Get the ball to Ray Allen and let him run the offense (with the bench)

[Sweet17]

Wow!!!! Yeah, I'm going no further here. I'll agree to disagree. "Mini Paul Pierce", "Doc Rivers....disagree(s)", he opens "up easy DUNKS and J's for the team" and "respectable facilitator" just convinced me this conversation just won't be productive.

Dude what player out of that "second unit" is better at those skills then TA? And don't say Ray Allen. Ray has SOME ability to set people up - but at his age he is more of a catch and shoot guy who excels without the ball.

TA is doing the best for the team.

Pete

[wdleehi]

Wow!!!! Yeah, I'm going no further here. I'll agree to disagree. "Mini Paul Pierce", "Doc Rivers....disagree(s)", he opens "up easy DUNKS and J's for the team" and "respectable facilitator" just convinced me this conversation just won't be productive.

Dude what player out of that "second unit" is better at those skills then TA? And don't say Ray Allen. Ray has SOME ability to set people up - but at his age he is more of a catch and shoot guy who excels without the ball.

TA is doing the best for the team.

Pete

 

Ray has more ability to create for himself and others. 

[Sweet17]

Ray has more ability to create for himself and others.

The Ray Allen of 10 years ago - sure. The Ray Allen of last year had a drawn foul percentage of 6.4% The gimpy version of Tony Allen had a drawn foul percentage of 17.0%. Hmm who do you think slashes better? What does slashing do to a defense?

Pete

 

[crownsy]

Ray has more ability to create for himself and others.

The Ray Allen of 10 years ago - sure. The Ray Allen of last year had a drawn foul percentage of 6.4% The gimpy version of Tony Allen had a drawn foul percentage of 17.0%. Hmm who do you think slashes better? What does slashing do to a defense?

Pete

 

that ray allen was also called on to play a vastly diffrent role in seattle.

go check the percentages from the finals, where he drove more.

[lewis35]

tp crownsy I completely agree

[wdleehi]

Ray has more ability to create for himself and others.

The Ray Allen of 10 years ago - sure. The Ray Allen of last year had a drawn foul percentage of 6.4% The gimpy version of Tony Allen had a drawn foul percentage of 17.0%. Hmm who do you think slashes better? What does slashing do to a defense?

Pete

 

That's the problem.  Ray is settling for jumpshots when he has the ability to to attack more.


More to the point, who is more likely to turn the ball over and who is more likely to find an open teammate?




p.s. TA's slashing to often leads to the other teams defense creating a TO.

[Sweet17]

 

go check the percentages from the finals, where he drove more.

That's cause Sasha was all up in his grill. It's common sense for a player like Ray to slash in that situation. If you think that makes him a better slasher your off your rocker. I'd say TA's handle is a bit tigher then Ray's this year as well. Yes TA turns the ball over a ton but he also tries to play PG. Ray plays more to his strengths and does not try to do this.

Let's face it in the second unit lineup there are three ball handlers - who are potential shot creators. House rarely creates his own shot (I wouldn't say NEVER) but its rare. Ray Allen is better at it - but still not on the Paul Pierce/Kobe level. TA is the best shot creator of that unit.

Someone has to do the dirty work in that unit. TA might not be the perfect fit but he can do the job I think.

 

[wdleehi]

go check the percentages from the finals, where he drove more.

That's cause Sasha was all up in his grill. It's common sense for a player like Ray to slash in that situation. If you think that makes him a better slasher your off your rocker. I'd say TA's handle is a bit tigher then Ray's this year as well. Yes TA turns the ball over a ton but he also tries to play PG. Ray plays more to his strengths and does not try to do this.

Let's face it in the second unit lineup there are three ball handlers - who are potential shot creators. House rarely creates his own shot (I wouldn't say NEVER) but its rare. Ray Allen is better at it - but still not on the Paul Pierce/Kobe level. TA is the best shot creator of that unit.

Someone has to do the dirty work in that unit. TA might not be the perfect fit but he can do the job I think.

 

Can you give examples of TA creating shots for others when he is out there?

I see that he can get the ball thrown at the hoop on his own, but is very streaky in terms of effectiveness. 

But I can't remember him creating easy shots for his teammates.

[papa shuttlesworth]

Also, creating your own shot, slashing, and setting up teammates are all three very different things.  Being able to do all of them, like a Pierce or Kobe, is obviously the best, but you can do one extremely well without necessarily doing the others.

For example, Dirk can create shots whenever he wants, but is not a good slasher.  You don't have to drive into the lane to create a shot.

Driving and dishing is only one way to set up a teammate.  Ray Allen can run a pick and roll MUCH better than Tony Allen, who has probably only done that three times ever.

