Miles: My Knee Will Never Be 100 Percent?

[Vermont Green]

I am not sure exactly on the dates but I think it was last season that Miles tried to come back and the Doctors deemed his injury career ending.  There is no doubt that there has been healing since those doctors made that determination.  What the trainer is basing his statement on is his own ego that he is the greatest trainer in the world but also on what he is seeing Miles do today and yesterday.  I also think that is what Danny is going on, what he is seeing right now.  I don't think it is a stretch to say that the knee has come a long way and whatever precent you want to call it, when he steps on the court for the first time, his knee is going to be in pretty good shape (unless the trainer is totally lying and Danny was completely fooled by what he saw Miles do).  The big question is how does the knee hold up to NBA work, which is much different from even hard core rehabbing.  Some here seem pretty convinced that he has no chance.  I just don't know and I don't even think doctors, trainers, or GM's know.  

What we do know is that he has gotten to the point where he can run around on the court enough to impress one Danny Ainge.  For me that is enough to believe he has a chance and it is going to be one of the fun aspects of this preseason.  I am glad he is in camp.  I recognize that even if he scores 7 points or whatever that he alone will not replace Posey's overall contribution.  I also believe that the difficulty to replace Posey's contribution has been over-stated.  All this "we wouldn't have won without Posey so therefore we will never win without him..." is just overstating the "replaceability" of Posey's contribution.  He is a bench player who scored 7 points a game, played great D sometimes (not againt LeBron for example), was clutch,...  We can win without Posey and it has nothing to do with Miles.  We can win without Cassell and PJ too.

[bucknersrevenge]

So let me see if I got this right.

Darius Miles says he's not 100% and might never be.

Three orthopedic specialists look at his injury, one calls it the worst microfracture he has ever seen, and all three concur it is a career ending injury.

But because he's working with a physical therapist who thinks he can come back, we as fans should be optimistic? Sure as hell if I have major knee problems I'm always going to listen to the physical therapist and not three orthopedic surgeons. Hell, what do they know? They're only doctors. They aren't a trainer.

Miles doesn't make this club and that will be a good thing. Just my opinion.

Is it not obvious at this point that all 3 doctors were wrong about him ever playing again?? I think he's got a better shot of sticking now than not(which is actually more than I thought before) and even if he doesn't make it here I think it's fairly obvious he's gonna get a shot with somebody soon. As for trainers, I'd say Tim Grover is among the most highly regarded athletic trainers in the business with a history of working with some of the best athletes in the country and possesses a vast knowledge of what it takes to play in this league today. I'm not sure what you know about Tim Grover but he is not a hack or a nobody. If he says Miles could be completely up to speed by Christmas that carries far more weight than you understand.

And in case you haven't noticed Danny is big on "sheer talent" guys of which this kid had. We already know it was a big deal in Danny's eyes for this team to become more athletic. I think you're gonna end up whiffing badly on this prediction

[nickagneta]

What you guys are not taking into consideration is something that the doctors would know and what this trainer and Miles doesn't know. That is how long he will be able to do the things he is doing due to the overall instability that the injury caused in the knee. They deemed his knee unable to resume a career, not incapable of looking good over a summer for some tryouts. They said his knee wouldn't stand up the the rigors and pounding that NBA basketball play will cause.

What happens the first time he plants that leg wrong or lands wrong or cuts extra sharp and puts excessive torque on that knee? Are none of these things going to happen to him during this season? Or the next? Looking good in a feww tryouts and training with a trainer are completely different things than what he will be up against.

So if you guys want to put your faith in Miles and his miracle comeback, good luck with that. I just hope he doesn't regret this sometime before the end of the year when that same orthopedic surgeon that told him not to play NBA basketball again is replacing his knee with a prosthesis knee that will need to be replaced every 15 years for the rest of his life. Normal recovery time for that is about 6-9 months. He'll only have to go through excruciating pain for 6 months and learn to walk with a new knee about 4 more times before he dies of old age.

