Walker's court time vanishes with Griz

[PSquared]

Walker is almost at the point of Scal...where the fans are waiting to cheer and go nuts when Scal makes a shot....only for Walker, they just want to see him make a shimmy.

You can't compare a guy with a career like Scal's to a 3 time all star. He had a great career in Boston, then got a ring in Miami and now is struggling to fit in a team due to both his contract and the rebuilding teams he's been to.

He is on the downside of his career but he's still more valuable than Scal

First off, forgive me because I am only arguing semantics. Scal will be more valuable to the Celtics than Walker will be to the Grizzlies because he's probably more likely to see playing time and hence guive his team a contribution. Walker might end up being more valuable because of his contract though and not because of his play. The Grizzlies may either trade him at the deadline for picks and flotsam or let him expire to get some very nice cap relief. That's valuable.

But Walker is still a better player than Scal right now but maybe not by a whole lot. Toine can definitely score more but he could probably just as easily give up more points.

How many layups has Scal given up in his career?   Both players are sieves on the Defensive-end but Walker has a slight edge 'cause he's played some defense in the past whereas Scal doesn't really know where to find the "D" he lost in the "Efense".   


But in all seriousness, I wonder where Toine will end up.....There's only so many teams that are in the "youth-movement/rebuilding" situation...It's sad to see how his career is spiraling down like this.  Despite all the vitriol he's received courtesy of us in the past, he deserves to at least continue to play Basketball if he can still go.   This past season and now this season will be like Toine retired(forcefully)....He may be an OLD 32-years but he's still JUST 32-years-old.  Maybe all this Non-Playing gives back some life in those crickety-knees of his.....Who knows?

I'm rooting for him to find somewhere in the NBA to play regularly....

[greg683x]

He may be an OLD 32-years but he's still JUST 32-years-old.  Maybe all this Non-Playing gives back some life in those crickety-knees of his.....Who knows?

He might be in a better position if he'd stay in shape.

I'll always have a special place for Antoine b/c I followed him for so long, but seriously, the guy created all this stuff himself.  How many times have we read about management complaining about him being out of shape??  It happened here, it happened in Maimi, and now in Memphis.  Yeah hes only 32 years old, and yes for most NBA stars you can still give plenty of production to a competitve NBA team, but MOST of those 32 year old stars keep themselves in great shape throughout their career, example Ray Allen.  Someone mentioned about if he'd play like he did when he came back here, well thats the problem, he plays when he feels like it, other wise its his game.

Honestly, I love the guy, but people around the NBA look at him like a bonehead.  Hes a guy that could be a great PF but decided to FORCE the 3 pointer as being his signature shot.  When I say force, I mean, youre not good at it so since you cant be known for it by shooting it well, you just decide to shoot SO MANY threes that you'll still lead the NBA in makes even though you only shoot 28%.  The only time hes ever been a great rebounder was when he wanted to stick it to Ainge when he was in Dallas, and when he came back here.

If your a GM, and you have a playoff team, or a borderline playoff team and need a player to get you over the hump, are you going to pick up the 32 year old PF that cant stay in shape, plays so so defense, and will pull up for a 3 pointer on a 3-1 fast break.

This is all stuff I would think and not say when he was a Celtic because I never like to bash players on our team, unless Im talking to other Celtic fans, and I NEVER would to people who arent celtic fans, in fact I defended Antoine many times when he was here.  But c'mon, Im not suprised to see his career wind up like this at all.

[xmuscularghandix]

the best situation is noone wanting walker in a trade, then the grizzles not taking his option. this would allow him to reach free agency at the end of this year and sign with the C's @ the Vet minimum next year.

his lack of play might allow his knees and body to get 100% (atleast 85%), and his lack of respect may inspire him to shape up and repuild himself in the twilight of his career.

[guava_wrench]

the best situation is noone wanting walker in a trade, then the grizzles not taking his option. this would allow him to reach free agency at the end of this year and sign with the C's @ the Vet minimum next year.

his lack of play might allow his knees and body to get 100% (atleast 85%), and his lack of respect may inspire him to shape up and repuild himself in the twilight of his career.

Nah. Best situation is he invested his money wisely and makes a smooth transition to his post-NBA life.

He isn't the kind of player who competitors want to pick up.

[PSquared]

the best situation is noone wanting walker in a trade, then the grizzles not taking his option. this would allow him to reach free agency at the end of this year and sign with the C's @ the Vet minimum next year.

his lack of play might allow his knees and body to get 100% (atleast 85%), and his lack of respect may inspire him to shape up and repuild himself in the twilight of his career.

