Author Topic: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter  (Read 39755 times)

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Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2008, 11:30:28 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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...with all due respect, you are not factoring in for what you don't know in this situation...

If this trade were to go down ...

My mistake, I thought you were endorsing such a trade, for the reasons you listed.

I was giving my reasons why I thought such a deal would be a mistake.
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Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2008, 11:42:10 PM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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Quote
It seems clear from the moves the team made this off-season that they want to be a player in the 2010 market and the best way for them to do that is to have decent sign-and-trade chips to couple with their potential expiring deals of RA and PP.

Pierce's contract does not expire in 2010. It goes until 2011.

Quote
It also creates leaves the team with a large amount of expiring deals that coincide with Ray Allen's walk year, which is also an option year for Pierce.

There's no option in Pierce's contract, as far as I know. I may be wrong, but I've never heard about that option.

It doesn't create a larger amount of expiring deals, as Roy has explained: Scal+Pruit expirings > Hunter expiring. This alone makes your reasoning hard to consider.

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Ainge clearly tipped his hand this past off-season by insisting on 2 year deals or less for all potential FA on the market.

He offered Posey a 3 year contract. And maybe he has offered deals as long as that to other players that we don't know about.

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So if Dwayne Wade, for instance, wanted to bolt from Miami and was looking at 20 millon per season, Boston could be 12 million under and then utilize S&T to make up the 8 million difference

That would probably imply (assuming a salary cap in the low 60's):
- allowing Ray, T Allen, House and other free-agents to walk for nothing (to clear the cap holds). I have no idea who we are going to S&T.
- not offering Rondo a new contract, allowing him to play on his QO (and probably loosing him in the next off-season)

I'm sorry, but it isn't happening. To accumulate deals expiring in 2010 because they'll be valuable as trade assets next off-season, sure. But the Celtics themselves won't be major players on that market.

Quote
As many-including you-have lemented, this team is thin on experienced veterans.

What's your opinion on that issue, afterall? Is this team in need of more experience or not?

Pierce's deal actually does have an option on it, its not listed on Hoopshype, but its real...Posey was the only player the team offered 3 years to...I don't know what the offer to Maggette was, but I am aware of all the other offers, they were 1 or 2 years at low money...S&T options are only available if some of the risk/reward youth we currently have develop to some degree-that requires more PT for them, which a 3 for 1 trade creates...Rondo won't make it to his QO and i'm sure that is factoring into the financial projections. Rondo's market value is yet to be established, but i'm assuming between 7-9 million...Pierce's option becomes a major factor in this equation...I've stated my opinion on this roster many times, I think the team will play it by ear and see what their needs are in February. Creating an extra roster spot, signing a veteran leader in Cassell, and expecting a solid contribution from Miles are all moves that help solidify the "expected" vs the "unknown"...Miles is a lot less of an "unkown" at this point to the organization, but remains more unknown to the fanbase. pre-season will show what he can do and he was becoming very productive the last time he was playing.


Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2008, 11:48:40 PM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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...with all due respect, you are not factoring in for what you don't know in this situation...

If this trade were to go down ...

My mistake, I thought you were endorsing such a trade, for the reasons you listed.

I was giving my reasons why I thought such a deal would be a mistake.

I love Leon Powe, I think he'll be a very good starting PF in this league eventually and i'd love to see him play his entire career in Boston. But, I also know that the team needs to be in a position to acquire another superstar talent to couple with the younger players and I don't like the odds of getting one while drafting in the bottom of the 1st round. I think Bill Walker and JR Giddens are going to be starting caliber players in time, but I can't honestly say that I think they're likely to be stars.

Rondo looks like the only All Star right now and I expect KG to play another 6-7 seasons because of his body type and skill set--like Karl Malone...so I look at the wing position and see that as being the easiest position to acquire a star at.

I'm assuming that Ainge is also aware that if he wants a longer window of contention that he'll need another young star to bolster this roster, hence my belief that the team is exploring options to better position themselves for 2010...

