My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk

[Big Ticket]

And actually BT, I've always had a soft spot for Joe Nathan.  I drafted him in about the 28th round of this keeper league I was in when he was making his comeback with the Giants.  I hung on to him, and he worked out pretty well!  My heart bled with you all when he was forced to pitch way too much against the Yankees in the playoffs a few years back. I forget the actual circumstances, but he was running on fumes and eventually lost a game the Twins should have won (I believe it was a clincher too)

I'm a fan of Joe Nathan's.

Yeah, remember the game well... he went out for his 3rd inning in the 12th or something, having never pitched more than 2 all season.  On the topic of Nathan, I had great tickets to the Twins in Oakland on Labor Day weekend and got my picture taken with him and a glove signed by him.  Pretty cool experience... best Twins player I've ever talked to in person.

[SShorefan 3.0]

There's no way to discredit 58 saves, but K-Rod has had no where near the dominant season Eck had in MVP year.  In fact Eck had better statistical years in `89 and `90 with WHIPs in the 0.60 range.  He walked 3 and 4 guys a year! 

I'd also point to Mariano Rivera as actually having a better season than K-Rod this year.

K-Rod's had a great season, but he's also had a freakish amount of save opportunities. For me, a closer better have a [dang] near perfect season to win the MVP and I don't see where K-Rod stacks up as perfect.  His WHIP is 1.27

Pedroia's the MVP

As seen in my blog post, I clearly respect Pedroia's season.  But one thing I think that keeps him from deserving the MVP is the fact that he is having similar, if not worse seasons than guys like Markakis, Kinsler (even missing so many games recently), and even Granderson to an extent.  Nobody in their right mind is even muttering their names for MVP, and the only thing that separates Pedroia is he's in Boston.  The same comparison can't be said about Morneau because the players with similar numbers but on bad teams will still be in the MVP discussion at least (Hamilton, ARod, Cabrera, Huff).

The only conclusion to be made from this is that the big run producers are considered more valuable, and unless an nontraditional MVP candidate, like Pedroia, is on a really good team, they'll be overlooked.

BT, you can go beyond the stats a bit for what Pedroia has meant to this team (I know I used stats in my argument against K-Rod).  The guy has pretty much carries a team that has been in a state of chaos with much of its lineup missing and its long time cleanup hitting star being shipped out of town.  He has played a stellar second base, and if they gave an MVP for "moxy" he'd win it.  The team has rallied around this guy.  I don't have any statistical evidence to bear it out but I'd be willing to guarantee Pedroia has more big hits than any one you mentioned. 

Well, Pedroia has been tremendous in 'Close and Late' situations (.384 BA, .996 OPS, 1 HR, 13 RBI) but he is not too far ahead of Morneau in that area (.301/.843, 4 HR, 14 RBI).  When you look at other 'big hit' situations, Morneau blows the little guy out of the water.  RISP w/ 2 outs - Pedroia (.234/.723, 1 HR, 24 RBI) vs. Morneau (.366/1.153, 2 HR, 36 RBI) and just RISP - Pedroia (.306/.831) vs. Morneau (.373/1.123).

Not trying to make a blanket claim for Sox fans here... but there's a lot of truth to the fact that some Red Sox fans (or Yankees or Mets etc) aren't extremely concerned with what other teams are doing, especially little $50 mil salary cap teams in Minnesota.  Don't make the mistake of sounding ignorant when comparing one of your favorites with the little teams out there.

BT, I hear you about Boston fans having blinders for their heroes.  You'll be proud to know I did not partake in the "MVP" Chants at the game i went to last week (and even prouder to know that I sat out the wave).  The MVP chants have gotten a bit overdone, and the Wave just plain sucks.

I've certainly seen a lot more of Pedroia than I have Morneau, so I can judge the non-stat type things a lot better with him than guys from other teams.  All I can say is, you'd need to have seen what the guy has done on a daily basis to truly appreciate it.  A lot of times, his big hits are merely table setters that are breakthrough hits against a pitcher who has been giving the Sox hitters fits all night.

But, yeh, I'm taking the "tie goes to the hometown guy" approach here I suppose.  Your point is taken.

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Grin

The wave does suck and it's a darn good thing you didn't start that wild-card chant either!!   

