Author Topic: Would you agree?  (Read 10332 times)

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Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2008, 10:39:03 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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I would agree that Ray Ray would be here a while longer and will resign with the Celtics. He is healthy and if he stays that way, he can be here a while longer. I don't see why you would trade him to get someone younger, that may not work out.

Also, I agree that Walker looked great last night and Patrick O'Bryant could, and probably will fill P.J. Brown's role (pretty much a younger P.J.) and he will work well in our system.

As said before, we don't need to have a younger team, we need a mixture of vets and rooks as well as good role players. We all know what happens when we have a captain and a bunch of young guys...does 2006-2007 ring any bells?

Another thing, I'm not at all interested in LeBron James coming here, like I've seen on other posts. He's the games best player, but do you know what we would have to give up to get him and his price range would mess up the cap and our ability to get really good role players. Just look at Cleveland and what they're doing with him. He doesn't have much help, probably because Cleveland can't afford to pay him and other good players either. End of rant.

Bottom line, Keep the Big Three Together, they've jelled and learned to play with one another, don't mess that up. Also, keep Powe, Walker, O'Bryant, House, TA, and Giddens. I'm still not sure about Pruitt and we all know how schizophrenic Sam Cassell can be.

As for Scalabrine....   .... .... Scal, Scal, Scal. What happened??? We love ya Scal, but maybe its time to find a new line of work. You're dwindling away.


Because Ainge said that is what the Celtics should have done with Bird and McHale. 



And the key is not to trade him for a potential guy.  The key is to trade him for an established guy on a team that is looking to blow up and rebuild.  A guy 25-29 years of age that can step in right away and be the third option and play Celtics level of defense. 


Who that would be, not sure.  But they will be out there.  They always are at some point in the year. 

Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2008, 10:46:47 AM »

Offline Celtic

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I hate any trade involving Leon, guys like him are so hard to find, not a glory seeker, willing to do the dirty work, rebounds and gets all his points in the paint.

Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2008, 11:01:37 AM »

Offline crownsy

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I hate any trade involving Leon, guys like him are so hard to find, not a glory seeker, willing to do the dirty work, rebounds and gets all his points in the paint.

yea, if we need to do a trade, i'd rather trade baby. nothing aganst baby, but powe is consistant. you know what your going to get. baby shows flashes, but for every great game, he has a terrable one.

powe is always good to very good.
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Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2008, 11:33:19 AM »

Offline Casperian

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Ok, that´s how I see it.

The starting five is untouchable.

Everybody wants to keep Leon.

Sam Cassell will be here.

Bill Walker has earned a spot.

We´ll probably keep Patrick O`Bryant because we need the backup 5.

EDDIEEEE!!!

Let´s see what TA has to offer, now that he´s healthy. We need his D.

Scal can become a valuable trade chip. Additionally, I can´t think of a package including Scal, that would net us a player who could make us stronger.

which leaves us with

BBD, who just enters his second season.

Pruitt also, but he wasn´t even a fix part of the team last year, and he´s the 4th PG.

J.R. Giddens, who we just drafted with our first-round pick.

...aaand, a late second-round pick.

Of these 4 options, I would like to keep Big Baby. If there´s a Powe vs Baby situation on the team, I think that´s a good problem to have.

We want a young player, who either is a C, a forward tweener or simply upgrades our talent-level, depending on what we give away in that trade. A first-round pick would be nice, but I´ve heard that this year´s class is considered very weak, so I don´t know if that is the best option, even with Danny as our GM.

I´ve searched through the ESPN trade machine, and think that the Golden State Warriors would be the best partner for a trade.
They have a problem at PG, and in theory, Pruitt could play in Nelson´s system. They have some very intriguing prospects on the team.

Marco Belinelli, for example, who struggled in his first season.

Brandan Wright, although he´s probably too talented to get with any of our packages (Pruitt + Powe + second-round pick?? Powe would go back home)

Anthony Randolph, who will probably sit on the bench behind Harrington and Wright. He fits the tweener description.