Offline jdub1660

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I'm a fan of Steven Hunter. Although it could spell the end for O'Bryant.

Not necessarily. (I hope we would exchange Powe for BBD in that trade BTW) Assuming this trade happened, it would just mean Hunter and Pat0 would fight for backup mins, BUT both would be active players especially in playoff time. One would split time with Powe as backup PF.

Active 12 guys for Playoffs:        Inactive: Giddens, BWalker, Free Agent if ever signed
Rondo, Cassell, House
Ray, Tony
Pierce, Miles
KG, Powe, Pat0
Perk, Hunter

Either way, I love the idea of trading lopsided contract plus 2 low salary-talent-in-process players for 1 player to fit our system. We get rid of Scal, move on past Pruitt, fix the PF logjam, AND free up a roster spot for a later signing...Just don't put Powe into the mix unless Dantay Jones is involved.
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Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #79 on: September 18, 2008, 03:43:53 AM »

Offline thebirdman

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According to Shamsports which is more accurate than hoopshype, IMO, there is early termination option for last year of Hunter`s contract...
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/nuggets.jsp

Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #80 on: September 18, 2008, 06:14:55 AM »

Offline Who

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This rumoured trade really depends on who would be involved. I wouldn't be happy with Leon being included in the deal. If the team doesn't want to pay for his extension simply keep him and let him walk because there's more value in that than taking on Steven Hunter.

I'm not wild about Hunter. He's decent.

To be honest I'd rather have Glen Davis defending those bigger bodies, Glen would do a better job. I'm all for having a seven footer who can help out on those big centers but I'd rather someone with more talent defensively.

Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #81 on: September 18, 2008, 06:32:34 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Roy, you just conveniently ignored the rest of the post, which can't be done since its all interrelated.

My math skills are bad, the numbers are almost a wash, but that is also irrelevant...the point about "financials" wasn't' about saving money based on the value of their contracts, but based off of the value of having a singular contract of middling value to include in a potential package in order to be a player on the market.

Hunter makes comparable money to Scal/Pruitt, but Hunter represents only one roster spot and the team isn't really built to give Pruitt a chance to increase his value, barring a substantial showing in the pre-season that moves him up the depth chart.

The main point of this entire theory is about creating PT for less established players in order for them to increase their value. Expiring deals are expiring deals, but a 3 for 1 trade consolidates talent and streamlines the depth chart, which is essential if the team wants to get more value for its unprovens.

An extra roster spot also opens up the possibility for the team to add a veteran at some point in the future...so a lot more goes into it than just looking at the contract values of the mentioned players.

And again, this doesnt' account for the fact that both Davis and Powe are FA at the end of this year and making a deal like this satisfies the conundrum of Davis/Powe...Powe is the better player, but is he worth more than all the other elements that the team gains in this trade: Roster flexibility, consolidated assets, and improved leverage in the 2010 trade market? If the trade goes down, then the answer from Ainge's camp is clearly "no". 

I ignored much of your post because those weren't the points I objected to.  Originally, you had suggested that economics was the most important part of the alleged trade.  They're not, and it makes no sense to argue they are, at least in the manner you're arguing.

As for the rest of your analysis, I'll repeat what I said:  if that's really Danny's plan, he's a moron.  If he's hell bent on opening up roster spots, he'd be better off cutting Scal and Pruitt (or trading Pruitt for a trade exception) than he would in dumping Powe for Hunter.  Also, the idea of getting rid of a talented contributor like Powe (who was *significantly* better than BBD offensively at both ends of the course, and defensively at power forward) in order to clear up time for Darius Miles borders on the absurd. 

