Is Kevin Garnett a shell of the dominant force from 01-05?

[Donoghus]

Wow. 

[KevinGamble]

Hmm,

Interesting question from a man with so many Tommy points, so lets take a look...

Kevin Garnett is actually 32 this season.  The internet supports  his existence prior to -01, but I confess I have never met him.  Further, the records for the NBA do not indicate a team called "dominant force,"  and if you are talking about an alien race, then I still havn't heard of them   (Although there may be someone very close to the Celtics you could ask.)

Still, KG does seem inhuman sometimes the way he is so intense and perfectly proportioned as an athlete, so maybe you were thinking that KG was made "a cyborg of the dominant force from 01-05?"  Or maybe, "Is KG out of his exo-skeleton at ring ceremonies?"

I hope this was a "dominant farce"

[JBcat]

And just for the sake of it...

Shaq started a steady but slightly rapid decline in his 14th season.

Michael Jordan's 14th and 15th season were the two with the Wizards.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar never averaged more than 7.9 board a game after his 13th season and scored 5-10 PPG lower than his peak years.

Charles Barkley only played 3 seasons after finishing his 13th year and averaged 15.2, 16.2, and 14.5 points on .485, .478, and .477 shooting.

Karl Malone, possibly the most physically durable basketball player ever, played 6 seasons after his 13th and only shot better than 50% once and never averaged double digit boards.

I don't really need to explain what this shows in regards to KG.

There are some things wrong with your comparisons.  First KG came into the league right out of high school so he is younger in his 14th season than just about everyone you listed.  Plus he doesn't have the deep into the playoffs year in and year out wear and tear like some of these guys.  Third KG takes care of his body better than even most superstars.   Lastly you fail to mention KG is 32 and MJ at 32 went on to win 3 more titles, Shaq won a title at age 33, Karl Malone went to the finals at age 33 and 34, Jabbar entered the 80s at age 33, and one of my all time favorites Olajuwon won a title at age 32.  Championships are what matter now and not exactly stats when they are this stage in their careers.  

[ma11l]

KG had a poor game last night.  Didn't shoot the ball well, including free throws.  He was being outrebounded by Varajeo which just shouldn't. 


Bottom line is that it was one bad performance, on a night where the whole team was put in a very difficult decision.  That was no way to get ready for the opening game of the season against LeBron James.  I think we can give him a pass and not write him off as not being dominant just quite yet.

[wdleehi]

KG won the DPOY last year. 


Won a title.





Seems that is more dominate then putting up big numbers and either losing in the first round or missing the playoffs.

[drza44]

This really wasn't even worth responding to, but I find I couldn't resist.  Building on what a few others have said already:

Last year in the regular season, KG...

finished 3rd in the MVP vote

was the Defensive Player of the year

Finished in the top-5 in the NBA in every advanced stat going (PER, Roland Rating, Wins Produced, etc. etc.)

Last year in the playoffs, KG...

led the Celtics in points and rebounds

was among the league leaders in every advanced playoff stat measured (PER, Roland Rating, +/-, etc.)

Held every PF he faced well under their season numbers 1-on-1 (including 3 very good players in Josh Smith, Rasheed Wallace and Lamar Odom), while simultaneously giving a lot of help to slow down the LeBrons and Kobes of the world.

Led the Celtics in 4th quarter scoring (obliterating the "only plays 3 quarters myth").  And no matter how close the games were, he still led the team in scoring.  He led the Cs in 4th quarter scoring in games decided by 10 points or less, 7 points or less, or 4 points or less.

And all of that is just ON the court, not in any way touching on all of the intangibles and culture-changing impact that EVERYONE attributes to him.  Many argue that his off-court impact was as big as any on-court impact, and ON the court he was huge.

If KG has fallen off, as the OP suggests, and STILL was able to do all of that on a championship team?  I think the only word that works is...wow.

[Big Ticket]

And just for the sake of it...

Shaq started a steady but slightly rapid decline in his 14th season.

Michael Jordan's 14th and 15th season were the two with the Wizards.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar never averaged more than 7.9 board a game after his 13th season and scored 5-10 PPG lower than his peak years.

Charles Barkley only played 3 seasons after finishing his 13th year and averaged 15.2, 16.2, and 14.5 points on .485, .478, and .477 shooting.

Karl Malone, possibly the most physically durable basketball player ever, played 6 seasons after his 13th and only shot better than 50% once and never averaged double digit boards.

I don't really need to explain what this shows in regards to KG.

There are some things wrong with your comparisons.  First KG came into the league right out of high school so he is younger in his 14th season than just about everyone you listed.  Plus he doesn't have the deep into the playoffs year in and year out wear and tear like some of these guys.  Third KG takes care of his body better than even most superstars.   Lastly you fail to mention KG is 32 and MJ at 32 went on to win 3 more titles, Shaq won a title at age 33, Karl Malone went to the finals at age 33 and 34, Jabbar entered the 80s at age 33, and one of my all time favorites Olajuwon won a title at age 32.  Championships are what matter now and not exactly stats when they are this stage in their careers.  

I don't think I was wrong at all.  Most of those guys still started when they were 20-22, KG started when he was 19.  A couple years of college is nothing close to the grind that you experience in the NBA.  Add to that, KG has missed an average of about 1-2 games a year in those 13 seasons, so he has played A LOT of games.  And you say he takes care of his body more than anyone... I say he works harder than anyone, which puts even more stress on his body.  MJ also took a couple years off before those last 3 titles.  Those players reaching those feats at age 33-34 is not the same as KG doing it at 33-34.  There's not a ton of evidence, because KG is the first from the recent waive of prep-to-pros, but I think soon you'll start seeing fewer and fewer dominant players in their early to mid 30s.  NBA players are starting at a younger age and proving that it's mileage, not age, that determines a human's career durability.

