Argument: Pierce vs. Lebron (help!)

[drza44]

Some points to bring up regarding this argument though I think the two are about as even against each other as it comes:

- Are we talking about one on one against each other or team results against each other. One on one, the players are very evenly matched and if that is your stance then what exactly does the results of the series or who they play with have anything to do with this argument. It doesn't so most of your friend's retort is meaningless.

- Even the most ardent Cavs fans that I know will admit that LeBron plays by one set of rules and the rest of the NBA plays by another. LeBron, one on one against Pierce always gets to play more physical and will always go to the line more because the refs call fouls on him and by him more in his favor than any other player in the league. If your friend can't admit to this then stop the argument right there because you aren't dealing with a person with any objectiveity whatsoever and you will be wasting your breath.

- LeBron doesn't play defense against Pierce better than Pierce plays defense against LeBron. Both players are probably, along with Ron Artest, the only really good "power" 3's in the league. Out of the three players, LeBron is the worst of the three defensively against each other. On the other hand, LeBron is a handful and a half for Pierce but Pierce might just be a handful and three quarters for LeBron because he is such a better outside shooter and better FT shooter.

- LeBron is slowly but surely transforming his game into that of a PF. As he does it is going to become harder and harder for him to handle Pierce as Pierce will simply do what he did last night and out-quck him and leave LeBron holding his jock. It happened on three seperate occasions last night and leBron looked bad. If LeBron decides to get any bigger it won't be long before Mike Brown has someone else guarding Pierce. Maybe not this year but possibly next year and beyond.

Hope that helps and I wonder what your buddy will say to these points.

Every cavs I fan I know (I live in Ohio) is in absolute denial that KING James is capable of breaking a rule, let alone not being called for one.  Then again, most of the "Cavs fans" I meet here want to talk trash about our Beloved Boys in Green so I put them all to the same test - I just ask who Mark Price is.

So far two people have been able to answer, out of maybe 15-20.

In other words, they aren't real fans just Hype-Zombies.

I went to Case Western in the mid eighties and actually saw a bunch of Mark Price Cavalier basketball in the later 80's. I loved going to the Cavs games when Price, Daugherty, Harper and Nance were all there and in their primes. Harper especially before ripping apart his knee? Ankle? Can't remember which but that kid could sky when young and Nance was a freak too. Price's calmness, passing ability and sweet outside shot was a perfect fit for that team.

Price was also a helluva college player at GT.

The first time I watched the NCAA tournament I followed that GT team. Became a Price fan after that.

Harper could fly back then. He was fast and had ups. His game changed so much as he aged. I remember watching him throw down in a pre-season DOUBLEHEADER (imagine that) at MSG when I was in HS.

Harper was the main favorite player of my childhood, the first one that I chose after my first favorite (Dr. J) retired.  He's from my home town, went to a high school that my mom used to teach at, then went to a local school (Miami of Ohio) for college.  I went to see him play against the Louisville team with Pervis Ellison that eventually won the National Championship, and I went to his first home game as a rookie in '86.  Me and my dad used to listen to those Cavs teams on the radio, and I was absolutely convinced that one day they would get past Jordan and represent on the big stage. 

I was so heartbroken when the Cavs traded him to the Clippers (the Clippers!) for Danny Ferry (Danny Ferry!) that I've never been able to truly get behind the Cavs again.  And don't even get me started on how that contributed to my hatred of Duke basketball (which is ironic, considering I now work here and am constantly surrounded by Dukies)...

[Redz]

Some points to bring up regarding this argument though I think the two are about as even against each other as it comes:

- Are we talking about one on one against each other or team results against each other. One on one, the players are very evenly matched and if that is your stance then what exactly does the results of the series or who they play with have anything to do with this argument. It doesn't so most of your friend's retort is meaningless.

- Even the most ardent Cavs fans that I know will admit that LeBron plays by one set of rules and the rest of the NBA plays by another. LeBron, one on one against Pierce always gets to play more physical and will always go to the line more because the refs call fouls on him and by him more in his favor than any other player in the league. If your friend can't admit to this then stop the argument right there because you aren't dealing with a person with any objectiveity whatsoever and you will be wasting your breath.

- LeBron doesn't play defense against Pierce better than Pierce plays defense against LeBron. Both players are probably, along with Ron Artest, the only really good "power" 3's in the league. Out of the three players, LeBron is the worst of the three defensively against each other. On the other hand, LeBron is a handful and a half for Pierce but Pierce might just be a handful and three quarters for LeBron because he is such a better outside shooter and better FT shooter.

- LeBron is slowly but surely transforming his game into that of a PF. As he does it is going to become harder and harder for him to handle Pierce as Pierce will simply do what he did last night and out-quck him and leave LeBron holding his jock. It happened on three seperate occasions last night and leBron looked bad. If LeBron decides to get any bigger it won't be long before Mike Brown has someone else guarding Pierce. Maybe not this year but possibly next year and beyond.