So, that´s all I could think of. Does anyone think it´s possible to get one of these guys? Who would you want, and what would you be willing to give up?

In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2008, 01:57:30 PM »

Offline 2short

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If I'm Ray Allen live in CT and am already a multi millionare WHY NOT resign with the world champions for less money and even a backup role?  Same for PP.

Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2008, 02:05:52 PM »

Offline crownsy

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If I'm Ray Allen live in CT and am already a multi millionare WHY NOT resign with the world champions for less money and even a backup role?  Same for PP.


i agree, im just not sure he'll get a choice. alot of teams will be intrested in picking up a big money expiring contract in 2010.
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Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2008, 04:22:25 PM »

Offline shookones99

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I would agree that Ray Ray would be here a while longer and will resign with the Celtics. He is healthy and if he stays that way, he can be here a while longer. I don't see why you would trade him to get someone younger, that may not work out.

Also, I agree that Walker looked great last night and Patrick O'Bryant could, and probably will fill P.J. Brown's role (pretty much a younger P.J.) and he will work well in our system.

As said before, we don't need to have a younger team, we need a mixture of vets and rooks as well as good role players. We all know what happens when we have a captain and a bunch of young guys...does 2006-2007 ring any bells?

Another thing, I'm not at all interested in LeBron James coming here, like I've seen on other posts. He's the games best player, but do you know what we would have to give up to get him and his price range would mess up the cap and our ability to get really good role players. Just look at Cleveland and what they're doing with him. He doesn't have much help, probably because Cleveland can't afford to pay him and other good players either. End of rant.

Bottom line, Keep the Big Three Together, they've jelled and learned to play with one another, don't mess that up. Also, keep Powe, Walker, O'Bryant, House, TA, and Giddens. I'm still not sure about Pruitt and we all know how schizophrenic Sam Cassell can be.

As for Scalabrine....   .... .... Scal, Scal, Scal. What happened??? We love ya Scal, but maybe its time to find a new line of work. You're dwindling away.


Because Ainge said that is what the Celtics should have done with Bird and McHale. 



And the key is not to trade him for a potential guy.  The key is to trade him for an established guy on a team that is looking to blow up and rebuild.  A guy 25-29 years of age that can step in right away and be the third option and play Celtics level of defense. 


Who that would be, not sure.  But they will be out there.  They always are at some point in the year. 
How about Amare?   The Suns are not going to be good this year IMO.  They are  just too old.  Next year, when they are even older, Amare will begin to get frustrated and the Suns will need to rebuild.  They will decide that they need to free up money for the summer of 2010 (when both Shaq and Nash's contracts expire) and they wont want to lose Amare for nothing. 

We trade Ray Allen and a couple of young guys and maybe a draft pick for Amare and let KG groom him to be the future of the celtics.  I can already see him and Rondo running the pick and roll to perfection.
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Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2008, 06:37:20 PM »

Offline Mr October

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Ray will not retire a Celtic unless he resigns later for less money. 

No question about it, Ray will be taking a huge pay cut to stay here after 2010. He will probably get in the neighborhood of 3 years $25 million and be worth it.


Quote
Ainge will look to use him to bring in a younger star to keep the Celtics a contender for longer. 

The Celtics are no longer set up to bring in a young star for youth and an expiring contract. 


Ray will be the expiring contract.  They can use him to find a younger player that is already established from a team looking to blow up their team and rebuilding. 

Theoretically it's possible but I'm still trying to figure out what team and player that could possibly be...

I think if anything Ray's contract that expires after this one would be the best to use in this scenario. By that time we might have some youth to put around it and it won't be such a high number to find a match.

Its wise for the C's to prepare for both scenarios: resigning Ray for less, or moving him for a disgruntled star. You never know if a disgruntled star will become available, just as that team is deciding to blow things up and start over.

Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2008, 08:34:34 PM »

Offline zerophase

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i agree with the fact that the mistake with the old big 3 was that we waited too long to trade them, and ended up never doing so. when the players retire, you're left with nothing but a legacy, and a lot of bad years of basketball.

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Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2008, 09:54:23 PM »

Offline JBcat

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I would agree that Ray Ray would be here a while longer and will resign with the Celtics. He is healthy and if he stays that way, he can be here a while longer. I don't see why you would trade him to get someone younger, that may not work out.

Also, I agree that Walker looked great last night and Patrick O'Bryant could, and probably will fill P.J. Brown's role (pretty much a younger P.J.) and he will work well in our system.

As said before, we don't need to have a younger team, we need a mixture of vets and rooks as well as good role players. We all know what happens when we have a captain and a bunch of young guys...does 2006-2007 ring any bells?

Another thing, I'm not at all interested in LeBron James coming here, like I've seen on other posts. He's the games best player, but do you know what we would have to give up to get him and his price range would mess up the cap and our ability to get really good role players. Just look at Cleveland and what they're doing with him. He doesn't have much help, probably because Cleveland can't afford to pay him and other good players either. End of rant.

Bottom line, Keep the Big Three Together, they've jelled and learned to play with one another, don't mess that up. Also, keep Powe, Walker, O'Bryant, House, TA, and Giddens. I'm still not sure about Pruitt and we all know how schizophrenic Sam Cassell can be.

As for Scalabrine....   .... .... Scal, Scal, Scal. What happened??? We love ya Scal, but maybe its time to find a new line of work. You're dwindling away.


Because Ainge said that is what the Celtics should have done with Bird and McHale. 



And the key is not to trade him for a potential guy.  The key is to trade him for an established guy on a team that is looking to blow up and rebuild.  A guy 25-29 years of age that can step in right away and be the third option and play Celtics level of defense. 


Who that would be, not sure.  But they will be out there.  They always are at some point in the year. 
How about Amare?   The Suns are not going to be good this year IMO.  They are  just too old.  Next year, when they are even older, Amare will begin to get frustrated and the Suns will need to rebuild.  They will decide that they need to free up money for the summer of 2010 (when both Shaq and Nash's contracts expire) and they wont want to lose Amare for nothing. 

We trade Ray Allen and a couple of young guys and maybe a draft pick for Amare and let KG groom him to be the future of the celtics.  I can already see him and Rondo running the pick and roll to perfection.

It has been mentioned in some old threads but here is just quick recap of some of the big names to potentially hit free agency in 2010 Wade, James, Bosh, Stoudemire, Ginobili, Richard Jefferson, Redd, Joe Johnson, Tracy Mcgrady, Nowitski, and I might be missing 1 or 2 other big names.  Ainge could be eyeing one of these guys for example when Ray Allen is 34 next year. 

Cleveland could afford to pay good players if they chose a different path.  It's more of case of not great money management.  Ben Wallace makes 14.5 Mil, Wally 13 mil, and Ilgauskus 10.8 mil but the good news for Cleveland  is all 3 of these guys are off the books within 2 years so they will a good chance to upgrade their talent.

Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2008, 11:40:41 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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I don't agree about the "untouchables" label. A lot depends upon what happens this season, in terms of the Celtics and everyone else as well. Here's how I see it:

Untouchable:

KG - He sparked the turnaround, is still a great player, a unique talent, and irreplaceable at this point. The ill-will from trading him now would be terrible.

Pierce - Face of the franchise, deserves to retire as a Celtic. I don't care if the C's don't win another title during Pierce's career, I want Pierce to be one of the few players of this generation, along with Duncan and Kobe, to play every game for one team.

Everyone else is tradeable, as in if the right deal came along, they could be replaced. In reverse trade order of the starters (most important to keep listed first) I go:

Rondo - Young, great defense, one the rise still.
Perk - Size, young, toughness, defense, rebounding, cheap
Allen - Getting up there in years (33), least important member of the Li'l 3, least emotional/fan attachment of the starters, sharpest decline last year, most replaceable skills.

