Get the ball to Ray Allen and let him run the offense (with the bench)

[nickagneta]

I liked the Ray from Seattle where he drove a bunch to put the defender on his heals which opened space for his outside shot. As an off the ball player he is constantly having someone jumping in his face to block the shot. Also, he's a pretty darn good player taking the ball to the hoop and can finish pretty good. Last year he obviously lost some elevation due to his ankles but I expect better height on his finishes this year.

[EJPLAYA]

Not sure I want Ray driving to the basket against another teams "second lineup". They would be much more likely to play physical and put him on his butt. We don't need him getting an ankle injury and missing half a season. Sure you want him to be aggressive when appropriate, but I'd rather having the guy take clutch jumpers when it counts than sitting in rehab. Let TA do the hard driving.

[Sweet17]

TA is going to run the offensive in the second unit. He has more the alpha dog kind of personality you need to do that. He gets gruff for it from SOME posters but the end results from his aggressiveness are often very good.

At this point in time TA is a better drive and dish guy then RA. RA just has to drift to open spots on the floor. TA will hit him and all will be good with the Cs.

Pete

[moiso]

Ray is a shooter/scorer and I would like to see him play less minutes and get more shots up per minute.  I really wouldn't mind Ray playing 25 minutes per game and taking more shots per minute.  He really isn't above average in any other facet of the game.  Does he really have to play 41 minutes just to space the floor?

[sully00]

Well yes Ray has to play 41 mins to space the floor because he and Pierce are the only guys on the team that need to be guarded at the 3 pt line.  The only way around this is to give some mins to Pruitt.

That is the flaw in the whole Eddie as a pg and the Eddie, Tony, Ray line up.  Eddie is not a good 3pt shooter pulling up off the dribble and he doesn't do a great job of finding others open looks or handling the ball in traffic.  Tony can get his own shot but gets in trouble when he starts trying to create shots and find the open man and is an iffy spot up shooter even if left wide open.  Ray is in a simliar situation as Tony creating but much like Eddie he is way better off the ball catching and shooting.

I would rather just see some mins go to Pruitt and see what we have there but failing that if he is going to use House and Allen together I think that Pierce has to be on the floor with them to be the primary distributor.  The other three's strengths and weaknesses are too simliar and we end up with Tony as the defacto pg which would be fine if he can find Ray or Eddie on the wing but more often it his him going head down to the goal.

[nickagneta]

TA is going to run the offensive in the second unit. He has more the alpha dog kind of personality you need to do that. He gets gruff for it from SOME posters but the end results from his aggressiveness are often very good.

At this point in time TA is a better drive and dish guy then RA. RA just has to drift to open spots on the floor. TA will hit him and all will be good with the Cs.

Pete

Tell me you seriously are not suggesting that Tony Allen is either a better passer, or a better passer when going to the hoop than Ray Allen??

Once Tony decides he is driving there is no such thing as a drive and dish. Heck he's fairly inept at passing the ball properly around the perimeter never mind making a split second decision to see the floor properly and find the open man if the lane isn't open or the good shot isn't there for him.

Didn't we do the Tony Allen running the second unit thing last year and it is an abject disaster? He has no point guard skills. None. He doesn't have the handle, the vision, the mind, or the passing skills to run an offense. Tony is great at getting himself into a position to receive the rock and go towards the basket while finishing or drawing contact. That's about it.

Ray is much more adept at being able to run a second team offense if House and Pruitt aren't going to be doing it. His tools are much better suited.

[crownsy]

TA is going to run the offensive in the second unit. He has more the alpha dog kind of personality you need to do that. He gets gruff for it from SOME posters but the end results from his aggressiveness are often very good.

At this point in time TA is a better drive and dish guy then RA. RA just has to drift to open spots on the floor. TA will hit him and all will be good with the Cs.

Pete

Tell me you seriously are not suggesting that Tony Allen is either a better passer, or a better passer when going to the hoop than Ray Allen??

Once Tony decides he is driving there is no such thing as a drive and dish. Heck he's fairly inept at passing the ball properly around the perimeter never mind making a split second decision to see the floor properly and find the open man if the lane isn't open or the good shot isn't there for him.