I can't imagine that Danny is so asinine as to make the talent on his team even worse because of Darius Miles.  Let's say for the moment that Miles really has looked good in his work outs / light scrimmages so far.  Let's say that right now, he really is playing between 85 - 95%, and let's say that puts him at the talent level of a contributing NBA player (I'm not sure if I buy that... Darius Miles with 15% athleticism is still a guy who can't shoot or play man defense, and who has a whole host of other flaws, but I digress.)  So let's say this 85% Darius Miles, right now, is good enough to make the roster.  Beautiful.  Unfortunately, *nobody* knows how his knee is going to hold up over the course of a full NBA season.  No matter how hard Miles is pushing himself in practice (and knowing Darius, not very hard ;)), it doesn't compare to the rigors of an 82 game season.  Those who are qualified to give a professional opinion on the probability of Miles' knee holding up have opined that the risk of reinjury is high.  According to Kevin Pritchard (take it for what its worth), these doctors are predicting knee replacement surgery as a realistic, and perhaps probable, outcome.

My point is, you can't rely on Miles' knee to hold up.  If he makes the team, great, but that doesn't mean his knee is in the clear.  According to doctors, that thing is a ticking time bomb.  When Danny has gambled on injured players in the past, invariably it hasn't worked out (Raef, Wally, Pollard, etc.)  That should be enough of a track record to teach him that you don't make roster moves to limit the talent of your team, based upon your hope that a guy is going to miraculously recover from a career-ending injury.

I appreciate that people defend every potential Celtics move to the hilt, but this one makes little sense, and the rationale being offered just (in my opinion) is just not a credible argument.  Because of all of the foregoing, though, I don't think there's any truth to this rumor, at least as reported.  Again -- Danny isn't stupid.  Leon is the most consistent producer on our bench right now.  After losing Posey, Danny isn't going to degrade the talent on the team further, for apparently the sole purpose of clearing up time for a guy making a non-guaranteed minimum salary who is on the verge of having his knee explode.

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Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #82 on: September 18, 2008, 07:53:54 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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Roy, you just conveniently ignored the rest of the post, which can't be done since its all interrelated.

My math skills are bad, the numbers are almost a wash, but that is also irrelevant...the point about "financials" wasn't' about saving money based on the value of their contracts, but based off of the value of having a singular contract of middling value to include in a potential package in order to be a player on the market.

Hunter makes comparable money to Scal/Pruitt, but Hunter represents only one roster spot and the team isn't really built to give Pruitt a chance to increase his value, barring a substantial showing in the pre-season that moves him up the depth chart.

The main point of this entire theory is about creating PT for less established players in order for them to increase their value. Expiring deals are expiring deals, but a 3 for 1 trade consolidates talent and streamlines the depth chart, which is essential if the team wants to get more value for its unprovens.

An extra roster spot also opens up the possibility for the team to add a veteran at some point in the future...so a lot more goes into it than just looking at the contract values of the mentioned players.

And again, this doesnt' account for the fact that both Davis and Powe are FA at the end of this year and making a deal like this satisfies the conundrum of Davis/Powe...Powe is the better player, but is he worth more than all the other elements that the team gains in this trade: Roster flexibility, consolidated assets, and improved leverage in the 2010 trade market? If the trade goes down, then the answer from Ainge's camp is clearly "no". 

I ignored much of your post because those weren't the points I objected to.  Originally, you had suggested that economics was the most important part of the alleged trade.  They're not, and it makes no sense to argue they are, at least in the manner you're arguing.

As for the rest of your analysis, I'll repeat what I said:  if that's really Danny's plan, he's a moron.  If he's hell bent on opening up roster spots, he'd be better off cutting Scal and Pruitt (or trading Pruitt for a trade exception) than he would in dumping Powe for Hunter.  Also, the idea of getting rid of a talented contributor like Powe (who was *significantly* better than BBD offensively at both ends of the course, and defensively at power forward) in order to clear up time for Darius Miles borders on the absurd. 