And I never said that stats are what matters at this point.  I realize that stats can decline while a player can still be extremely effective and contribute greatly to a championship (many of those I mentioned did just that, KG did it last year).  The OP is completely missing that point.

[celticmaestro]

There is no way on God's green earth that Garnett is still a top tier NBA player. Maybe top 15 today.

[JBcat]

And just for the sake of it...

Shaq started a steady but slightly rapid decline in his 14th season.

Michael Jordan's 14th and 15th season were the two with the Wizards.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar never averaged more than 7.9 board a game after his 13th season and scored 5-10 PPG lower than his peak years.

Charles Barkley only played 3 seasons after finishing his 13th year and averaged 15.2, 16.2, and 14.5 points on .485, .478, and .477 shooting.

Karl Malone, possibly the most physically durable basketball player ever, played 6 seasons after his 13th and only shot better than 50% once and never averaged double digit boards.

I don't really need to explain what this shows in regards to KG.

There are some things wrong with your comparisons.  First KG came into the league right out of high school so he is younger in his 14th season than just about everyone you listed.  Plus he doesn't have the deep into the playoffs year in and year out wear and tear like some of these guys.  Third KG takes care of his body better than even most superstars.   Lastly you fail to mention KG is 32 and MJ at 32 went on to win 3 more titles, Shaq won a title at age 33, Karl Malone went to the finals at age 33 and 34, Jabbar entered the 80s at age 33, and one of my all time favorites Olajuwon won a title at age 32.  Championships are what matter now and not exactly stats when they are this stage in their careers.  

I don't think I was wrong at all.  Most of those guys still started when they were 20-22, KG started when he was 19.  A couple years of college is nothing close to the grind that you experience in the NBA.  Add to that, KG has missed an average of about 1-2 games a year in those 13 seasons, so he has played A LOT of games.  And you say he takes care of his body more than anyone... I say he works harder than anyone, which puts even more stress on his body.  MJ also took a couple years off before those last 3 titles.  Those players reaching those feats at age 33-34 is not the same as KG doing it at 33-34.  There's not a ton of evidence, because KG is the first from the recent waive of prep-to-pros, but I think soon you'll start seeing fewer and fewer dominant players in their early to mid 30s.  NBA players are starting at a younger age and proving that it's mileage, not age, that determines a human's career durability.

And I never said that stats are what matters at this point.  I realize that stats can decline while a player can still be extremely effective and contribute greatly to a championship (many of those I mentioned did just that, KG did it last year).  The OP is completely missing that point.

Well you have to factor in total playoff games as well.  For example Karl Malone played a total of 193 playoff games over his career and Garnett is only at 73 so in that sense it offsets the mileage at little.   Anyway you make you make a good point but we'll just have to see what happens over the next couple years.   Keep in mind part of why Garnett's numbers were down last year was because he only played 32.8 MPG while his lowest MPG from his second season on was 37.9.   Also he has  better rebounders around him than he did with the Wolves so his rebound totals might go down slightly because of it.

[ACF]

Hmm,

Interesting question from a man with so many Tommy points, so lets take a look...

Kevin Garnett is actually 32 this season.  The internet supports  his existence prior to -01, but I confess I have never met him.  Further, the records for the NBA do not indicate a team called "dominant force,"  and if you are talking about an alien race, then I still havn't heard of them   (Although there may be someone very close to the Celtics you could ask.)

Still, KG does seem inhuman sometimes the way he is so intense and perfectly proportioned as an athlete, so maybe you were thinking that KG was made "a cyborg of the dominant force from 01-05?"  Or maybe, "Is KG out of his exo-skeleton at ring ceremonies?"

I hope this was a "dominant farce"

It was and it was also well
worth a Tommy Point.

[TrueGreen]

Why are we even having this conversation? Who cares about comparing KG today to several years ago. It's apples and oranges.
Kevin Garnett is a member of the WORLD CHAMPION BOSTON CELTICS. He is one player on a 15 man roster. The Boston Celtics is a basketball TEAM. If we need to pass judgment or make comparisons let's do it in the context of KG's role on this TEAM. That's all that really matters. Last year it seemed to be our job to put down Kendrick Perkins. I think we finally understand what Perk means to this team. If anyone doesn't understand, research some of the things KG says about Perk. Perk is a very important part of the Boston Celtics. KG is a very important part of the Boston Celtics. The sum of the parts is a World Champion Basketball TEAM.

[ma11l]

There is no way on God's green earth that Garnett is still a top tier NBA player. Maybe top 15 today.

Hahahaha.  TP.

[Roy Hobbs]

KG won the DPOY last year. 


Won a title.





Seems that is more dominate then putting up big numbers and either losing in the first round or missing the playoffs.

What he said.

[moiso]

He is still a great player and teammate.  He won DPOY and a title.  But the fact is that yes, he has declined a little bit.  Check the PER numbers.  Not complaining at all, don't get me wrong.

[Sweet17]

KG is a top player because of his great team defense (perhaps the best in the league) and his incredibly versatile offensive player with his outside and inside game - as well as his very underrated passing.

I actually agree that he isn't the greatest guy in the world when you NEED a hoop. But I wouldn't call him a bad option then either. He is just not an offensive instigator..He excels being part of the flow..

It really took me a year of watching him to apperciate why in fact he IS a top five player. KG doesn't fit your prototype PF role but his package of skill is amazingly effective in the NBA. I think he will be good longer then Pierce or Allen with his size and skill.