, and well communicated posts would be an awesome username for you.

But again, in brief and for the last time here is my stance. It was not the one extra year that would have hindered the Celtics as much as the whole contract. The Celtics and Ainge have worked very diligently at having many if not most of the team's contracts, except for the starters, expire after next year. I don't know what Ainge's long term plans are but they obviously involve having a lot of the team's player expire at the same time with cap flexibility being built in over a number of years.

He didn't want a four year MLE hindering the flexibility he is building towards. Now you may argue that an extra $5-$7 million of cap space isn't much but can you really argue that it doesn't hinder maximizing whatever flexibility Danny is looking for??

Besides, Posey's contract would have almost guaranteed the loss of at least Tony Allen and maybe Tony and Eddie House. I think both were signed with the MLE though Eddie might have been signed under Bird rights, I'm not sure. Either way the entire team was not coming back intact. Someone was going to have to sign elsewhere. Ainge tried to sign Posey for the three year deal figuring he would allow for that. He didn't want to go another year for various reasons one being that he felt it wasn't worth giving a 31+ year old bench player the full MLE for that time period. I'm fine with that.

And, as I also discussed at length this off season, I was against signing Posey because I wanted Danny to sign players that would strengthen the bench to play a more conventional style of play and add some experience. I was hoping for different players. Not Tony, Eddie and Posey. I wanted a more conventional bench signed of a proven productive 5, a good 2 or proven combo guard who could score, and a defensive minded 3.

We got instead two rookies that won't make a difference this year, a center who is so good that right now he's behind Scalabrine in the rotation, Eddie, who hasn't shown that he's any better at playing the point, and Tony Allen who's game I despise.

That's an overview for more details check back on last summer's posts that I discussed this subject on. For now, what's done is done and I am willing to let the decisions that were made play out and see where they take this team. As Wide Load has said quite a lot, this is probably not a finished product and Danny will probably be making additions and subtractions before we hit the playoff season, so for now, this is a pretty good team to start the season with and I am going to support it and see where it takes us because no matter what Danny did this past off season, nothing was guaranteed by any moves.

i agree that Danny probably has ideas about keeping this team at the top when we lose Ray for instance and be able to have money to bring someone else in...

but if this year doesn't go well, that plan IMO is out the window. they can't waste years with GPA by shortchanging the bench....

i actually think Danny is not going to go too long with the bench as it is this season if it struggles...the problem is what is out there.

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2008, 10:23:15 AM »

Offline BballTim

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to be fair, granger was toasting paul all night too. That kid was just having a day. Hell, paul even knocked his teeth out and he was still unstoppable., he was hitting contested jumpers over paul and TA like "ya, sorry guys, not tonight."

Ta gaurded Deng to prefection, and looked good against lebron, so i fail to see how were going to say "but he couldn't gaurd granger!" when he helped paul shut down two of the biggest matchup problem SF's in the league.



true enough. but CLE is pretty small and/or unathletic on the wing other than Lebron (DWest, Gibson, Wally) and Chitown is just a hot mess right now....

i think teams with good system and long players on the wing will give us problems in their second unit. it won't be every night, but overall it is something that i am worried about.

plus, my bigger concern is scoring in the second unit. they are going to have to work really hard to score.

i would rather have another sniper out there which could open things up for Powe and BBD and obviously Ray. The Pacers were able to collapse in the middle on defense and it was painful.

it didn't help that nobody could hit the side of a barn in that game, but personally i would like another sniper out there - preferably in the 6'6" - 6'8" range...

  Cleveland's backup wings aren't that great, but TA seemed to do a pretty good job on LeBron. How many backup wings is tony going to cover that are tougher to guard than LBJ? also, Posey's scoring was more useful when he was with the starters than with the reserves because he can't create. If they don't leave him to double someone else then he doesn't contribute much offensively.

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2008, 11:09:55 AM »

Offline winsomme

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to be fair, granger was toasting paul all night too. That kid was just having a day. Hell, paul even knocked his teeth out and he was still unstoppable., he was hitting contested jumpers over paul and TA like "ya, sorry guys, not tonight."

Ta gaurded Deng to prefection, and looked good against lebron, so i fail to see how were going to say "but he couldn't gaurd granger!" when he helped paul shut down two of the biggest matchup problem SF's in the league.



true enough. but CLE is pretty small and/or unathletic on the wing other than Lebron (DWest, Gibson, Wally) and Chitown is just a hot mess right now....

i think teams with good system and long players on the wing will give us problems in their second unit. it won't be every night, but overall it is something that i am worried about.

plus, my bigger concern is scoring in the second unit. they are going to have to work really hard to score.

i would rather have another sniper out there which could open things up for Powe and BBD and obviously Ray. The Pacers were able to collapse in the middle on defense and it was painful.

it didn't help that nobody could hit the side of a barn in that game, but personally i would like another sniper out there - preferably in the 6'6" - 6'8" range...