I don't buy that Ray Allen is the only shooting guard who could fit with our current starters. Our team would be different without him there, but there are other players who could help the C's win titles. His defense is certainly replaceable. He's a fantastic shooter, so there'd necessarily be a dropoff there, but that could be replaced by improved D and penetration, which Ray noticeably dropped off in last year.



Anyway, the above logic is why Ray is the focus of a lot of potential trade ideas. Most replaceable of the big three, a very un-talked about decline in production, with a large and short contract. I think there are some trades involving ray that would have positive consequences down the road, especially if you are thinking about trying to remain competitive now and bridge to a younger generation. Trying to think somewhat realistically and outside the box:

Utah
Boozer might bolt to a bigger market, so this is contingent upon his signing an extension with boston upon the trade(he's only 26). Boozer may walk anyway, so Utah wants to get something. Utah still needs outside shooting and has always lacked a truly great shooting guard. If they get Ray, they can slide AK back up to his best position at PF, surround Derron Williams with some great shooters to open it up and let him penetrate and dish. For us, Boozer is a young stud, can really help on the glass, and alongside KG he can hide some of his defensive shortcomings in terms of shot blocking while bodying up on stronger, bigger post players. If you are worried about losing Ray's shooting for spacing, remember that Boozer would be replacing a lot of Perk's first team minutes, and with Boozer and KG, the middle remains open as each has consistent range from 15-18.

Trade:
Ray, BBD, lottery protected 1st for Boozer, Brewer, Harpring (salary purposes).

Clippers
If the current team doesn't work out, look for friscal (fiscally frugal) GM Baylor to try to dump some long term contracts. The Clippers still need a stud at the 2/3 and Ray is an upgrade there, while Camby/Kaman is a bit redundant.

Trade:
Ray, BBD for Kaman, Mobley

Knicks
I know this one will have no takers, but remember, out of the box thinking. One of Randolph's problems in New York is redundancy with Curry, as in the get in each others' way in the post. Not a problem with KG as the other big man, as he can draw his guy out. KG can also get his back on D, and I bet that Randolph's effort rises from "catatonic" to at least "mid-level torador" on a good competitive team that stresses good D. And remember that Randolph is considered a negative, so you can get some good chips too, probably, for the future.

Trade:
Ray, BBD, for Randolph, David Lee, and an unprotected first

New Jersey
Again, probably a lot of resistance to this idea based on reputation. Remember that just because Carter seems to not reach his potential doesn't mean he isn't productive. Quite the opposite, he's still productive, even more so when he's interested, like he would be on a good team like the C's. Likewise, on the C's he wouldn't be expected to handle the ball as much, and he's actually a very good catch-and shoot shooter and a much better penetrator than Ray. he's also better on D even when he's not as motivated. And, like with Randolph, because NJ is looking to clean house, there's a good chance of getting extra goodies.

Trade:
Ray for Carter, Sean Williams, the better 1st rounder in 2010: Dallas or NJ.

Phoenix
Don't really see this happening unless Phoenix is really bad and needs to clean house. Even if this is the case, I see them building around amare rather than trading him. But if Amare makes it clear he wants out of phoenix if the season goes downhill, it might force their hand. If so, he'd need to sign an extension as part of the deal and we'd need to take back some extra crap salary as well. The deal below saves Phoenix a lot of money and helps get them some picks back.

Trade
Ray, Scal, 1st rounder for Amare, Diaw



Ok, tear it apart.

Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2008, 08:45:57 AM »

Offline JSD

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Who are the C's going to get in return for Ray's contract?

- Allen makes big money to the point where The C's would more than likely need to take on an additional contract along with the player they are trading for.

- We no longer have assets such as a #5 pick or Al Jefferson.

