Argument: Pierce vs. Lebron (help!)

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

Hey CB,

I told my friend after the game last night that after last years playoffs and the game last night Paul Pierce officially owns Lebron James, which I think is a universally accepted comment to make right now.

His response?

"Pierce owned Lebron? What series did you watch? Lebron took a vastly inferior team to a very close game 7 against Pierce and the C's. The C's won that series because of PJ Brown's put backs in game 7. Lebron played a Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.ing incredible game. You are so wrong about that I don't even know where to begin. Putting up a youtube video does not make a good argument."

I don't have time to construct a comeback right now as i'm at work so i'm hoping you guys can help me out! Thanks in advance! TP's for all points used of course!

[Roy Hobbs]

Eh...  Pierce didn't "own" Lebron.  Here are the numbers from a post I made some time ago:

I'm not sure that Paul outplayed Lebron.

Point totals:

Lebron: 12, 21, 21, 21, 35, 32, 45
Paul: 4, 19, 14, 13, 29, 16, 41

Assist totals:

Lebron: 9, 6, 8, 13, 5, 6, 6
Paul: 4, 2, 5, 3, 3, 3, 5

Rebound totals:

Lebron: 9, 5, 5, 6, 3, 12, 5
Paul: 5, 6, 3, 5, 7, 5, 4

Shooting totals:

Lebron: 2-for-18, 6-for-24, 5-for-16, 7-for-20, 12-for-25, 9-for-23, 14-for-29
Paul: 2-for-14, 7-for-13, 3-for-8, 6-for-17, 8-for-19, 5-for-15, 13-for-23

Overall, then, you see that Lebron outscored and out-assisted Paul in every game, and outrebounded him in five of them.  Overall, Lebron shot 35.5% for the series, while Paul shot 40.4%.  That's not such a difference to negate the other contributions Lebron made.

I stand by that.  Paul played Lebron to a stand-still, maybe, but he didn't come close to "owning" him.

[nickagneta]

Some points to bring up regarding this argument though I think the two are about as even against each other as it comes:

- Are we talking about one on one against each other or team results against each other. One on one, the players are very evenly matched and if that is your stance then what exactly does the results of the series or who they play with have anything to do with this argument. It doesn't so most of your friend's retort is meaningless.

- Even the most ardent Cavs fans that I know will admit that LeBron plays by one set of rules and the rest of the NBA plays by another. LeBron, one on one against Pierce always gets to play more physical and will always go to the line more because the refs call fouls on him and by him more in his favor than any other player in the league. If your friend can't admit to this then stop the argument right there because you aren't dealing with a person with any objectiveity whatsoever and you will be wasting your breath.

- LeBron doesn't play defense against Pierce better than Pierce plays defense against LeBron. Both players are probably, along with Ron Artest, the only really good "power" 3's in the league. Out of the three players, LeBron is the worst of the three defensively against each other. On the other hand, LeBron is a handful and a half for Pierce but Pierce might just be a handful and three quarters for LeBron because he is such a better outside shooter and better FT shooter.

- LeBron is slowly but surely transforming his game into that of a PF. As he does it is going to become harder and harder for him to handle Pierce as Pierce will simply do what he did last night and out-quck him and leave LeBron holding his jock. It happened on three seperate occasions last night and leBron looked bad. If LeBron decides to get any bigger it won't be long before Mike Brown has someone else guarding Pierce. Maybe not this year but possibly next year and beyond.

Hope that helps and I wonder what your buddy will say to these points.

[JR Giddens]

One on One I think Lebron would beat Pierce. However even tho Lebron is only 23 I think he already hit his prime especially athletically. I don't see him becominng a  consistent outside shooter or free throw shooter. Lebron also doesn't react very quick on defense. Lebron shot 35-36% in that 7 game series. He just isn't going to be an elite closer.

[Schupac]

Some points to bring up regarding this argument though I think the two are about as even against each other as it comes:

- Are we talking about one on one against each other or team results against each other. One on one, the players are very evenly matched and if that is your stance then what exactly does the results of the series or who they play with have anything to do with this argument. It doesn't so most of your friend's retort is meaningless.

- Even the most ardent Cavs fans that I know will admit that LeBron plays by one set of rules and the rest of the NBA plays by another. LeBron, one on one against Pierce always gets to play more physical and will always go to the line more because the refs call fouls on him and by him more in his favor than any other player in the league. If your friend can't admit to this then stop the argument right there because you aren't dealing with a person with any objectiveity whatsoever and you will be wasting your breath.