  Cleveland's backup wings aren't that great, but TA seemed to do a pretty good job on LeBron. How many backup wings is tony going to cover that are tougher to guard than LBJ? also, Posey's scoring was more useful when he was with the starters than with the reserves because he can't create. If they don't leave him to double someone else then he doesn't contribute much offensively.

yeah TA did a good job on LBJ, but when you have a team that puts more than one long athletic wing out there, that's when we have trouble in the second unit. Eddie can guard Gisbson or Delonte or Williams and so can Ray....

as for offense, i agree that Pose was even more effective playing with the Big 3 (which is another reason to get a SF that can shoot 3s), but even when he was out there with Eddie and Ray, they could really spread the floor and force teams to go out and guard them...

i just think the makeup of the bench right now is going to have to work really hard to score. and i think they could get more easy buckets with another 3pt shooter on the wing.

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2008, 11:22:15 AM »

Offline crownsy

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to be fair, granger was toasting paul all night too. That kid was just having a day. Hell, paul even knocked his teeth out and he was still unstoppable., he was hitting contested jumpers over paul and TA like "ya, sorry guys, not tonight."

Ta gaurded Deng to prefection, and looked good against lebron, so i fail to see how were going to say "but he couldn't gaurd granger!" when he helped paul shut down two of the biggest matchup problem SF's in the league.



true enough. but CLE is pretty small and/or unathletic on the wing other than Lebron (DWest, Gibson, Wally) and Chitown is just a hot mess right now....

i think teams with good system and long players on the wing will give us problems in their second unit. it won't be every night, but overall it is something that i am worried about.

plus, my bigger concern is scoring in the second unit. they are going to have to work really hard to score.

i would rather have another sniper out there which could open things up for Powe and BBD and obviously Ray. The Pacers were able to collapse in the middle on defense and it was painful.

it didn't help that nobody could hit the side of a barn in that game, but personally i would like another sniper out there - preferably in the 6'6" - 6'8" range...

  Cleveland's backup wings aren't that great, but TA seemed to do a pretty good job on LeBron. How many backup wings is tony going to cover that are tougher to guard than LBJ? also, Posey's scoring was more useful when he was with the starters than with the reserves because he can't create. If they don't leave him to double someone else then he doesn't contribute much offensively.

yeah TA did a good job on LBJ, but when you have a team that puts more than one long athletic wing out there, that's when we have trouble in the second unit. Eddie can guard Gisbson or Delonte or Williams and so can Ray....

as for offense, i agree that Pose was even more effective playing with the Big 3 (which is another reason to get a SF that can shoot 3s), but even when he was out there with Eddie and Ray, they could really spread the floor and force teams to go out and guard them...

i just think the makeup of the bench right now is going to have to work really hard to score. and i think they could get more easy buckets with another 3pt shooter on the wing.

how many teams really put out 2 long, quality wings off the bench when Ta will see most of his time? under this scenario, some team has to have 2 long athletic wings off the bench in addition to thier starter. If a team tried to go, lets say in clevelands case lebron + second athletic SF they don't currently have but gopt later in the year, doc would put pierce back in on lebron with TA to counter the other guy. there's no rule that says we can't sub in paul in the unlikely event this happens.

if were just going to keep inventing scenarios where we'll struggle,  this isn't really going to be productive. i can think of mabey 3 teams, 2 of which aren't very good that can go "A-HA! so you have tony in with your bench eh? time for our two super athletic wing bench players we have in addition tot he starter!" ones atlanta, The other one is charlotte. i'm not really worried about either of those teams. The only other team i can think of thats any good that has that kind of athleticism at the wing off the bench is the wizards with stevenson's backups, and im not even sure there going to be good this year.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 11:33:05 AM by crownsy »
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2008, 11:42:27 AM »

Offline winsomme

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to be fair, granger was toasting paul all night too. That kid was just having a day. Hell, paul even knocked his teeth out and he was still unstoppable., he was hitting contested jumpers over paul and TA like "ya, sorry guys, not tonight."

Ta gaurded Deng to prefection, and looked good against lebron, so i fail to see how were going to say "but he couldn't gaurd granger!" when he helped paul shut down two of the biggest matchup problem SF's in the league.



true enough. but CLE is pretty small and/or unathletic on the wing other than Lebron (DWest, Gibson, Wally) and Chitown is just a hot mess right now....

i think teams with good system and long players on the wing will give us problems in their second unit. it won't be every night, but overall it is something that i am worried about.

plus, my bigger concern is scoring in the second unit. they are going to have to work really hard to score.

i would rather have another sniper out there which could open things up for Powe and BBD and obviously Ray. The Pacers were able to collapse in the middle on defense and it was painful.

it didn't help that nobody could hit the side of a barn in that game, but personally i would like another sniper out there - preferably in the 6'6" - 6'8" range...