Or he could listen to the doctor and have his knee in good enough shape to live relatively pain free for the rest of his life. I wish him luck. He's gonna need it.

[bucknersrevenge]

What you guys are not taking into consideration is something that the doctors would know and what this trainer and Miles doesn't know. That is how long he will be able to do the things he is doing due to the overall instability that the injury caused in the knee. They deemed his knee unable to resume a career, not incapable of looking good over a summer for some tryouts. They said his knee wouldn't stand up the the rigors and pounding that NBA basketball play will cause.

What happens the first time he plants that leg wrong or lands wrong or cuts extra sharp and puts excessive torque on that knee? Are none of these things going to happen to him during this season? Or the next? Looking good in a feww tryouts and training with a trainer are completely different things than what he will be up against.

So if you guys want to put your faith in Miles and his miracle comeback, good luck with that. I just hope he doesn't regret this sometime before the end of the year when that same orthopedic surgeon that told him not to play NBA basketball again is replacing his knee with a prosthesis knee that will need to be replaced every 15 years for the rest of his life. Normal recovery time for that is about 6-9 months. He'll only have to go through excruciating pain for 6 months and learn to walk with a new knee about 4 more times before he dies of old age.

Or he could listen to the doctor and have his knee in good enough shape to live relatively pain free for the rest of his life. I wish him luck. He's gonna need it.

Again I'm not sure what you know about Grover but he has helped players come back from injury before. I hear what you're saying about the rigors over a full season. I think he's got a better than average shot of making the team. I'm not banking on it by any stretch but I give him better than 50-50. That said you assume way too much. You assume too much to know how Doc and the trainers will handle his situation. You assume too much to think Grover that dumb unaware of Miles' situation that he doesn't consider just 5 minutes down the road and not the strength of the knee over a full season. You DEFINITELY assume too much to think you know the mindset of a kid and whether all the negative things you listed about what could happen aren't worth the risk and more to continue playing the game he loves and next to his childhood idol.

[billysan]

Darius Miles (like our own Tony Allen) has relied nearly completely on athleticism to make it into the NBA. His whole game is based on it, not shooting, not BBIQ, not leadership, not passing, etc, etc. After injury his game suffered and he became non effective.

The fact that 3 Ortho Docs said he will never be the player he once was is misleading. Their opinions are necessarily subjective. Does anyone really believe that Portland isnt/wasnt exerting extreme pressure on this situation to save a few million bucks? Not to mention that Miles was being touted as a lockerroom cancer on an underacheiving 'Jail Blazers' team.

Whether or not his knee is ever 100% is irrelevant. What really matters is if he can contribute as a Celtic this year and if he is worth a roster spot. If he plays well enough to make the team and earn a few rotation minutes, then all of this discussion will be forgotten.

[nickagneta]

What you guys are not taking into consideration is something that the doctors would know and what this trainer and Miles doesn't know. That is how long he will be able to do the things he is doing due to the overall instability that the injury caused in the knee. They deemed his knee unable to resume a career, not incapable of looking good over a summer for some tryouts. They said his knee wouldn't stand up the the rigors and pounding that NBA basketball play will cause.

What happens the first time he plants that leg wrong or lands wrong or cuts extra sharp and puts excessive torque on that knee? Are none of these things going to happen to him during this season? Or the next? Looking good in a feww tryouts and training with a trainer are completely different things than what he will be up against.

So if you guys want to put your faith in Miles and his miracle comeback, good luck with that. I just hope he doesn't regret this sometime before the end of the year when that same orthopedic surgeon that told him not to play NBA basketball again is replacing his knee with a prosthesis knee that will need to be replaced every 15 years for the rest of his life. Normal recovery time for that is about 6-9 months. He'll only have to go through excruciating pain for 6 months and learn to walk with a new knee about 4 more times before he dies of old age.

Or he could listen to the doctor and have his knee in good enough shape to live relatively pain free for the rest of his life. I wish him luck. He's gonna need it.