- LeBron doesn't play defense against Pierce better than Pierce plays defense against LeBron. Both players are probably, along with Ron Artest, the only really good "power" 3's in the league. Out of the three players, LeBron is the worst of the three defensively against each other. On the other hand, LeBron is a handful and a half for Pierce but Pierce might just be a handful and three quarters for LeBron because he is such a better outside shooter and better FT shooter.

- LeBron is slowly but surely transforming his game into that of a PF. As he does it is going to become harder and harder for him to handle Pierce as Pierce will simply do what he did last night and out-quck him and leave LeBron holding his jock. It happened on three seperate occasions last night and leBron looked bad. If LeBron decides to get any bigger it won't be long before Mike Brown has someone else guarding Pierce. Maybe not this year but possibly next year and beyond.

Hope that helps and I wonder what your buddy will say to these points.

Every cavs I fan I know (I live in Ohio) is in absolute denial that KING James is capable of breaking a rule, let alone not being called for one.  Then again, most of the "Cavs fans" I meet here want to talk trash about our Beloved Boys in Green so I put them all to the same test - I just ask who Mark Price is.

So far two people have been able to answer, out of maybe 15-20.

In other words, they aren't real fans just Hype-Zombies.

[nickagneta]

Some points to bring up regarding this argument though I think the two are about as even against each other as it comes:

- Are we talking about one on one against each other or team results against each other. One on one, the players are very evenly matched and if that is your stance then what exactly does the results of the series or who they play with have anything to do with this argument. It doesn't so most of your friend's retort is meaningless.

- Even the most ardent Cavs fans that I know will admit that LeBron plays by one set of rules and the rest of the NBA plays by another. LeBron, one on one against Pierce always gets to play more physical and will always go to the line more because the refs call fouls on him and by him more in his favor than any other player in the league. If your friend can't admit to this then stop the argument right there because you aren't dealing with a person with any objectiveity whatsoever and you will be wasting your breath.

- LeBron doesn't play defense against Pierce better than Pierce plays defense against LeBron. Both players are probably, along with Ron Artest, the only really good "power" 3's in the league. Out of the three players, LeBron is the worst of the three defensively against each other. On the other hand, LeBron is a handful and a half for Pierce but Pierce might just be a handful and three quarters for LeBron because he is such a better outside shooter and better FT shooter.

- LeBron is slowly but surely transforming his game into that of a PF. As he does it is going to become harder and harder for him to handle Pierce as Pierce will simply do what he did last night and out-quck him and leave LeBron holding his jock. It happened on three seperate occasions last night and leBron looked bad. If LeBron decides to get any bigger it won't be long before Mike Brown has someone else guarding Pierce. Maybe not this year but possibly next year and beyond.

Hope that helps and I wonder what your buddy will say to these points.

Every cavs I fan I know (I live in Ohio) is in absolute denial that KING James is capable of breaking a rule, let alone not being called for one.  Then again, most of the "Cavs fans" I meet here want to talk trash about our Beloved Boys in Green so I put them all to the same test - I just ask who Mark Price is.

So far two people have been able to answer, out of maybe 15-20.

In other words, they aren't real fans just Hype-Zombies.

I went to Case Western in the mid eighties and actually saw a bunch of Mark Price Cavalier basketball in the later 80's. I loved going to the Cavs games when Price, Daugherty, Harper and Nance were all there and in their primes. Harper especially before ripping apart his knee? Ankle? Can't remember which but that kid could sky when young and Nance was a freak too. Price's calmness, passing ability and sweet outside shot was a perfect fit for that team.

Price was also a helluva college player at GT.

[guava_wrench]

Some points to bring up regarding this argument though I think the two are about as even against each other as it comes:

- Are we talking about one on one against each other or team results against each other. One on one, the players are very evenly matched and if that is your stance then what exactly does the results of the series or who they play with have anything to do with this argument. It doesn't so most of your friend's retort is meaningless.

- Even the most ardent Cavs fans that I know will admit that LeBron plays by one set of rules and the rest of the NBA plays by another. LeBron, one on one against Pierce always gets to play more physical and will always go to the line more because the refs call fouls on him and by him more in his favor than any other player in the league. If your friend can't admit to this then stop the argument right there because you aren't dealing with a person with any objectiveity whatsoever and you will be wasting your breath.