Hope that helps and I wonder what your buddy will say to these points.

Every cavs I fan I know (I live in Ohio) is in absolute denial that KING James is capable of breaking a rule, let alone not being called for one.  Then again, most of the "Cavs fans" I meet here want to talk trash about our Beloved Boys in Green so I put them all to the same test - I just ask who Mark Price is.

So far two people have been able to answer, out of maybe 15-20.

In other words, they aren't real fans just Hype-Zombies.

I went to Case Western in the mid eighties and actually saw a bunch of Mark Price Cavalier basketball in the later 80's. I loved going to the Cavs games when Price, Daugherty, Harper and Nance were all there and in their primes. Harper especially before ripping apart his knee? Ankle? Can't remember which but that kid could sky when young and Nance was a freak too. Price's calmness, passing ability and sweet outside shot was a perfect fit for that team.

Price was also a helluva college player at GT.

The first time I watched the NCAA tournament I followed that GT team. Became a Price fan after that.

Harper could fly back then. He was fast and had ups. His game changed so much as he aged. I remember watching him throw down in a pre-season DOUBLEHEADER (imagine that) at MSG when I was in HS.

Since we're giving some love for Mark Price, I'll chime in that he was the best I can remember at bringing the ball up at full tilt, stopping on a dime, and canning a jumper.

[nickagneta]

Some points to bring up regarding this argument though I think the two are about as even against each other as it comes:

- Are we talking about one on one against each other or team results against each other. One on one, the players are very evenly matched and if that is your stance then what exactly does the results of the series or who they play with have anything to do with this argument. It doesn't so most of your friend's retort is meaningless.

- Even the most ardent Cavs fans that I know will admit that LeBron plays by one set of rules and the rest of the NBA plays by another. LeBron, one on one against Pierce always gets to play more physical and will always go to the line more because the refs call fouls on him and by him more in his favor than any other player in the league. If your friend can't admit to this then stop the argument right there because you aren't dealing with a person with any objectiveity whatsoever and you will be wasting your breath.

- LeBron doesn't play defense against Pierce better than Pierce plays defense against LeBron. Both players are probably, along with Ron Artest, the only really good "power" 3's in the league. Out of the three players, LeBron is the worst of the three defensively against each other. On the other hand, LeBron is a handful and a half for Pierce but Pierce might just be a handful and three quarters for LeBron because he is such a better outside shooter and better FT shooter.

- LeBron is slowly but surely transforming his game into that of a PF. As he does it is going to become harder and harder for him to handle Pierce as Pierce will simply do what he did last night and out-quck him and leave LeBron holding his jock. It happened on three seperate occasions last night and leBron looked bad. If LeBron decides to get any bigger it won't be long before Mike Brown has someone else guarding Pierce. Maybe not this year but possibly next year and beyond.

Hope that helps and I wonder what your buddy will say to these points.

Every cavs I fan I know (I live in Ohio) is in absolute denial that KING James is capable of breaking a rule, let alone not being called for one.  Then again, most of the "Cavs fans" I meet here want to talk trash about our Beloved Boys in Green so I put them all to the same test - I just ask who Mark Price is.

So far two people have been able to answer, out of maybe 15-20.

In other words, they aren't real fans just Hype-Zombies.

I went to Case Western in the mid eighties and actually saw a bunch of Mark Price Cavalier basketball in the later 80's. I loved going to the Cavs games when Price, Daugherty, Harper and Nance were all there and in their primes. Harper especially before ripping apart his knee? Ankle? Can't remember which but that kid could sky when young and Nance was a freak too. Price's calmness, passing ability and sweet outside shot was a perfect fit for that team.

Price was also a helluva college player at GT.

The first time I watched the NCAA tournament I followed that GT team. Became a Price fan after that.

Harper could fly back then. He was fast and had ups. His game changed so much as he aged. I remember watching him throw down in a pre-season DOUBLEHEADER (imagine that) at MSG when I was in HS.

Since we're giving some love for Mark Price, I'll chime in that he was the best I can remember at bringing the ball up at full tilt, stopping on a dime, and canning a jumper.

And that could of happened at 15 feet, 18 feet, 21 feet or past the three. Didn't he hit like over 50% from 3 point land one year? I think I'll have to look that up.

[Redz]

Some points to bring up regarding this argument though I think the two are about as even against each other as it comes:

- Are we talking about one on one against each other or team results against each other. One on one, the players are very evenly matched and if that is your stance then what exactly does the results of the series or who they play with have anything to do with this argument. It doesn't so most of your friend's retort is meaningless.