Didn't we do the Tony Allen running the second unit thing last year and it is an abject disaster? He has no point guard skills. None. He doesn't have the handle, the vision, the mind, or the passing skills to run an offense. Tony is great at getting himself into a position to receive the rock and go towards the basket while finishing or drawing contact. That's about it.

Ray is much more adept at being able to run a second team offense if House and Pruitt aren't going to be doing it. His tools are much better suited.

as a TA skeptic, i agree with most of your post nick, but some issues.

1) even to a skeptic like me, TA is VASTLY more confident going to the rim, and its showing in his trips to the line and finshes. Last year he would go half-heatedly, this year he trusts the knee.

2) to be fair to TA, in the preseason ( i know, just preseason, but to be fair we've seen only one regular season game) he was actually doing a pretty good job of driving and dishing to house.

I'm still very skeptical of TA, but im not willing to lump him and last year's TA together yet.

[guava_wrench]

No need to force Ray to score every day. Ray had plenty of good looks and was off. How many possessions do we have to sacrifice? We have enough players who can contribute on offense that we don't have to force the issue. The time to force the ball to a player is when they are hot, unless you are a team with only one legitimate scorer.

I also want to see TA get on track. It is more important that TA gets comfortable with the second team than Ray, since Ray will spend most of his court time with the starters.

Powe should also get the ball on every possession where Wally is defending him in the post.

The bizarre flip side to the idea that we need to get shots for Ray when he is off is this -- what do we do when his shooting is on? Presumably, we would go back to him when he is hot. You end up with a situation where we have Ray taking all the shots with the bench players. I don't get the point of that.

[wdleehi]

No need to force Ray to score every day. Ray had plenty of good looks and was off. How many possessions do we have to sacrifice? We have enough players who can contribute on offense that we don't have to force the issue. The time to force the ball to a player is when they are hot, unless you are a team with only one legitimate scorer.

I also want to see TA get on track. It is more important that TA gets comfortable with the second team than Ray, since Ray will spend most of his court time with the starters.

Powe should also get the ball on every possession where Wally is defending him in the post.

The bizarre flip side to the idea that we need to get shots for Ray when he is off is this -- what do we do when his shooting is on? Presumably, we would go back to him when he is hot. You end up with a situation where we have Ray taking all the shots with the bench players. I don't get the point of that.

It is not just about getting shots for Ray.  It is about trying to run the offense at it's most effectiveness.  And putting the ball in Ray's hands when Pierce, KG and Rondo are on the bench would make the Celtics offense the most effective it can be. 


Ray can do more then just catch and shoot. 

[Sweet17]

Tell me you seriously are not suggesting that Tony Allen is either a better passer, or a better passer when going to the hoop than Ray Allen??

Once Tony decides he is driving there is no such thing as a drive and dish. Heck he's fairly inept at passing the ball properly around the perimeter never mind making a split second decision to see the floor properly and find the open man if the lane isn't open or the good shot isn't there for him.

TA doesn't need to drop pinpoint dimes in traffic. What's important is that TA draws a ton of attention from the defense off his drives - opening up easy DUNKS and J's for the team.

TA plays the role of a mini Paul Pierce out there. This is the same garbage we heard about PP setting up the offense.. Of course once he did it in the finals he shut those people up.

Didn't we do the Tony Allen running the second unit thing last year and it is an abject disaster? He has no point guard skills. None. He doesn't have the handle, the vision, the mind, or the passing skills to run an offense. Tony is great at getting himself into a position to receive the rock and go towards the basket while finishing or drawing contact. That's about it.

Doc Rivers and company disagree. TA is a very respectable facilitator in the PP/Rick Davis mode. He can absolutely open up shots for his teamates. Right now he is better then Ray Allen at that. Again it has little to do with his passing ability and everything to do with his ability to drive and finish. If teams respect his ability to finish with his fearless slashing - guys will really benefit. Remember how Danny talked about how well TA did at PG statistically speaking? This is why.