  Cleveland's backup wings aren't that great, but TA seemed to do a pretty good job on LeBron. How many backup wings is tony going to cover that are tougher to guard than LBJ? also, Posey's scoring was more useful when he was with the starters than with the reserves because he can't create. If they don't leave him to double someone else then he doesn't contribute much offensively.

yeah TA did a good job on LBJ, but when you have a team that puts more than one long athletic wing out there, that's when we have trouble in the second unit. Eddie can guard Gisbson or Delonte or Williams and so can Ray....

as for offense, i agree that Pose was even more effective playing with the Big 3 (which is another reason to get a SF that can shoot 3s), but even when he was out there with Eddie and Ray, they could really spread the floor and force teams to go out and guard them...

i just think the makeup of the bench right now is going to have to work really hard to score. and i think they could get more easy buckets with another 3pt shooter on the wing.

how many teams really put out 2 long, quality wings off the bench when Ta will see most of his time? under this scenario, some team has to have 2 long athletic wings off the bench in addition to thier starter. If a team tried to go, lets say in clevelands case lebron + second athletic SF they don't currently have but gopt later in the year, doc would put pierce back in on lebron with TA to counter the other guy. there's no rule that says we can't sub in paul in the unlikely event this happens.

if were just going to keep inventing scenarios where we'll struggle,  this isn't really going to be productive. i can think of mabey 3 teams, 2 of which aren't very good that can go "A-HA! so you have tony in with your bench eh? time for our two super athletic wing bench players we have in addition tot he starter!" ones atlanta, The other one is charlotte. i'm not really worried about either of those teams. The only other team i can think of thats any good that has that kind of athleticism at the wing off the bench is the wizards with stevenson's backups, and im not even sure there going to be good this year.

well Indy was a tough matchup....in the EC there's ATL, TOR, ORL with long wings...just off the top of my head...

very interested to see how we do with PHILLY...with AI and ThadYoung...they could be our toughest challenge this year....

LAL got Ariza back this year. NO has Pose...I don't know, i'd have to go look at it...

but i think the most overlooked thing about what Pose did here and we definitely have not replaced is knocking down those big 3s....


Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2008, 11:48:44 AM »

Offline crownsy

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to be fair, granger was toasting paul all night too. That kid was just having a day. Hell, paul even knocked his teeth out and he was still unstoppable., he was hitting contested jumpers over paul and TA like "ya, sorry guys, not tonight."

Ta gaurded Deng to prefection, and looked good against lebron, so i fail to see how were going to say "but he couldn't gaurd granger!" when he helped paul shut down two of the biggest matchup problem SF's in the league.



true enough. but CLE is pretty small and/or unathletic on the wing other than Lebron (DWest, Gibson, Wally) and Chitown is just a hot mess right now....

i think teams with good system and long players on the wing will give us problems in their second unit. it won't be every night, but overall it is something that i am worried about.

plus, my bigger concern is scoring in the second unit. they are going to have to work really hard to score.

i would rather have another sniper out there which could open things up for Powe and BBD and obviously Ray. The Pacers were able to collapse in the middle on defense and it was painful.

it didn't help that nobody could hit the side of a barn in that game, but personally i would like another sniper out there - preferably in the 6'6" - 6'8" range...

  Cleveland's backup wings aren't that great, but TA seemed to do a pretty good job on LeBron. How many backup wings is tony going to cover that are tougher to guard than LBJ? also, Posey's scoring was more useful when he was with the starters than with the reserves because he can't create. If they don't leave him to double someone else then he doesn't contribute much offensively.

yeah TA did a good job on LBJ, but when you have a team that puts more than one long athletic wing out there, that's when we have trouble in the second unit. Eddie can guard Gisbson or Delonte or Williams and so can Ray....

as for offense, i agree that Pose was even more effective playing with the Big 3 (which is another reason to get a SF that can shoot 3s), but even when he was out there with Eddie and Ray, they could really spread the floor and force teams to go out and guard them...

i just think the makeup of the bench right now is going to have to work really hard to score. and i think they could get more easy buckets with another 3pt shooter on the wing.

how many teams really put out 2 long, quality wings off the bench when Ta will see most of his time? under this scenario, some team has to have 2 long athletic wings off the bench in addition to thier starter. If a team tried to go, lets say in clevelands case lebron + second athletic SF they don't currently have but gopt later in the year, doc would put pierce back in on lebron with TA to counter the other guy. there's no rule that says we can't sub in paul in the unlikely event this happens.

if were just going to keep inventing scenarios where we'll struggle,  this isn't really going to be productive. i can think of mabey 3 teams, 2 of which aren't very good that can go "A-HA! so you have tony in with your bench eh? time for our two super athletic wing bench players we have in addition tot he starter!" ones atlanta, The other one is charlotte. i'm not really worried about either of those teams. The only other team i can think of thats any good that has that kind of athleticism at the wing off the bench is the wizards with stevenson's backups, and im not even sure there going to be good this year.

well Indy was a tough matchup....in the EC there's ATL, TOR, ORL with long wings...just off the top of my head...

very interested to see how we do with PHILLY...with AI and ThadYoung...they could be our toughest challenge this year....