Nah. Best situation is he invested his money wisely and makes a smooth transition to his post-NBA life.

He isn't the kind of player who competitors want to pick up.

I heard Antoine owns a good number of businesses outside the NBA, plus he's got that Joint-Venture company with Good 'ol Eric Williams as well.   So I think he's got things all set for stuff after B-Ball.   But it's not the right time for him to consider retirement....at least, not just yet.

[PSquared]

He may be an OLD 32-years but he's still JUST 32-years-old.  Maybe all this Non-Playing gives back some life in those crickety-knees of his.....Who knows?

He might be in a better position if he'd stay in shape.

I'll always have a special place for Antoine b/c I followed him for so long, but seriously, the guy created all this stuff himself.  How many times have we read about management complaining about him being out of shape??  It happened here, it happened in Maimi, and now in Memphis. 

And YET, in Boston...He helped this team become Relevant again. He helped(along with P-Squared) lead this team back to the Playoffs all the way to the ECF after a long hiatus from being in it. 

And YET, in Miami...He played a KEY ROLE in the Heat Winning an NBA CHAMPIONSHIP.  Yes, that's right...Mr. So-Called "Out of Shape" Walker helped the Heat win an NBA CHAMPIONSHIP.   

He's proven that his so-called "out of shape"-ness hasn't prevented him from playing on the court and hasn't prevented him from Contributing positively to the team he's playing for.  Even in '04 where the FATOINE moniker was born, he STILL averaged close to allstar numbers on a gimpy knee.   

Memphis won't even give him a Shot to contribute 'cause they just simply want to go young, not because of anything else.  They just said that Walker "could've come into Camp in better shape"; Is he in better shape now AFTER Camp?  That's what they don't mention.  I'm sure he is.   Walker seems to be the type of player who feels that Training Camp is the time to Get into B-Ball Shape and, at the same time, learn or re-learn the Team's offensive/Defensive gameplans and strategies.  That routine has served him well despite many ridiculing him for it.   He's always been unconventional in his ways....but whatever..

[Fan from VT]

Walker has slipped a looooong way. he is nothing like the player he was when he was a celtic; he isn't even as good as he was when he was on miami, and that wasn't all that great; that team rode wade and shaq to the finals and they would have been better off with many other options besides walker. he just happens to be what they had at that time. i don't want him anywhere near this team. there's no place for him to play that would make us better.

[Redz]

Walker has slipped a looooong way. he is nothing like the player he was when he was a celtic; he isn't even as good as he was when he was on miami, and that wasn't all that great; that team rode wade and shaq to the finals and they would have been better off with many other options besides walker. he just happens to be what they had at that time. i don't want him anywhere near this team. there's no place for him to play that would make us better.

Antoine actually outscored Shaq in the `06 Finals and had a pretty big series.

[PSquared]

Walker has slipped a looooong way. he is nothing like the player he was when he was a celtic; he isn't even as good as he was when he was on miami, and that wasn't all that great; that team rode wade and shaq to the finals and they would have been better off with many other options besides walker. he just happens to be what they had at that time. i don't want him anywhere near this team. there's no place for him to play that would make us better.

Antoine actually outscored Shaq in the `06 Finals and had a pretty big series.

Yup, Yup.   

Whether the Heat would've been better off with other options or not is a MOOT point 'cause, like Fan From VT stated, he just happened to be what they had at the time.   But also, there was no guarantee that anyone else would've played as much a key role in the playoffs and finals(especially the finals) as Toine did.   And there's no guarantee that anyone else would've helped the Heat win it all like Toine did. 

Fan from VT shouldn't be quick to dismiss and/or diminish what Toine did based on his own prejudices and opinions on the man.  Fact is that while he may not be what some here want as a player these days, you can't deny that HE'S A WINNER, regardless of his erratic play, his so-called "out of shape"-ness, and any other quirks he has.

[nickagneta]

Walker has slipped a looooong way. he is nothing like the player he was when he was a celtic; he isn't even as good as he was when he was on miami, and that wasn't all that great; that team rode wade and shaq to the finals and they would have been better off with many other options besides walker. he just happens to be what they had at that time. i don't want him anywhere near this team. there's no place for him to play that would make us better.

Antoine actually outscored Shaq in the `06 Finals and had a pretty big series.