Again I'm not sure what you know about Grover but he has helped players come back from injury before. I hear what you're saying about the rigors over a full season. I think he's got a better than average shot of making the team. I'm not banking on it by any stretch but I give him better than 50-50. That said you assume way too much. You assume too much to know how Doc and the trainers will handle his situation. You assume too much to think Grover that dumb unaware of Miles' situation that he doesn't consider just 5 minutes down the road and not the strength of the knee over a full season. You DEFINITELY assume too much to think you know the mindset of a kid and whether all the negative things you listed about what could happen aren't worth the risk and more to continue playing the game he loves and next to his childhood idol.

Then I assume too much. But I'll listen to my two very good friends who happen to be orthopedic surgeons who have detailed to me in detail the reasons that Miles won't succeed and just assume too much. I guess time will tell whether I assumed right or wrong.

Darius Miles (like our own Tony Allen) has relied nearly completely on athleticism to make it into the NBA. His whole game is based on it, not shooting, not BBIQ, not leadership, not passing, etc, etc. After injury his game suffered and he became non effective.

The fact that 3 Ortho Docs said he will never be the player he once was is misleading. Their opinions are necessarily subjective. Does anyone really believe that Portland isnt/wasnt exerting extreme pressure on this situation to save a few million bucks? Not to mention that Miles was being touted as a lockerroom cancer on an underacheiving 'Jail Blazers' team.

Whether or not his knee is ever 100% is irrelevant. What really matters is if he can contribute as a Celtic this year and if he is worth a roster spot. If he plays well enough to make the team and earn a few rotation minutes, then all of this discussion will be forgotten.

You do realize that one of the doctors that was appointed to determine whether the injury was career ending was paid for by the insurance company that is paying the bill on his contract? I think that doctor might have had some incentive to find his knee worthy of resuming play.

You also realize that one of the other doctors that found his knee unable to resume a career was one appointed by the NBA as an arbiter in the situation and was completely impartial in his opinion?

Only one of those doctors were paid for by the Trailblazers, so yeah, I think it is fair to say that they were being subjective in their opinions regarding Miles log term prognosis.

[bucknersrevenge]

What you guys are not taking into consideration is something that the doctors would know and what this trainer and Miles doesn't know. That is how long he will be able to do the things he is doing due to the overall instability that the injury caused in the knee. They deemed his knee unable to resume a career, not incapable of looking good over a summer for some tryouts. They said his knee wouldn't stand up the the rigors and pounding that NBA basketball play will cause.

What happens the first time he plants that leg wrong or lands wrong or cuts extra sharp and puts excessive torque on that knee? Are none of these things going to happen to him during this season? Or the next? Looking good in a feww tryouts and training with a trainer are completely different things than what he will be up against.

So if you guys want to put your faith in Miles and his miracle comeback, good luck with that. I just hope he doesn't regret this sometime before the end of the year when that same orthopedic surgeon that told him not to play NBA basketball again is replacing his knee with a prosthesis knee that will need to be replaced every 15 years for the rest of his life. Normal recovery time for that is about 6-9 months. He'll only have to go through excruciating pain for 6 months and learn to walk with a new knee about 4 more times before he dies of old age.

Or he could listen to the doctor and have his knee in good enough shape to live relatively pain free for the rest of his life. I wish him luck. He's gonna need it.

Again I'm not sure what you know about Grover but he has helped players come back from injury before. I hear what you're saying about the rigors over a full season. I think he's got a better than average shot of making the team. I'm not banking on it by any stretch but I give him better than 50-50. That said you assume way too much. You assume too much to know how Doc and the trainers will handle his situation. You assume too much to think Grover that dumb unaware of Miles' situation that he doesn't consider just 5 minutes down the road and not the strength of the knee over a full season. You DEFINITELY assume too much to think you know the mindset of a kid and whether all the negative things you listed about what could happen aren't worth the risk and more to continue playing the game he loves and next to his childhood idol.