I think the biggest problem is Ray is too passive with the 2nd unit because Doc hasn't come up with a play for him other than a baseline screen for 3 pointer.

[wdleehi]

Also, creating your own shot, slashing, and setting up teammates are all three very different things.  Being able to do all of them, like a Pierce or Kobe, is obviously the best, but you can do one extremely well without necessarily doing the others.

For example, Dirk can create shots whenever he wants, but is not a good slasher.  You don't have to drive into the lane to create a shot.

Driving and dishing is only one way to set up a teammate.  Ray Allen can run a pick and roll MUCH better than Tony Allen, who has probably only done that three times ever.

I think the biggest problem is Ray is too passive with the 2nd unit because Doc hasn't come up with a play for him other than a baseline screen for 3 pointer.

Night one, Wally made the bench's eyes go wide and decide to just attack him.  Not a great plan unless he was guarding Pierce, Ray or one of the PFs.

[EJPLAYA]

The only time that TA ever drives and dishes the ball is when it is an accident. He has no objective other than to lower his head and go to the rim. I am not saying that can't be valuable, but don't make it sound like TA is this drive and dish player. He isn't. The few times he tries he typically turns it over. Just go hard to the rim and get fouled TA. That's enough...

[guava_wrench]

The only time that TA ever drives and dishes the ball is when it is an accident. He has no objective other than to lower his head and go to the rim. I am not saying that can't be valuable, but don't make it sound like TA is this drive and dish player. He isn't. The few times he tries he typically turns it over. Just go hard to the rim and get fouled TA. That's enough...

You need to watch the games closer. TA regularly wraps passes around defenders to Powe and BBD down low for easy scores. It is not an accident. He does it way too often to not give him credit.

He is not a distributer. To say his is would be a mischaracterization. But your 'accident' comment is equally out of touch with reality. You don't have to go Fox News on us. We can discuss topics without being extremists.

[guava_wrench]

Why do people want to wear out the starters when the bench is in the game? Take advantage of the fresh legs while you can.

[EJPLAYA]

The only time that TA ever drives and dishes the ball is when it is an accident. He has no objective other than to lower his head and go to the rim. I am not saying that can't be valuable, but don't make it sound like TA is this drive and dish player. He isn't. The few times he tries he typically turns it over. Just go hard to the rim and get fouled TA. That's enough...

You need to watch the games closer. TA regularly wraps passes around defenders to Powe and BBD down low for easy scores. It is not an accident. He does it way too often to not give him credit.

He is not a distributer. To say his is would be a mischaracterization. But your 'accident' comment is equally out of touch with reality. You don't have to go Fox News on us. We can discuss topics without being extremists.

I think you might want to watch the game closer yourself my friend, because TA averaged only 1 assist a game last year and 1.3 his entire career. If the guy was "regularly" wrapping passes around his defender then he would have more than 1 assist a game. Considering he had to have passed a few passes around the perimeter that guys hit jumpers on, then the numbers shrink even smaller.

I don't know where your "Fox News" crap comes from, but if your idea of enforcing a point is making things up and generalizing, then maybe you should stop going CNN on us...

I have watched every minute of TA's career and I can guarantee you one thing. The guy has more turnovers than assists, so making him out to be this great drive and dish guy is nonsense. Everyone that watches him play, other than maybe his mother, knows that he is out of control going to the rim and barrels into his defender. If they are out of position like against the Cavs the other night, he has the athleticism to get an "and 1". Otherwise he is committing an offensive charge or losing the ball more often than not. Occasionally the guy passes the ball. That's about as "liberal" with it that you can back up...

[Sweet17]

I think you might want to watch the game closer yourself my friend, because TA averaged only 1 assist a game last year and 1.3 his entire career. If the guy was "regularly" wrapping passes around his defender then he would have more than 1 assist a game. Considering he had to have passed a few passes around the perimeter that guys hit jumpers on, then the numbers shrink even smaller.

If your going to play the 'assist' game at least normalize for minutes played. <g> Anyway I think you have to be either quite blind or incredibly biased not to see Tony Allen setting up his teamates. There really is very little room for argument. It's plain as day he sets up his teamates. Even Jeff Van Gundy and company were talking about it tonight.

I don't think the fact that Big Baby can't finish as well as your average 6'1" PG should be held against TA... That's the problem with putting too much faith in assist numbers. I would also add that depending on WHO TA is playing with he may not be put into the postition of being a play maker.

When PP or Rondo is on the court - his playmaking is not needed. But he has been quite succesful playing the PG spot on occasion - like he did last year vs. the Lakers.