Yup, Yup.   

Whether the Heat would've been better off with other options or not is a MOOT point 'cause, like Fan From VT stated, he just happened to be what they had at the time.   But also, there was no guarantee that anyone else would've played as much a key role in the playoffs and finals(especially the finals) as Toine did.   And there's no guarantee that anyone else would've helped the Heat win it all like Toine did. 

Fan from VT shouldn't be quick to dismiss and/or diminish what Toine did based on his own prejudices and opinions on the man.  Fact is that while he may not be what some here want as a player these days, you can't deny that HE'S A WINNER, regardless of his erratic play, his so-called "out of shape"-ness, and any other quirks he has.

Isn't saying that Walker had a good Finals with the Heat or helped them so much because he scored more points than Shaq a wee bit revisionist history? As I remember, Walker had a good game and scored a bunch in one of the first two games that the Heat lost bigtime. As I remember, most of those points he scored not only in that game but in others were during garbage time during blowouts. His complete Finals series was rather ordinary and I am being nice. He rebounded well in the last game when the whole team played well but, come on. He didn't have a great series nor was he instrumental in why the Heat turned that series around. That is just not how it happened.

[moiso]

Last I knew he wasn't a bad defender, but his offense kills his team.  I've never seen as bad a shooter take as many shots.  A shooting percentage in the 30's for a power forward?  What's that all about.  Plus he seemed to lose his legs around age 25- very prematurely.

[Brickowski]

The fried chicken finally caught up to him.

[guava_wrench]

I don't see the point in trying to defend his past or criticize his past. What matters is 2008. In 2008, he isn't worth having on the roster.

[Redz]

Walker has slipped a looooong way. he is nothing like the player he was when he was a celtic; he isn't even as good as he was when he was on miami, and that wasn't all that great; that team rode wade and shaq to the finals and they would have been better off with many other options besides walker. he just happens to be what they had at that time. i don't want him anywhere near this team. there's no place for him to play that would make us better.

Antoine actually outscored Shaq in the `06 Finals and had a pretty big series.

Yup, Yup.   

Whether the Heat would've been better off with other options or not is a MOOT point 'cause, like Fan From VT stated, he just happened to be what they had at the time.   But also, there was no guarantee that anyone else would've played as much a key role in the playoffs and finals(especially the finals) as Toine did.   And there's no guarantee that anyone else would've helped the Heat win it all like Toine did. 

Fan from VT shouldn't be quick to dismiss and/or diminish what Toine did based on his own prejudices and opinions on the man.  Fact is that while he may not be what some here want as a player these days, you can't deny that HE'S A WINNER, regardless of his erratic play, his so-called "out of shape"-ness, and any other quirks he has.

Isn't saying that Walker had a good Finals with the Heat or helped them so much because he scored more points than Shaq a wee bit revisionist history? As I remember, Walker had a good game and scored a bunch in one of the first two games that the Heat lost bigtime. As I remember, most of those points he scored not only in that game but in others were during garbage time during blowouts. His complete Finals series was rather ordinary and I am being nice. He rebounded well in the last game when the whole team played well but, come on. He didn't have a great series nor was he instrumental in why the Heat turned that series around. That is just not how it happened.

The point of showing Walker outscoring in the series was in response to a point being made about the Heat riding Shaq & Wade to the Finals.  I don't dispute that, nor am I trying to say that Walker outscoring Shaq in the Finals somehow made him more valuable than Shaq (as I remember Wade was pretty much unstoppable and that was the main thing).  I guess my point was that Walker did play a role in that series.  And yeh, they could had someone better at his position, but they didn't.  My memory is a bit hazy, but I seem to recall him making some big steals.  He had a decent series and was a key player on a championship team. 

All's I'm saying is why take that away from him?

Maybe the Celts could have won a title with someone other than Perk at center.   

[Fan from VT]

I don't believe that I have a "prejudice" against Antoine. This would imply that i dislike him irrationally, or have no reasons to criticize him. I do not think that is true. I am simply mystified by the blind worship that he evokes.

1. "He's a winner."
By my count, we currently have 12 people on our roster with as much claim to being a "winner" as Antoine. This is the ultimate subjective label. Is Kidd a winner? Is Iverson? I often hear announces talk about Kidd as "just a winner" and do not say the same for Iverson. Well both have been to the finals and neither has won. A season ago, we might as well have traded KG, Pierce, and Ray for Antoine and Horry, since those guys are proven winners. "Winner" is a retroactive label. If only "winners" won, the NBA would be very predictable. By definition, most "winners" lose every year, and in most years more "non-winners" become "winners" by winning it all. Probably the most overused empty phrase in sports.