So unless a team is simply looking to dump a player (i.e Pau Gasol), The C’s will not find a dancing partner.If they do find a partner it will be because the other team has a serious malcontent on their hands or they have a serious under performer (and/or) Injury prone player.
Otherwise, why would a team trade a star player in the 26 – 30 age year range for an expiring contract and some late 1st rounders? It just doesn’t make sense.

In a nutshell you're saying Ray's value as an expiring contract outweighs his value to the Celtics going forward and I disagree.

What is the alternative? What happens if Ray Allen expires as a Celtic?

- The Celtics (as I mentioned above) have Scal, House and Tony Allen acting as their Kwame for 2010. You can add any assets to this package that have been acquired leading up to next season’s trade deadline and this becomes a more enticing deal for a team looking to unload a $ 9 – $11 million dollar player for financial reasons.

- The C's exercise Allen’s bird rights and If Ray gets (as I predict) a contract somewhere in the range of 3 years and $25 million that would be an annual Cap savings of approximately $10 million a year. This allows the C’s to resign Perk and Rajon without Luxury Tax ramifications.

I understand the thought process behind dealing Ray. I’m a fan of the NBA and I’ve seen what has happened around the league in terms of team’s shedding payroll. I’m just trying to make a case for the alternative which I believe is Ainge’s ultimate plan.
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Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2008, 09:00:08 AM »

Offline crownsy

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- Allen makes big money to the point where The C's would more than likely need to take on an additional contract along with the player they are trading for.

- We no longer have assets such as a #5 pick or Al Jefferson.

So unless a team is simply looking to dump a player (i.e Pau Gasol), The C’s will not find a dancing partner.If they do find a partner it will be because the other team has a serious malcontent on their hands or they have a serious under performer (and/or) Injury prone player.
Otherwise, why would a team trade a star player in the 26 – 30 age year range for an expiring contract and some late 1st rounders? It just doesn’t make sense.

In a nutshell you're saying Ray's value as an expiring contract outweighs his value to the Celtics going forward and I disagree.

this is fine, if you assume every GM is likely to value thier superstar as a piece of thier future, which they aren't.

all you need to do is look back at the trade that brought Ray here.

While as you said we did have to give up a lottery pick, which we may or may not have in two years, essintaliy that was an expiring contract (wally's) of near value and a kid who projected as a nice bench player (dwest), thus why they wanted the lottery pick. that trade was essintialy a washed up guy and a bench player for a hall of famer.

and we are not  exactly devoid of the "young talent" you say we need here to make a trade work. indeed, we have alot of younger, more highly prized assets than delonte was at the time. We'll have powe and baby, and possably intrest in pruitt (if kept) walker and giddens. powe and baby alone are held in much higher regard than west was.

No one, i think, is saying that the lakers are going to trade us andrew bynum or some such. But i think its entirley reasonable that for the chance to take the lead in the "free agent bonanza 2010" a team that is one superstar and about to rebuld throught he draft(like seattle was) would happily do this trade. you'd get your pick from last year, mabey our pick and a ton of cap room to make a run at game changing Free agents. Options, of the top of my head with no research are guys like redd (mil will still be terrable next year and probley have a high draft pick), joe johnson (atlanta will be awful again). your telling me those teams wouldnt want to use thier draft pick and give up thier very good star for a piece of d-wade, melo, lebron, and the rest of that class? 2010 is a perfect storm year, thats why its so intirguing. its not just lebron, a ton of franchise players are up.

The secanario here you made out as unlikely happens quite often.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 09:10:15 AM by crownsy »
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Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2008, 09:52:48 AM »

Offline cordobes

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It will be very difficult to trade Ray for better value, unless Rondo is send along.

Ray, BBD, lottery protected 1st for Boozer, Brewer, Harpring (salary purposes).

Korver is the assigned shooter for Utah. They won't trade Brewer unless he has an horrific year and I personally think he won't, he's part of their core. Boozer doesn't make much sense to the current Celtics team and he knows that. And how many S&Ts with all-star caliber players have happened in the last 5 years? Peja?