LAL got Ariza back this year. NO has Pose...I don't know, i'd have to go look at it...

but i think the most overlooked thing about what Pose did here and we definitely have not replaced is knocking down those big 3s....



your scenario doesn't call for A long bench wing, it calls for two.

you conceded that Ta did fine on deng and LBJ, two of the best "long" wings in the conferance. your scenario here calls for a time when TA and the crew will have to deal with two athletic wings. If one of them is the starter and its a close game, Doc will play Pierce and TA, as he did for a stretch against the bulls.

So, for your scenario to work, a team needs TWO long athletic bench wings. That list is much smaller than the "who has a good Wing player" list.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: James Posey Threads (merged)
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2008, 11:53:24 AM »

Offline BballTim

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to be fair, granger was toasting paul all night too. That kid was just having a day. Hell, paul even knocked his teeth out and he was still unstoppable., he was hitting contested jumpers over paul and TA like "ya, sorry guys, not tonight."

Ta gaurded Deng to prefection, and looked good against lebron, so i fail to see how were going to say "but he couldn't gaurd granger!" when he helped paul shut down two of the biggest matchup problem SF's in the league.



true enough. but CLE is pretty small and/or unathletic on the wing other than Lebron (DWest, Gibson, Wally) and Chitown is just a hot mess right now....

i think teams with good system and long players on the wing will give us problems in their second unit. it won't be every night, but overall it is something that i am worried about.

plus, my bigger concern is scoring in the second unit. they are going to have to work really hard to score.

i would rather have another sniper out there which could open things up for Powe and BBD and obviously Ray. The Pacers were able to collapse in the middle on defense and it was painful.

it didn't help that nobody could hit the side of a barn in that game, but personally i would like another sniper out there - preferably in the 6'6" - 6'8" range...

  Cleveland's backup wings aren't that great, but TA seemed to do a pretty good job on LeBron. How many backup wings is tony going to cover that are tougher to guard than LBJ? also, Posey's scoring was more useful when he was with the starters than with the reserves because he can't create. If they don't leave him to double someone else then he doesn't contribute much offensively.

yeah TA did a good job on LBJ, but when you have a team that puts more than one long athletic wing out there, that's when we have trouble in the second unit. Eddie can guard Gisbson or Delonte or Williams and so can Ray....

as for offense, i agree that Pose was even more effective playing with the Big 3 (which is another reason to get a SF that can shoot 3s), but even when he was out there with Eddie and Ray, they could really spread the floor and force teams to go out and guard them...

i just think the makeup of the bench right now is going to have to work really hard to score. and i think they could get more easy buckets with another 3pt shooter on the wing.

how many teams really put out 2 long, quality wings off the bench when Ta will see most of his time? under this scenario, some team has to have 2 long athletic wings off the bench in addition to thier starter. If a team tried to go, lets say in clevelands case lebron + second athletic SF they don't currently have but gopt later in the year, doc would put pierce back in on lebron with TA to counter the other guy. there's no rule that says we can't sub in paul in the unlikely event this happens.

if were just going to keep inventing scenarios where we'll struggle,  this isn't really going to be productive. i can think of mabey 3 teams, 2 of which aren't very good that can go "A-HA! so you have tony in with your bench eh? time for our two super athletic wing bench players we have in addition tot he starter!" ones atlanta, The other one is charlotte. i'm not really worried about either of those teams. The only other team i can think of thats any good that has that kind of athleticism at the wing off the bench is the wizards with stevenson's backups, and im not even sure there going to be good this year.

well Indy was a tough matchup....in the EC there's ATL, TOR, ORL with long wings...just off the top of my head...

very interested to see how we do with PHILLY...with AI and ThadYoung...they could be our toughest challenge this year....

LAL got Ariza back this year. NO has Pose...I don't know, i'd have to go look at it...

but i think the most overlooked thing about what Pose did here and we definitely have not replaced is knocking down those big 3s....



  James Posey's long but he's not overly athletic and he's just a spot up shooter. Who are these long, athletic backup wings on Atlanta, Orlando or Toronto?