Then I assume too much. But I'll listen to my two very good friends who happen to be orthopedic surgeons who have detailed to me in detail the reasons that Miles won't succeed and just assume too much. I guess time will tell whether I assumed right or wrong.

Two good friends who I have no doubt are knowledgeable about such things but not personally knowledgeable about the state of his knee back then and definitely not know. I'm sorry but there are factors here you just can't quantify. You're blanket assumption that he doesn't make the team takes into account so few factors it just...You're right though. We will find out. But I don't think Danny would sign a guy like Miles' considering his situation if there wasn't a chance he could make the team nor be a productive member of it. And productivity is not even the question here.

[Roy Hobbs]

But I don't think Danny would sign a guy like Miles' considering his situation if there wasn't a chance he could make the team nor be a productive member of it. And productivity is not even the question here.

Well, how great of a chance are we talking about?  I mean, Danny signed Kevin Pittsnogle and Jackie Manuel to similar contracts to the one that Miles was reported to have signed (i.e., non-guaranteed with an invitation to training camp).  I don't think the signing says much of anything in terms of Danny's long-term assessment of Miles' ability to contribute.  He's taking a flyer, nothing more, nothing less.

[wdleehi]

And remember, just because a guy is trying to make comeback, it doesn't mean he can make a comeback.  There is also the chance a guy could make a career ending injury worse.   




I don't think Miles makes the team. 

[nickagneta]

What you guys are not taking into consideration is something that the doctors would know and what this trainer and Miles doesn't know. That is how long he will be able to do the things he is doing due to the overall instability that the injury caused in the knee. They deemed his knee unable to resume a career, not incapable of looking good over a summer for some tryouts. They said his knee wouldn't stand up the the rigors and pounding that NBA basketball play will cause.

What happens the first time he plants that leg wrong or lands wrong or cuts extra sharp and puts excessive torque on that knee? Are none of these things going to happen to him during this season? Or the next? Looking good in a feww tryouts and training with a trainer are completely different things than what he will be up against.

So if you guys want to put your faith in Miles and his miracle comeback, good luck with that. I just hope he doesn't regret this sometime before the end of the year when that same orthopedic surgeon that told him not to play NBA basketball again is replacing his knee with a prosthesis knee that will need to be replaced every 15 years for the rest of his life. Normal recovery time for that is about 6-9 months. He'll only have to go through excruciating pain for 6 months and learn to walk with a new knee about 4 more times before he dies of old age.

Or he could listen to the doctor and have his knee in good enough shape to live relatively pain free for the rest of his life. I wish him luck. He's gonna need it.

Again I'm not sure what you know about Grover but he has helped players come back from injury before. I hear what you're saying about the rigors over a full season. I think he's got a better than average shot of making the team. I'm not banking on it by any stretch but I give him better than 50-50. That said you assume way too much. You assume too much to know how Doc and the trainers will handle his situation. You assume too much to think Grover that dumb unaware of Miles' situation that he doesn't consider just 5 minutes down the road and not the strength of the knee over a full season. You DEFINITELY assume too much to think you know the mindset of a kid and whether all the negative things you listed about what could happen aren't worth the risk and more to continue playing the game he loves and next to his childhood idol.

Then I assume too much. But I'll listen to my two very good friends who happen to be orthopedic surgeons who have detailed to me in detail the reasons that Miles won't succeed and just assume too much. I guess time will tell whether I assumed right or wrong.

Two good friends who I have no doubt are knowledgeable about such things but not personally knowledgeable about the state of his knee back then and definitely not know. I'm sorry but there are factors here you just can't quantify. You're blanket assumption that he doesn't make the team takes into account so few factors it just...You're right though. We will find out. But I don't think Danny would sign a guy like Miles' considering his situation if there wasn't a chance he could make the team nor be a productive member of it. And productivity is not even the question here.