Ray, BBD for Kaman, Mobley

Baylor is no longer the Clippers' GM. But not even him would do this. Kaman has a very good contract, including a massive trade kicker (and he   is much more valuable than you're giving him credit for). They would trade Camby or Davis before Kaman, but they'll try to ride this team for a couple of seasons. Fiscal reasons? They are under the cap and they only have like $25M in guaranteed contracts for 2010/2011.
 
Ray, BBD, for Randolph, David Lee, and an unprotected first

They are not trading another unprotected first, because they already have one to deliver in the next 2 years. Isiah is not in town anymore. That's why the deals with the Clippers and Memphis didn't work out.

Ray for Carter, Sean Williams, the better 1st rounder in 2010: Dallas or NJ.

Why would they do this? They won't convince any top free-agent to move to NJ if they move all their good players. They won't trading their best player, a decent prospect and a 1st round pick to get one year of Ray Allen. They already have like $24M coming out of the books in 2010, no need for more expiring contracts.


Ray, Scal, 1st rounder for Amare, Diaw

Eh... This one is too unrealistic to comment.

Ok, tear it apart.

Gave my best effort ;)

---------

A deal with the Bucks for Redd is an example of the kind of trade that can happen. But I truly dislike Redd, rather keep an aging Ray with a smaller contract.

Re: Would you agree?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2008, 09:57:34 AM »

Offline JSD

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While as you said we did have to give up a lottery pick, which we may or may not have in two years, essintaliy that was an expiring contract (wally's) of near value and a kid who projected as a nice bench player (dwest), thus why they wanted the lottery pick. that trade was essintialy a washed up guy and a bench player for a hall of famer.

I'm sorry I'm not following you here... The Sonics were in a very unique situation having just landed the 2nd pick in the draft and their management was changing hands. Also,  "a washed up guy and a bench player for a hall of famer."? Wally is not washed up, Delonte is a starting combo guard in this league (starting at the 1 in Cleveland) and without the #5 pick no way this deal happens.

Quote
and we are not  exactly devoid of the "young talent" you say we need here to make a trade work. indeed, we have alot of younger, more highly prized assets than delonte was at the time. We'll have powe and baby, and possably intrest in pruitt (if kept) walker and giddens. powe and baby alone are held in much higher regard than west was.


I don't agree here. I think That Delonte holds more value around the league than that of Baby and Pruitt. Powe might be par at the most...

Quote
No one, i think, is saying that the lakers are going to trade us andrew bynum or some such. But i think its entirley reasonable that for the chance to take the lead in the "free agent bonanza 2010" a team that is one superstar and about to rebuld throught he draft(like seattle was) would happily do this trade. you'd get your pick from last year, mabey our pick and a ton of cap room to make a run at game changing Free agents. Options, of the top of my head with no research are guys like redd (mil will still be terrable next year and probley have a high draft pick), joe johnson (atlanta will be awful again). your telling me those teams wouldnt want to use thier draft pick and give up thier very good star for a piece of d-wade, melo, lebron, and the rest of that class? 2010 is a perfect storm year, thats why its so intirguing. its not just lebron, a ton of franchise players are up.

The secanario here you made out as unlikely happens quite often.

Milwaukee has a poor man Pierce and Allen combo with the acquisition of Jefferson and Bogut has improved every year since he was drafted. They will be battling for the 8th seed.

Atlanta will be awful again?
Horford is a beast and their a young team making strides every year. Childress is solid but not irreplaceable. They will also battle for a playoff spot.

To your larger point... a team with just one superstar in that age range is more then likely under the cap because of the way the CBA is structured. That team will look to add to that Superstar not throw him a away for a 35 year old SG and mid 20's role players

Cleavland at the moment, with Lebron on the Books for 18 million (option year) and a fairly paid Maurice williams will be 20 Million under the cap for the summer of 2010. (Hoopshype)
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