[Nerf DPOY]

My uncle and I have had the argument more than once about a players team being out of contention hurting his chances at the MVP. I don't agree with that sentiment, and think a players performance should be judged in a bubble. Outside of catcher, baseball isn't really a game where one should be held accountable for the play of their crappy teammates.

With that said, I'd like to add Crazy Milton Bradley to the list of candidates. I realize that he's a DH who has missed significant time, but an OPS over 1.000 is nothing to sneeze at. He should at least be in the conversation.

[crownsy]

My uncle and I have had the argument more than once about a players team being out of contention hurting his chances at the MVP. I don't agree with that sentiment, and think a players performance should be judged in a bubble. Outside of catcher, baseball isn't really a game where one should be held accountable for the play of their crappy teammates.

With that said, I'd like to add Crazy Milton Bradley to the list of candidates. I realize that he's a DH who has missed significant time, but an OPS over 1.000 is nothing to sneeze at. He should at least be in the conversation.

that would be true, i think, if the award was for best baseball player of the year.

but it isn't, it's for most valuable player. what value is josh hamilton providing right now to his team? selling a few tickets?

most valuable player should be reserved for the most valuable player on a winning team. if you want to give out a second award called "best player" then sure, it can go to players on terrable teams, but as long as the critera of the award is

"the player most valuable to his team's success" then your team has to have success.

[Big Ticket]

My uncle and I have had the argument more than once about a players team being out of contention hurting his chances at the MVP. I don't agree with that sentiment, and think a players performance should be judged in a bubble. Outside of catcher, baseball isn't really a game where one should be held accountable for the play of their crappy teammates.

With that said, I'd like to add Crazy Milton Bradley to the list of candidates. I realize that he's a DH who has missed significant time, but an OPS over 1.000 is nothing to sneeze at. He should at least be in the conversation.

"the player most valuable to his team's success" then your team has to have success.

One question I have for that is - would you rather have a player that helps his team win 70 games when they'd win 30 without him... or a player that helps his team win 100 games when they'd win 90 without him?  Clearly the latter helped his team and his team had success, but the former contributed a lot more to any successes his team could accomplish. 

[crownsy]

My uncle and I have had the argument more than once about a players team being out of contention hurting his chances at the MVP. I don't agree with that sentiment, and think a players performance should be judged in a bubble. Outside of catcher, baseball isn't really a game where one should be held accountable for the play of their crappy teammates.

With that said, I'd like to add Crazy Milton Bradley to the list of candidates. I realize that he's a DH who has missed significant time, but an OPS over 1.000 is nothing to sneeze at. He should at least be in the conversation.

"the player most valuable to his team's success" then your team has to have success.

One question I have for that is - would you rather have a player that helps his team win 70 games when they'd win 30 without him... or a player that helps his team win 100 games when they'd win 90 without him?  Clearly the latter helped his team and his team had success, but the former contributed a lot more to any successes his team could accomplish. 

but the first team is still missing the playoffs. So no, its a harsh world, but player A is not more valuable to his team, because his team didn't succeded.

The award is subjective on alot of levels, and mabey we should change it to best player of the year, but as long as its "most valuable" then it goes to the guy on the winning team. i'm sorry, but this is sports, no one remebers the teams that don't win.

It stinks ive your a great player on a losing team, but them's the breaks.

[Nerf DPOY]

but as long as the critera of the award is

"the player most valuable to his team's success" then your team has to have success.

Well, that's just it. Is that in fact the way the MVP award is intended to be determined, or just the prevailing wisdom of the time? Where does it say that team success is a prerequisite for an MVP award?

To me, there's no point handing out an award based on individual achievement if you're going to factor in the performance of the player's teammates so heavily. You wind up disqualifying half the pool.

[crownsy]

but as long as the critera of the award is

"the player most valuable to his team's success" then your team has to have success.

Well, that's just it. Is that in fact the way the MVP award is intended to be determined, or just the prevailing wisdom of the time? Where does it say that team success is a prerequisite for an MVP award?

To me, there's no point handing out an award based on individual achievement if you're going to factor in the performance of the player's teammates so heavily. You wind up disqualifying half the pool.

and tradtionaly, thats been the knock on the MVP award, not just in baseball but in every sport.

as long as the MVP awards are determained by most valuable to thier teams success, which is what they are all determined by right now, it SHOULD go to the player on a winning club.

josh hamilton's value right now to the rangers is as a show pony. that's not valuable. Is it the rangers fault? sure, they have a poorly constructed team.