I can't imagine that Danny is so asinine as to make the talent on his team even worse because of Darius Miles.  Let's say for the moment that Miles really has looked good in his work outs / light scrimmages so far.  Let's say that right now, he really is playing between 85 - 95%, and let's say that puts him at the talent level of a contributing NBA player (I'm not sure if I buy that... Darius Miles with 15% athleticism is still a guy who can't shoot or play man defense, and who has a whole host of other flaws, but I digress.)  So let's say this 85% Darius Miles, right now, is good enough to make the roster.  Beautiful.  Unfortunately, *nobody* knows how his knee is going to hold up over the course of a full NBA season.  No matter how hard Miles is pushing himself in practice (and knowing Darius, not very hard ;)), it doesn't compare to the rigors of an 82 game season.  Those who are qualified to give a professional opinion on the probability of Miles' knee holding up have opined that the risk of reinjury is high.  According to Kevin Pritchard (take it for what its worth), these doctors are predicting knee replacement surgery as a realistic, and perhaps probable, outcome.

My point is, you can't rely on Miles' knee to hold up.  If he makes the team, great, but that doesn't mean his knee is in the clear.  According to doctors, that thing is a ticking time bomb.  When Danny has gambled on injured players in the past, invariably it hasn't worked out (Raef, Wally, Pollard, etc.)  That should be enough of a track record to teach him that you don't make roster moves to limit the talent of your team, based upon your hope that a guy is going to miraculously recover from a career-ending injury.

I appreciate that people defend every potential Celtics move to the hilt, but this one makes little sense, and the rationale being offered just (in my opinion) is just not a credible argument.  Because of all of the foregoing, though, I don't think there's any truth to this rumor, at least as reported.  Again -- Danny isn't stupid.  Leon is the most consistent producer on our bench right now.  After losing Posey, Danny isn't going to degrade the talent on the team further, for apparently the sole purpose of clearing up time for a guy making a non-guaranteed minimum salary who is on the verge of having his knee explode.

Well said, Roy.

The bottom line to this asinine trade proposal is this: If Ainge is fussing about freeing up playing time for young kids to increase their value - and is willing to degrade the talent on an already degraded bench to do it - instead of trying to win another title in the Garnett-Allen window, then we can dispense right now with all the "Danny is a genius" stuff.

Because he clearly isn't.

Thankfully, I don't believe this trade rumor. Danny's not an idiot.

Some day, perhaps I'll understand Celtics fans who'd rather play musical chairs with obscure draft picks and potential cripples than win. History - the league's, and most assuredly Danny's - have proven quite conclusively that the two are mutually exclusive. There are still several on other boards who lament the loss of the kids in the Garnett and Allen deals.

But as of today, I don't understand them. Not at all.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 08:05:04 AM by CoachBo »
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Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #83 on: September 18, 2008, 08:47:40 AM »

Offline cavman

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wow, all this over an unsubstantiated rumor, and not a major one at that.  I don't see Steven Hunter as a major talent.

Interesting.
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Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #84 on: September 18, 2008, 09:27:00 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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I understand the rationale for trading either Davis or Powe-- but not for crap.  There's enough crap on the roster (Scalabrine), so why add more?

Let's just hope that Cassell's rumored deal and this silly Stephen Hunter thing have no substance.

You can understand the O'Bryant signing.  He's young and might improve.  Stephen Hunter is a proven stiff.  He'll always be a stiff.  He'll never get better. He's just another Jerome James.

If the Celtics are going to trade Powe (or Davis) and Pruitt, they need to get a competent pg in return, or a center like Przybilla or Za Za Pachulia who can actually play a little.

Here's a scenario for you:  The Celtics trade for one of Portland's surplus pgs, Przybilla or Travis outlaw.  They don't offer market value, but one aspect of the deal is that they cut Darius Miles, which potentially saves Portland a huge chunk of money and cap space.

Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #85 on: September 18, 2008, 11:19:02 AM »

Offline Redz

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wow, all this over an unsubstantiated rumor, and not a major one at that.  I don't see Steven Hunter as a major talent.

Interesting.

Try as I might, there's apparently only so much discussion to be had about the merits and shortcomings of various fruits.