- Even the most ardent Cavs fans that I know will admit that LeBron plays by one set of rules and the rest of the NBA plays by another. LeBron, one on one against Pierce always gets to play more physical and will always go to the line more because the refs call fouls on him and by him more in his favor than any other player in the league. If your friend can't admit to this then stop the argument right there because you aren't dealing with a person with any objectiveity whatsoever and you will be wasting your breath.

- LeBron doesn't play defense against Pierce better than Pierce plays defense against LeBron. Both players are probably, along with Ron Artest, the only really good "power" 3's in the league. Out of the three players, LeBron is the worst of the three defensively against each other. On the other hand, LeBron is a handful and a half for Pierce but Pierce might just be a handful and three quarters for LeBron because he is such a better outside shooter and better FT shooter.

- LeBron is slowly but surely transforming his game into that of a PF. As he does it is going to become harder and harder for him to handle Pierce as Pierce will simply do what he did last night and out-quck him and leave LeBron holding his jock. It happened on three seperate occasions last night and leBron looked bad. If LeBron decides to get any bigger it won't be long before Mike Brown has someone else guarding Pierce. Maybe not this year but possibly next year and beyond.

Hope that helps and I wonder what your buddy will say to these points.

Every cavs I fan I know (I live in Ohio) is in absolute denial that KING James is capable of breaking a rule, let alone not being called for one.  Then again, most of the "Cavs fans" I meet here want to talk trash about our Beloved Boys in Green so I put them all to the same test - I just ask who Mark Price is.

So far two people have been able to answer, out of maybe 15-20.

In other words, they aren't real fans just Hype-Zombies.

I went to Case Western in the mid eighties and actually saw a bunch of Mark Price Cavalier basketball in the later 80's. I loved going to the Cavs games when Price, Daugherty, Harper and Nance were all there and in their primes. Harper especially before ripping apart his knee? Ankle? Can't remember which but that kid could sky when young and Nance was a freak too. Price's calmness, passing ability and sweet outside shot was a perfect fit for that team.

Price was also a helluva college player at GT.

The first time I watched the NCAA tournament I followed that GT team. Became a Price fan after that.

Harper could fly back then. He was fast and had ups. His game changed so much as he aged. I remember watching him throw down in a pre-season DOUBLEHEADER (imagine that) at MSG when I was in HS.

Since we're giving some love for Mark Price, I'll chime in that he was the best I can remember at bringing the ball up at full tilt, stopping on a dime, and canning a jumper.

And that could of happened at 15 feet, 18 feet, 21 feet or past the three. Didn't he hit like over 50% from 3 point land one year? I think I'll have to look that up.

He came close his 2nd year

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pricema01.html

[makaveli]

5 years (or so) people would say Pierce is in top 20 players in league, now they put him in KG's shadow leadership-wise. He showed who is the best defender and player on this team and in the league, and i guess it will take this season to show all that. He is the most versile, confident player since MJ. Why is it so hard to see?? I saw 7 years ago that pierce is one of a kind player and a very few players can say that they dont dream of him the day after the game...

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the responses!

How did I not receive a single TP for this thread Yeesh 

How did part of this discussion turn into that of Mark Price? lol Hilarious! How can one NOT know about Mark Price (weather he was before one's time or not is irrelevant).

Thanks again for all the help, and I'll reply with my friends' rebuttal (if there is one).

[blake]

Owned.

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

For those interested....here was is what I wrote to my friend:

"-Even the most ardent Cavs fans that I know will admit that LeBron plays by one set of rules and the rest of the NBA plays by another. LeBron, one on one against Pierce always gets to play more physical and will always go to the line more because the refs call fouls on him and by him more in his favor than any other player in the league. If you can't admit to this then I'm stopping the argument right there.

- LeBron doesn't play defense against Pierce better than Pierce plays defense against LeBron. Both players are probably, along with Ron Artest, the only really good "power" 3's in the league. Out of the three players, LeBron is the worst of the three defensively against each other. On the other hand, LeBron is a handful and a half for Pierce but Pierce might just be a handful and three quarters for LeBron because he is such a better outside shooter and better FT shooter.

- LeBron is slowly but surely transforming his game into that of a PF. As he does it is going to become harder and harder for him to handle Pierce as Pierce will simply do what he did on opening night and out-quick him and leave LeBron holding his jock. It happened on three seperate occasions on opening night and leBron looked bad. If LeBron decides to get any bigger it won't be long before Mike Brown has someone else guarding Pierce. Maybe not this year but possibly next year and beyond.