2. His role in Miami.
That team lived and died with Wade. It was not Shaq's team, it was Wade's, and when he turned it on was when the series tipped in there favor. Yes, Antoine played a significant role. So did Payton and Williams; both are out of the league. Should we sign them as well?
Of their top 8 players in the playoffs, Antoine was 7th in eFG% (ahead of Jason Williams), 8th in True Shooting % (his terrible foul shooting cost him that extra spot), and 7th in PER (ahead of Payton). I'm sure that he made some memorable plays, but all players in that series did, as would have any reasonably tallented alternate player. Certainly, his scoring totals look nice in that series, but look at how many shots it took to get those points. Those shots could have been taken by someone else more likely to make them. Yes he outscored Shaq, but why on earth would he out shot-attempt Shaq against Dallas?

-In the Dallas series, Antoine scored 1 more point than Shaq in 9 more minutes of playing time, and with 31 more field goal attempts. 31 attempts!

-Antoine: 83 points, 33 rebounds, 13 assists, .402 %
-Shaq:    82 points, 61 rebounds, 17 assists, .607 %
-Difference between losses and wins:
--Antoine: -4.5 shots per game, -3.68 p/40min, +2.61 r/40min.
--Shaq:    +2.0 shots per game, +3.33 p/40min, +5.45 r/40min.

-It's very hard to say Antoine outplayed or was more important than Shaq in that series. Definitely not in the whole playoffs. But even just in that Dallas series, when Shaq started rebounding and shooting more, they won; when Antoine stopped shooting so much they started winning. Seems to me like Shaq was more important to their wins than Antoine.

3. Defense
The Celtics are a defensive team. Historically good last year. Antoine at 32 simply does not have the physical ability to defend as well as he used to. I'm sure that within the C's system some of his shortcomings would be hidden, but he's still a liability there. According to 82games, last year he was out performed by his opponent in terms of PER by -15.6 at SF and -5.8 at PF (granted his SF sample size was nil). Opposing PF's posted a PER of 19.2 against him; for reference, 82games has Rasheed Wallace at 19.6 PER last year. Basically, the guy Antione guarded turned into 'Sheed on offense. The season before he was outperformed by on.y -5.3 at PF (15.6 PER against), and the season before that ('05-'06), he outperformed his opponent by .3 (15.5 PER against him). Generally speaking, Walker's defense has certainly slipped, but not as quickly as his offense has. However, in no uncertain terms, Walker cannot defend small forwards. Which brings us to...

4. The current C's team.
Looks like we need some shot blocking center type or backup small forward. Antoine, especially now, is neither. He is not a small forward. His offense has plummeted, and he cannot defend the 3. If he were on this team he would be taking time away from both Powe and Davis, both of whom are already better than he is overall. A player of his current talent level and position simply does not fit with the C's.

5. His plummeting offense.
Since his certainly good season in '05-'06 with Miami:
-FG% dropped from .435 to .397 to .363
-3p FG% dropped from .358 to .275 to .324
-FT 5 dropped from .628 to .438 to .530
--Considering that his 3 point FG% increased last season from '06-'07, yet his overall FG continued to decrease, this shows that he is becoming increasingly unable to make 2 point shots and/or shots right around the basket. This is not good news for a Power Forward.
-In fact, his True Shooting went from 52.4 (far and away a career high) to 46.2 to 45.5.
-His PER has gone from 14.47 to 9.65 to 11.51.

6. This is simply not the old Walker.
I love what Antoine did for the Celtics when he was in Green. I started watching them in 2000 (didn't really have tv before then) and Antoine was the star of the team and was one of the main forces behind the Celtics' playoff pushes for those few seasons. He earned my respect from that. When he returned to the Celtics, he energized the team and they made another playoff push. He deserves recognition for that wonderful moment in Celtics history; he helped make it fun to be a fan for that stretch run. When he returned, he was disciplined. He rebounded at near his peak rate and attempted a career low in 3 pointers (this is a very good thing). This is not the player he is now. I loved Antoine when he was on the Celtics, but he is not that player anymore. I don't particularly think this squad needs what he has to offer; at this point few teams do. In no way does this mean that Antoine was not a good player or a good Celtic. He was.