Yup

Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #86 on: September 18, 2008, 11:28:40 AM »

Offline celticmaestro

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wow, all this over an unsubstantiated rumor, and not a major one at that.  I don't see Steven Hunter as a major talent.

Interesting.

Try as I might, there's apparently only so much discussion to be had about the merits and shortcomings of various fruits.



Just to rub it in, the strawberry beat the banana with a game 4 type comeback.

Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #87 on: September 18, 2008, 11:52:53 AM »

Offline Redz

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wow, all this over an unsubstantiated rumor, and not a major one at that.  I don't see Steven Hunter as a major talent.

Interesting.

Try as I might, there's apparently only so much discussion to be had about the merits and shortcomings of various fruits.



Just to rub it in, the strawberry beat the banana with a game 4 type comeback.

total b.s...I demand a recount >:(

I'd gladly convert to the evil strawberry side if it help push up the countdown for some real hoops action!
Yup

Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #88 on: September 18, 2008, 11:56:30 AM »

Offline jdub1660

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I know too many ppl have strange love for Scalabrine..BUT..the situation here is not fitting him into the system. Everyone agrees we need a true SF and a true C to add with Perk and Pat0. Assuming we agree that Scal is a wasted contract, you put him with an undersized PF from our logjam, preferably BBDavis b/c Powe outplays him 75% of the time, and you add Pruitt to make room for Cassell. In this trade we add a true C that can block shots and rebound.
I doubt this whole trade revolves around Darius Miles, otherwise he wouldn't have been signed to a NON-guaranteed contract. Danny COULD make this trade happen(BBD not Powe) and we would have Rondo,House,Cassell,Tony,Ray,Pierce,KG,Giddens,Powe,Perk,Pat0,Hunter,BWalker, and Miles is #14. If his knee starts showing problems before February, then Ainge will cut him and add another piece or two from the Contract buyout pile.
Hunter doesn't have an offensive game worth getting excited over, but he's an instant upgrade from BBD just b/c he's a 7 footer with good D in the paint. There's more than enough players out there soon to be bought out that CB fans could be more excited over. Ainge is just trying to paint a bigger picture for us to see(once again, we must assume that this rumor source is legit and this trade is even a possibility.) PLUS if that ended up being our last roster going into the playoffs, WIN or LOSS, look at what next season's options would leave for Ainge...
Expiring contracts of Ray Allen, Tony Allen, Eddie House, Pat0Bryant, and Steven Hunter
Free agents of Darius Miles and Leon Powe (Cassell would then be an Asst Coach or something)
So next season would leave the door open for twice the amount of trade possibilities and free agents signings for us as this year we figure out which of the listed players prove value to the aging Big 3.
Powe would be an obvious signing, Darius miles...who knows. Cassell gone.The future looks good
Can't stop, Rondo!

Re: Rumor (source unlisted): Celtics might acquire Steven Hunter
« Reply #89 on: September 18, 2008, 12:45:22 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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This trade does not seem outrageous to me.  We have more need at C or big PF (Hunter) than we do at small PF (Powe, Scal) and we have a viable replacement for Pruitt (Cassell).  I am not sure why we would need to give them both Pruitt and Powe plus Scal's contract but Pruitt would be a nice fit on their roster.  The problem with Hunter is the career 48% FT percentage.  In big games, if he is on the court, he is useless because if he touched the ball, he would get fouled.

I guess this rumor may be connected to the Cassell rumor because if we did trade Pruitt, then it would make sense to have Sam as the 14th or 15th player on the bench with a clipboard.

I suspect that it is very possible that this could have been discussed but that Danny is not real excited.  It is a possibility but he is looking for something better.  I like both Powe and Pruitt but it is just not that big of a deal to lose either in a trade.  I would actually rather see them give Pruitt another year than to give up and bring in Cassell.  Powe has been more productive than Pruitt but it is just not that hard to replace an undersized PF with good hands.