- LeBron doesn't play defense against Pierce better than Pierce plays defense against LeBron. Both players are probably, along with Ron Artest, the only really good "power" 3's in the league. Out of the three players, LeBron is the worst of the three defensively against each other. On the other hand, LeBron is a handful and a half for Pierce but Pierce might just be a handful and three quarters for LeBron because he is such a better outside shooter and better FT shooter.

- LeBron is slowly but surely transforming his game into that of a PF. As he does it is going to become harder and harder for him to handle Pierce as Pierce will simply do what he did last night and out-quck him and leave LeBron holding his jock. It happened on three seperate occasions last night and leBron looked bad. If LeBron decides to get any bigger it won't be long before Mike Brown has someone else guarding Pierce. Maybe not this year but possibly next year and beyond.

Hope that helps and I wonder what your buddy will say to these points.

Every cavs I fan I know (I live in Ohio) is in absolute denial that KING James is capable of breaking a rule, let alone not being called for one.  Then again, most of the "Cavs fans" I meet here want to talk trash about our Beloved Boys in Green so I put them all to the same test - I just ask who Mark Price is.

So far two people have been able to answer, out of maybe 15-20.

In other words, they aren't real fans just Hype-Zombies.

Personally, I don't agree that there are different rules for Lebron. He is just hard to defend due to his strength and speed combination. Even Tommy has acknowledge bad calls the Celtics have gotten against Lebron in the past.

Pierce's lighter build seemed to be difficult for Lebron to stay in front of. Pierce looked much quicker than last season and lebron is pretty heavy.

[Schupac]

Some points to bring up regarding this argument though I think the two are about as even against each other as it comes:

- Are we talking about one on one against each other or team results against each other. One on one, the players are very evenly matched and if that is your stance then what exactly does the results of the series or who they play with have anything to do with this argument. It doesn't so most of your friend's retort is meaningless.

- Even the most ardent Cavs fans that I know will admit that LeBron plays by one set of rules and the rest of the NBA plays by another. LeBron, one on one against Pierce always gets to play more physical and will always go to the line more because the refs call fouls on him and by him more in his favor than any other player in the league. If your friend can't admit to this then stop the argument right there because you aren't dealing with a person with any objectiveity whatsoever and you will be wasting your breath.

- LeBron doesn't play defense against Pierce better than Pierce plays defense against LeBron. Both players are probably, along with Ron Artest, the only really good "power" 3's in the league. Out of the three players, LeBron is the worst of the three defensively against each other. On the other hand, LeBron is a handful and a half for Pierce but Pierce might just be a handful and three quarters for LeBron because he is such a better outside shooter and better FT shooter.

- LeBron is slowly but surely transforming his game into that of a PF. As he does it is going to become harder and harder for him to handle Pierce as Pierce will simply do what he did last night and out-quck him and leave LeBron holding his jock. It happened on three seperate occasions last night and leBron looked bad. If LeBron decides to get any bigger it won't be long before Mike Brown has someone else guarding Pierce. Maybe not this year but possibly next year and beyond.

Hope that helps and I wonder what your buddy will say to these points.

Every cavs I fan I know (I live in Ohio) is in absolute denial that KING James is capable of breaking a rule, let alone not being called for one.  Then again, most of the "Cavs fans" I meet here want to talk trash about our Beloved Boys in Green so I put them all to the same test - I just ask who Mark Price is.

So far two people have been able to answer, out of maybe 15-20.

In other words, they aren't real fans just Hype-Zombies.

I went to Case Western in the mid eighties and actually saw a bunch of Mark Price Cavalier basketball in the later 80's. I loved going to the Cavs games when Price, Daugherty, Harper and Nance were all there and in their primes. Harper especially before ripping apart his knee? Ankle? Can't remember which but that kid could sky when young and Nance was a freak too. Price's calmness, passing ability and sweet outside shot was a perfect fit for that team.

Price was also a helluva college player at GT.

Mark Price was actually way before my time, but considering I'm not from Ohio and I know who he is, I consider it a good litmus test of real fandom.


Guava - I'll respectfully disagree with you so we don't end up sidetracking this thread :-)

[TrueGreen]

LeBron looked like his feet were stuck in cement the other night as Pierce continually outplayed him at both ends of the court. It's not really about PP vs LB. It's about the ring that PP now wears and about the clean new banner hanging atop TD Banknorth Garden.