Danny signed Esteban Bautista, Brandon Wallace and Dahntay Jones to the exact same contract that he signed Darius Miles to. None of them made the team.

Danny signed them to the same type of contract he signed Miles to for the same reason he signed Miles to that contract. It's non-guaranteed it he's not 100% sure that he is going to make this team.

You accuse me of assuming too much yet you do the same thing. For all you know Danny has zero intention of having Miles on the roster opening day. He could have signed him for nothing more than to have a warm body in practice during preseason to take the reps off of Allen, Allen and Pierce. That is pretty much the reason he had the above mentioned players in there last year. To breed competition, nothing more.

For all you know, Miles is nothing more than an intriguing story that Danny brought in for preseason only and not because he expects production out of him. If Danny felt as confidently as you are making it sound he would have signed him to a guaranteed contract.

[bucknersrevenge]

But I don't think Danny would sign a guy like Miles' considering his situation if there wasn't a chance he could make the team nor be a productive member of it. And productivity is not even the question here.

Well, how great of a chance are we talking about?  I mean, Danny signed Kevin Pittsnogle and Jackie Manuel to similar contracts to the one that Miles was reported to have signed (i.e., non-guaranteed with an invitation to training camp).  I don't think the signing says much of anything in terms of Danny's long-term assessment of Miles' ability to contribute.  He's taking a flyer, nothing more, nothing less.

Couldn't agree with you more. I'm not trying to assume too much here about Miles' ability to contribute. I don't even know how he would be used. I said I give him a better than 50-50 shot of making the squad. Now that still leaves a lot of holes to be filled in and I know that. And that doesn't mean that I've closed the door to thinking he could just be a practice body as nick suggests, or a future re-injury victim as Wide Load suggests. I think there's a better than middling chance he makes the team. Now I can absolutely still be wrong. But I haven't closed my mind to the possibility that this kid could feasibly make the squad. Now he could make the squad and then blow out his knee in his 5th game back in the regular season, but he'll still have made the squad. He could make it and ride the pine all year. But he'll still have made the team. Then again he could get cut and in 2 months hook up with another team and play out the rest of the year. OR he could blow out his knee during practice and never be heard from again. But there are still a lot of unknown factors. How willing is Miles to risk everything to get back? How hard is he willing to work? How strong are they trying to get his knee before he plays an NBA minute. Has Danny let our team doctors look at him? Could they sign him to the team and develop him as a trade asset?

For as many reasons as you can come up with why he wouldn't make the team I could for him to make the team. But what the hell do I know? I'm gonna see him play on the 11th in person and watch him closely and see how he moves. It'll be an interesting story for camp no doubt. I'm just not gonna shut the door on the kid right because we don't know enough to. That is what I meant by "assuming too much".

[LooseCannon]

There is precedent for a guy like Miles coming back.  Remember, Bill Walton was told by some doctors that he would never play again and he spent two full seasons out with the Clippers.  He got in some partial seasons then had one good year of the Celtics bench before injuries caught up with him.  He later had both ankles fused.  And he's certainly not the only athlete to have ignored doctors who said he would never play again.

So, it may be a short-lived comeback, but it's not impossible.  It just might be Ainge squeezing out a season or two of 10-15 mpg usefulness before Miles' body collapses.  And maybe after a good season, Ainge steps aside and lets someone else sign Miles to a bigger and longer contract than his health warrants.

If Miles is capable of playing, can the Celtics afford to keep him on the roster and have him play 10-12mpg for 40-50 games, giving him plenty of rest?  I wouldn't be surprised if that is the sort of protection he needs before his body could handle 70+ games in a season if his comeback is successful.

[KJ33]

So let me see if I got this right.

Darius Miles says he's not 100% and might never be.

Three orthopedic specialists look at his injury, one calls it the worst microfracture he has ever seen, and all three concur it is a career ending injury.

But because he's working with a physical therapist who thinks he can come back, we as fans should be optimistic? Sure as hell if I have major knee problems I'm always going to listen to the physical therapist and not three orthopedic surgeons. Hell, what do they know? They're only doctors. They aren't a trainer.