But just because he's having a great year doesn't make josh valuable, let alone most valuable. it makes him really good, but if the value in sports is winning, than hamilton has ZERO value for the award. his team doesn't win.

Again, im with you if you want to add a new award called "best indivdual preformer" in each sport, but a great player on a  crappy team isn't valuable. its like having a ferrari in a demolition derby. yes, the ferrari is nice, but it really means nothing.

think of it this way, and i don't mean to pick on hamilton, its just clearly he was the best offensive player in the al this year, but how many valuable hits has josh had this year? I would argue zero. whats the point of him hitting a two run HR to win it in the 9th for a team 20 out of a playoff spot? absoultly zero impact.

the guys mentioned in tickets post, however, are having valuable at bats every night for thier clubs, because there detemining wheather thier teams get a shot to go to the playoffs.

[nickagneta]

First, Milton Bradley stands no chance of winning the award. One, he's not a very popular guy amongst the sportswriters who would vote for the award and if you don't think that matters just ask Albert Belle what he thinks of that statement. And two, if they didn't give the award to David Ortiz the year A-Rod won over him because much of the voters didn't believe in giving it to a DH, they'll never give it to Bradley.

Second, after looking at Morneau's numbers, I don't see how they shine so much brighter than Youk's, Pedroia's, Quintin's, or Dye's. Both Youk and Pedroia can argue that they are Gold Glovers and that they bring just as much to their team as does Morneau to Minny. Pedroia especially who has put up a very Derek Jeter-type year where, not only has he put up awesome numbers for a guy in the 2 spot of the batting order but he is also such a defensive rock up the middle for the Sox like Jeter was for all those years in NY. He means so much more to the team than someone can put a number on, much the same way that Morneau is the heart of his team.

But if I had to say there was one guy that played the best and meant the most to his team, combined, that would be Carlos Quintin, regardless of whether he misses the last month. His loss is one of the reasons I think Minny will beat out the Pale Sox in the Central. But again, his being injured probably will kill any chances he had.

[Big Ticket]

First, Milton Bradley stands no chance of winning the award. One, he's not a very popular guy amongst the sportswriters who would vote for the award and if you don't think that matters just ask Albert Belle what he thinks of that statement. And two, if they didn't give the award to David Ortiz the year A-Rod won over him because much of the voters didn't believe in giving it to a DH, they'll never give it to Bradley.

100% agree with this.

Second, after looking at Morneau's numbers, I don't see how they shine so much brighter than Youk's, Pedroia's, Quintin's, or Dye's. Both Youk and Pedroia can argue that they are Gold Glovers and that they bring just as much to their team as does Morneau to Minny. Pedroia especially who has put up a very Derek Jeter-type year where, not only has he put up awesome numbers for a guy in the 2 spot of the batting order but he is also such a defensive rock up the middle for the Sox like Jeter was for all those years in NY. He means so much more to the team than someone can put a number on, much the same way that Morneau is the heart of his team.

I definitely echoed your feelings in my blog, but still feel there are two big bonuses for Morneau.  1) RBIs, 2) His hitting in clutch situations.  He is ahead of the whole group in these areas.  I also don't think for a sec that any of these guys are as valuable to their lineup as Morneau is.  Now, that's not entirely a pro for him (not his fault his lineup has about 7 combined home runs outside of him) but the majority seem to place a lot of emphasis on the success of the team, and I fully believe he is more responsible for the success of the Twins than any other candidate is to theirs.  Oh, and Youk/Pedroia vs. Morneay defensively is a moot point in my mind.  Morneau is terrific defensively.  Pedroia might get an edge for playing 2B, but not a ton.  SS and 3B are more important in my opinion (more right handed hitters, more shard balls hit to the left side).

But if I had to say there was one guy that played the best and meant the most to his team, combined, that would be Carlos Quintin, regardless of whether he misses the last month. His loss is one of the reasons I think Minny will beat out the Pale Sox in the Central. But again, his being injured probably will kill any chances he had.

May or may not be true, but if Morneau had Dye and Thome and some of those guys around him, this would not even be a discussion.  The Twins would be so far ahead that Morneau would have the award wrapped up.

[Big Ticket]

Ugh... and I can't believe I have to root for the Yankees the next few games.  Makes me sick.