[CelticsWhat35]

I've said before, as long as the Celtics continue to be better than the Cavs, I really don't care if LeBron is better than Pierce.  I'll take the team over the individual any day.

[Sweet17]

I wouldn't say PP "owns" him but PP matches up with him just fine - much the way he does with Kobe. And despite some of our own posters boasting these players great superiority to Paul over and over again - you have to at some point admit that PP despite not getting the ESPN love - isn't far off from those two guys.

That opening night is a prime example - and don't tell me it was KG and Ray Allen that made PP great. I am not buying it. PP has proven if you don't give him guys that SUCK he can do great things.

You make to an ECF with only Antione Walker and Kenny Anderson.. that's not to different from Lebron making the finals with the players he had.. At this point in time I think Lebron is clearly the more physically talented player. But PP is the smarter more well rounded baller. It's an interesting matchup..

Sooner or later PP will fall off the map - and Lebron will get better. But right now PP can play guys really well. It's hard to argue with Paul's boasting when again and again he proves it only the court.

Lebron has a good ten years of domination left though. So we should try to remember the good times while they last. Paul has about 3 years, IMHO.

Pete

[bostonfan23]

I would say Pierce gives LeBron more fits than anyone else in the league.

[Redz]

Tell him you won't be his friend any more, then make some "your Momma" jokes.  It's not like he's suddenly going to love PP more anyhow.

His loss.

[celticmaestro]

Pierce didn't own LeBron, he played an awesome game but an average series. The fact is, LeBron is a better player than Pierce, but Pierce is an NBA Champion, that should always be your response.

[guava_wrench]

Some points to bring up regarding this argument though I think the two are about as even against each other as it comes:

- Are we talking about one on one against each other or team results against each other. One on one, the players are very evenly matched and if that is your stance then what exactly does the results of the series or who they play with have anything to do with this argument. It doesn't so most of your friend's retort is meaningless.

- Even the most ardent Cavs fans that I know will admit that LeBron plays by one set of rules and the rest of the NBA plays by another. LeBron, one on one against Pierce always gets to play more physical and will always go to the line more because the refs call fouls on him and by him more in his favor than any other player in the league. If your friend can't admit to this then stop the argument right there because you aren't dealing with a person with any objectiveity whatsoever and you will be wasting your breath.

- LeBron doesn't play defense against Pierce better than Pierce plays defense against LeBron. Both players are probably, along with Ron Artest, the only really good "power" 3's in the league. Out of the three players, LeBron is the worst of the three defensively against each other. On the other hand, LeBron is a handful and a half for Pierce but Pierce might just be a handful and three quarters for LeBron because he is such a better outside shooter and better FT shooter.

- LeBron is slowly but surely transforming his game into that of a PF. As he does it is going to become harder and harder for him to handle Pierce as Pierce will simply do what he did last night and out-quck him and leave LeBron holding his jock. It happened on three seperate occasions last night and leBron looked bad. If LeBron decides to get any bigger it won't be long before Mike Brown has someone else guarding Pierce. Maybe not this year but possibly next year and beyond.

Hope that helps and I wonder what your buddy will say to these points.

Every cavs I fan I know (I live in Ohio) is in absolute denial that KING James is capable of breaking a rule, let alone not being called for one.  Then again, most of the "Cavs fans" I meet here want to talk trash about our Beloved Boys in Green so I put them all to the same test - I just ask who Mark Price is.

So far two people have been able to answer, out of maybe 15-20.

In other words, they aren't real fans just Hype-Zombies.

I went to Case Western in the mid eighties and actually saw a bunch of Mark Price Cavalier basketball in the later 80's. I loved going to the Cavs games when Price, Daugherty, Harper and Nance were all there and in their primes. Harper especially before ripping apart his knee? Ankle? Can't remember which but that kid could sky when young and Nance was a freak too. Price's calmness, passing ability and sweet outside shot was a perfect fit for that team.

Price was also a helluva college player at GT.

The first time I watched the NCAA tournament I followed that GT team. Became a Price fan after that.

Harper could fly back then. He was fast and had ups. His game changed so much as he aged. I remember watching him throw down in a pre-season DOUBLEHEADER (imagine that) at MSG when I was in HS.