Miles doesn't make this club and that will be a good thing. Just my opinion.

Just to weigh in on the orthopedist vs. physical therapist dynamic you brought up.  In my own personal experience with both in rehabbing my own injuries, PTs are mostly concerned with function, whereas orthopedists are surgeons, 2 very different roles.  The Docs are experts at the structure of the knee in terms of the science, they know what the perfect knee looks like in an MRI and can detect one that has structural issues quite readily.  However, what they are not as concerned with, as are PTs, is the actual level of function that is able to be achieved in the joint.  There have been instances of orthopedic surgeons looking at an MRI of someone they did not know and swearing this patient must be not able to walk with the structural issues they can see.  However, that actual person was squatting and deadlifting very heavy weight, walking normally, living a functional existence.  Modern rehab can accomplish great things in this regard.  Can it heal the structural issues that exist?  Of course not, but a high level of function can still be achieved with a less than ideal joint.

Now whether Miles' knee can hold up to the rigors demanded by the NBA, I think nobody does really know, but I wouldn't dismiss the opinion of someone who is dealing specifically with function, and only go by those assessing structural issues, even if they are esteemed surgeons.  Plus those consults are much staler than what he is actually been accomplishing in rehab as of late, that is a more accurate snapshot as to what is going on now than what Drs ruled in April which had more than strictly medical ramifications.

[bucknersrevenge]

So let me see if I got this right.

Darius Miles says he's not 100% and might never be.

Three orthopedic specialists look at his injury, one calls it the worst microfracture he has ever seen, and all three concur it is a career ending injury.

But because he's working with a physical therapist who thinks he can come back, we as fans should be optimistic? Sure as hell if I have major knee problems I'm always going to listen to the physical therapist and not three orthopedic surgeons. Hell, what do they know? They're only doctors. They aren't a trainer.

Miles doesn't make this club and that will be a good thing. Just my opinion.

Just to weigh in on the orthopedist vs. physical therapist dynamic you brought up.  In my own personal experience with both in rehabbing my own injuries, PTs are mostly concerned with function, whereas orthopedists are surgeons, 2 very different roles.  The Docs are experts at the structure of the knee in terms of the science, they know what the perfect knee looks like in an MRI and can detect one that has structural issues quite readily.  However, what they are not as concerned with, as are PTs, is the actual level of function that is able to be achieved in the joint.  There have been instances of orthopedic surgeons looking at an MRI of someone they did not know and swearing this patient must be not able to walk with the structural issues they can see.  However, that actual person was squatting and deadlifting very heavy weight, walking normally, living a functional existence.  Modern rehab can accomplish great things in this regard.  Can it heal the structural issues that exist?  Of course not, but a high level of function can still be achieved with a less than ideal joint.

Now whether Miles' knee can hold up to the rigors demanded by the NBA, I think nobody does really know, but I wouldn't dismiss the opinion of someone who is dealing specifically with function, and only go by those assessing structural issues, even if they are esteemed surgeons.  Plus those consults are much staler than what he is actually been accomplishing in rehab as of late, that is a more accurate snapshot as to what is going on now than what Drs ruled in April which had more than strictly medical ramifications.

TP for you KJ. Thank for stating more eloquently than I could about what a trainer does and how ill-advised you'd be to gloss over such a noted trainer's assessment of a player he obviously knows well. As you stated, nobody really knows yet whether Miles can handle the rigors of a full season on his knee. But we also don't know how Boston plans to proceed with his situation either. We also don't know what Miles' will is, how dedicated he is. Will isn't everything but will can conquer a lot. I think I'd be a fool to make an assessment of what Miles can do before seeing him, nor without knowing what Danny might even have in store for him.

[Kwhit10]

It was a high risk high reward situation. I never expected his knee to be the same ever again.  He's already here, let's just see what he can do before we pass judgment.