I think some posters have forgotten just how good TA can be. TA is a really good basketball player when he is "on." The good TA is a dynamic player out there. Expunge those memories of the gimpy confidence lacking TA out of your ahead.

I think TA is going to be a STEAL for this team. TA is right on the money when he talks about how he is straight up better player then Posey. When healthy he IS. Like I said he is going to thrive in his role and help our team.

PP goes out - bring in TA. Ricky Davis would play the same role if he was still here (and hadn't slipped)..

Pete

[nickagneta]

Tell me you seriously are not suggesting that Tony Allen is either a better passer, or a better passer when going to the hoop than Ray Allen??

Once Tony decides he is driving there is no such thing as a drive and dish. Heck he's fairly inept at passing the ball properly around the perimeter never mind making a split second decision to see the floor properly and find the open man if the lane isn't open or the good shot isn't there for him.

TA doesn't need to drop pinpoint dimes in traffic. What's important is that TA draws a ton of attention from the defense off his drives - opening up easy DUNKS and J's for the team.

TA plays the role of a mini Paul Pierce out there. This is the same garbage we heard about PP setting up the offense.. Of course once he did it in the finals he shut those people up.

Didn't we do the Tony Allen running the second unit thing last year and it is an abject disaster? He has no point guard skills. None. He doesn't have the handle, the vision, the mind, or the passing skills to run an offense. Tony is great at getting himself into a position to receive the rock and go towards the basket while finishing or drawing contact. That's about it.

Doc Rivers and company disagree. TA is a very respectable facilitator in the PP/Rick Davis mode. He can absolutely open up shots for his teamates. Right now he is better then Ray Allen at that. Again it has little to do with his passing ability and everything to do with his ability to drive and finish. If teams respect his ability to finish with his fearless slashing - guys will really benefit. Remember how Danny talked about how well TA did at PG statistically speaking? This is why.

I think some posters have forgotten just how good TA can be. TA is a really good basketball player when he is "on." The good TA is a dynamic player out there. Expunge those memories of the gimpy confidence lacking TA out of your ahead.

I think TA is going to be a STEAL for this team. TA is right on the money when he talks about how he is straight up better player then Posey. When healthy he IS. Like I said he is going to thrive in his role and help our team.

PP goes out - bring in TA. Ricky Davis would play the same role if he was still here (and hadn't slipped)..

Pete

Wow!!!! Yeah, I'm going no further here. I'll agree to disagree. "Mini Paul Pierce", "Doc Rivers....disagree(s)", he opens "up easy DUNKS and J's for the team" and "respectable facilitator" just convinced me this conversation just won't be productive.

[EJPLAYA]

This thread is nuts! Here's a couple examples:

House isn't a good pull up shooter from 3
TA sets up dunks and J's with his drive
Since PP adjusted and was able to dish off the drive then TA obviously can...

Unbelievable guys. Have you really ever watched these guys play?!

[wdleehi]

This thread is nuts! Here's a couple examples:

House isn't a good pull up shooter from 3
TA sets up dunks and J's with his drive
Since PP adjusted and was able to dish off the drive then TA obviously can...

Unbelievable guys. Have you really ever watched these guys play?!

House isn't good at creating his own outside shot.  He is excellent at catching and shooting.

[guava_wrench]

This thread is nuts! Here's a couple examples:

House isn't a good pull up shooter from 3
TA sets up dunks and J's with his drive
Since PP adjusted and was able to dish off the drive then TA obviously can...

Unbelievable guys. Have you really ever watched these guys play?!

House isn't good at creating his own outside shot.  He is excellent at catching and shooting.

House also hits a lot of pullups where he dribbles twice. Still, he is better when he just shoots off the catch.

TA does set up a lot of dunks on penetration when he wraps passes around defenders to Powe and BBD. I'm not impressed with his passes to the post or in most other scenarios, but he gets it to the big guys for easy shots regularly on penetration.

[jdpapa3]

Because Ray Allen actually sucks at passing. I love the guy, but he is horrible at passing. It's ok because he's great at every other offensive skill. He is an underrated rebounder for his size, in terms of height and width.

Tony is a good passer when he drives. He doesn't look great doing it all the time, but he gets it done.