-Lastly...Pierce made it to an ECF with only Antione Walker and Kenny Anderson.. that's not MUCH different from Lebron making the finals with the players he had...is it? At this point in time I think Lebron is clearly the more physically talented player, but Pierce is the smarter more well rounded baller. "


And this was his response:

"I won't address the specific points of your arguments until you address the broad one of mine: The 2008 Boston Celtics were a vastly superior team than the Cleveland Cavaliers 1-12, yet the Cavs took them to a very close game 7. Much of this can be attributed to the incredible performance of Lebron James, especially in Game 7. So how does this relate to Pierce 'owning' him?"


Now, what should I come back with???

[Donoghus]

And this was his response:

"I won't address the specific points of your arguments until you address the broad one of mine: The 2008 Boston Celtics were a vastly superior team than the Cleveland Cavaliers 1-12, yet the Cavs took them to a very close game 7. Much of this can be attributed to the incredible performance of Lebron James, especially in Game 7. So how does this relate to Pierce 'owning' him?"


Now, what should I come back with???

To be honest, I think you backed yourself into a corner with that "owned" comment.  Pretty strong word and, personally, Pierce didn't own LeBron.

[nickagneta]

Let him know that the Hawks took the Celtics to seven as well and that can directly be attributable to Josh Smith's great play. Does that mean Smith is better than Pierce?

No. That means that for 3 road games the Celtics as a team stunk it up in Atlanta.

The fact that Cleveland is an inferior team when compared to Boston(they are) and that they took the Celtics to seven games(they did, but so did the Hawks) means squat when comparing Pierce to LeBron whether it is as head to head competitors or whether it is as individual players as a whole.

Lots of things factored into the Cavs stretching the Celtics out to seven games like:

-their total team defense
- the clutch play of Joe Smith and Delonte West the whole series
- LeBron's spectacular play
- Ray Allen's horrible post season slump
- Sam Cassell's horrid bench play that was magnified because Doc refused to use Eddie House
The home court advantages that both teams had over each other all of last year
- Cleveland and Boston were fairly well matched up unlike the Lakers and Celtics where the Lakers were the type of team that the Celtics ate up last year.
- Wally Szczerbiak actually outplayed Ray Allen one on one in what has to be the biggest "How the hell did that happen?" matchup of the last ten post seasons.

Admit and reveal this and then see if he can objectively discuss the situation. In a reply of this type you are basically admitting what he wanted you to admit but at the same time you are ripping apart the conclusion he is coming to based on the info he wanted you to acknowledge.

[nickagneta]

And this was his response:

"I won't address the specific points of your arguments until you address the broad one of mine: The 2008 Boston Celtics were a vastly superior team than the Cleveland Cavaliers 1-12, yet the Cavs took them to a very close game 7. Much of this can be attributed to the incredible performance of Lebron James, especially in Game 7. So how does this relate to Pierce 'owning' him?"


Now, what should I come back with???

To be honest, I think you backed yourself into a corner with that "owned" comment.  Pretty strong word and, personally, Pierce didn't own LeBron.

Yeah, you can argue all you want but Donny's right. The Pierce and LeBron matchup is as even as it gets head to head. Maybe saying that LeBron didn't get the best of Pierce would be a bit better than "owned" because "owned" never happened.

[ACF]

Tell him you won't be his friend any more, then make some "your Momma" jokes.

"Your Momma is so stupid, she sits
on the TV and watches the couch"
could be worth trying.

[LarBrd33]

Hey CB,

I told my friend after the game last night that after last years playoffs and the game last night Paul Pierce officially owns Lebron James, which I think is a universally accepted comment to make right now.

His response?

"Pierce owned Lebron? What series did you watch? Lebron took a vastly inferior team to a very close game 7 against Pierce and the C's. The C's won that series because of PJ Brown's put backs in game 7. Lebron played a ****ing incredible game. You are so wrong about that I don't even know where to begin. Putting up a youtube video does not make a good argument."

I don't have time to construct a comeback right now as i'm at work so i'm hoping you guys can help me out! Thanks in advance! TP's for all points used of course!

Your friend is 100% right.  LeBron is a much better player.  Let it go.

Celtics are a far better team, though.  LeBron's teammates are a total joke.

[Edgar]

  I am with redz in this one 


Maybe the only way to get out here is

the good ol

Whos the champ whos the champ.....
or
The captain of the better team is the better player
or
Edgar says Pierce is better

[LarBrd33]

I am with redz in this one 


Maybe the only way to get out here is

the good ol

Whos the champ whos the champ.....
or
The captain of the better team is the better player
or
Edgar says Pierce is better

Nah. A few years ago the Pistons were able to beat Shaq and Kobe.  It wasn't like Billups "owned" Kobe.

We get one of these threads every couple weeks.   It's silly.  Pierce never outplayed LeBron.   The Celtics outplayed the Cavs...  LeBron came 5 points from ending our season with a bunch of horrible teammates.  His second best player was arguably Delonte West.   Unbelievable.