It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing

[Roy Hobbs]

As for Pierce vs. Kobe...  I love Pierce and I hate Kobe, but I think a lot of Celtics fans are deluding themselves based upon one six game series.

Wow. PP still can't convince Celtic fans. I am with Danny Ainge on this. PP is very talented (and Ainge saw that and kept him) what's going on is that PP will 'coast' (Ainge's word) and then turn it on. He has always been able to step up and turn it on. That's how he got the clutch reputation. His abuse of Kobe out West is what got him the nickname the "Truth" long before the LA title series even happened.

What's even more amazing is that despite the talk of how this would become KG's team and KG was the star - if there was one thing that was incredibly apparent is that this is PP's team. He proved to be the best player over the course of the season and the playoffs. he won the finals MVP over the far more decorated KG.

I have also noticed that guys who actually play with and against Pierce (Lebron, Kobe) etc always respected his game greatly. Its the fans who don't really see what he does on the court that think we are 'deluded" in comparing Pierce to Kobe..

Pete

So...  the reason that Kobe has outproduced Paul across the board, and has enjoyed more team and individual success in his career, is because Paul hasn't tried hard enough?

I think the better explanation is that Kobe is simply a better player.  Paul gives him trouble head-to-head, and that's to Paul's credit.  However, overall, Kobe is better, and I don't think there is anything controversial or "wow" worthy about that at all.  Paul is a better teammate, Kobe is a more talented player.

[crownsy]

As for Pierce vs. Kobe...  I love Pierce and I hate Kobe, but I think a lot of Celtics fans are deluding themselves based upon one six game series.

Wow. PP still can't convince Celtic fans. I am with Danny Ainge on this. PP is very talented (and Ainge saw that and kept him) what's going on is that PP will 'coast' (Ainge's word) and then turn it on. He has always been able to step up and turn it on. That's how he got the clutch reputation. His abuse of Kobe out West is what got him the nickname the "Truth" long before the LA title series even happened.

What's even more amazing is that despite the talk of how this would become KG's team and KG was the star - if there was one thing that was incredibly apparent is that this is PP's team. He proved to be the best player over the course of the season and the playoffs. he won the finals MVP over the far more decorated KG.

I have also noticed that guys who actually play with and against Pierce (Lebron, Kobe) etc always respected his game greatly. Its the fans who don't really see what he does on the court that think we are 'deluded" in comparing Pierce to Kobe..

Pete

So...  the reason that Kobe has outproduced Paul across the board, and has enjoyed more team and individual success in his career, is because Paul hasn't tried hard enough?

I think the better explanation is that Kobe is simply a better player.  Paul gives him trouble head-to-head, and that's to Paul's credit.  However, overall, Kobe is better, and I don't think there is anything controversial or "wow" worthy about that at all.  Paul is a better teammate, Kobe is a more talented player.

TP, why can't people understand this? it's ok if paul isn't as physicaly gifted as kobe (and he isn't). I'd take paul on my team 100% of the time over kobe, kobe is a better player, Pauls a better team player.

seeing how the NBA is a team sport, i'll take the great team player over the great indivudual talent.

also, respect isn't lying to yourself abotu reality. Paul is my favroite celtic of all time (young, im sure i would have a diffrent opnion if i were older) and favroite basketball player of all time. I have nothing but love and respect for him.

That doesn't mean i have to lie to myself and say he's the best SF in the NBA. to me, he's the third.

1. Kobe (SG/SF anyway)
2. Lebron
3. paul

That doesnt change the fact that on the respect and love meter it goes

1.paul
2.Rest of the celtics equaly
3. uh...otehr assorted players.

[Redz]

A great team player is a whole lot greater when he has a great team surrounding him.

[BballTim]

As for Pierce vs. Kobe...  I love Pierce and I hate Kobe, but I think a lot of Celtics fans are deluding themselves based upon one six game series.

  Without getting specifically into the "who's better" argument, I think that one six game series showed that a lot of fans haven't been deluding themselves. Are you saying that the way Paul played in the finals was some fluke? Did he play so much better than normal that you can't call his performance something that he's been capable of for most of his career? Before last season Pierce was frequently described on these boards as a fringe top 25 player. That doesn't seem to be the case any more, mainly because he was surrounded by better players and had a reasonable chance of winning.

[Birdbrain]

Yeah It can't be just that the media and several people have just completely overrated Kobe.  It's the delusional Celtic fans.

I believe that he's been completely underrated because of the teammates around him.  The sad part that C's fans fall into the same trap.  Bird is my all time favorite C but, put Pierce with McHale, Paris, Johnson, and even Ainge and you have a multiple champion. 

Actually put him with Allen and Garnett and they just happen to win more games than Kobe ever did in 1 season.  Makes you think.

[Sweet17]

So...  the reason that Kobe has outproduced Paul across the board, and has enjoyed more team and individual success in his career, is because Paul hasn't tried hard enough?

Across the board? Wait rebounds don't count? <g> If your going to make points have some meat behind them.

I think the better explanation is that Kobe is simply a better player.  Paul gives him trouble head-to-head, and that's to Paul's credit.  However, overall, Kobe is better, and I don't think there is anything controversial or "wow" worthy about that at all.  Paul is a better teammate, Kobe is a more talented player.

The better fantasy player - sure. But when push came to shove PP showed him up - AGAIN. PP has been saying he is the best. People like you scoffed because of his statistics. But when it came time to walk the walk he did it.

PP was not only the best player that series but the best player in the Cavs series - and MANY people (myself included) think Lebron is now superior to Kobe. You claim we are "deluding" our selves - but your living in denial. PP was able to surpass Kobe in a championship series.

Pete
 
 

[TitleMaster]

PP was not only the best player that series but the best player in the Cavs series - and MANY people (myself included) think Lebron is now superior to Kobe. You claim we are "deluding" our selves - but your living in denial. PP was able to surpass Kobe in a championship series.

And hence, Pierce is underrated.

Personally, I believe the only overrated player on the '08 championship squad was KG. And here's why... KG was billed out as one of the top big men, in the same vein as a McHale(+) but in reality, he's probably one of the best facilitators, for a big man, with a great ensemble of skills. He didn't score in the post, when it was needed, and he made too many passes on the block, when he should have taken a shot. Those are growing pains and probably a lack of a "Mr Q4" attitude which you see in a lot of swingmen and power forwards. Ok, so that keeps him out of my Hakeem-like clutch PF/C list but that's fine, as long as the rest of the world acknowledges that Pierce is the C's Batman and KG, his Robin (or perhaps, Captain America since he's a bit more effective than Burt Ward). And Ray Ray is our Legolas, from Lord of the Rings.

[crownsy]

PP was not only the best player that series but the best player in the Cavs series - and MANY people (myself included) think Lebron is now superior to Kobe. You claim we are "deluding" our selves - but your living in denial. PP was able to surpass Kobe in a championship series.

And hence, Pierce is underrated.

Personally, I believe the only overrated player on the '08 championship squad was KG. And here's why... KG was billed out as one of the top big men, in the same vein as a McHale(+) but in reality, he's probably one of the best facilitators, for a big man, with a great ensemble of skills. He didn't score in the post, when it was needed, and he made too many passes on the block, when he should have taken a shot. Those are growing pains and probably a lack of a "Mr Q4" attitude which you see in a lot of swingmen and power forwards. Ok, so that keeps him out of my Hakeem-like clutch PF/C list but that's fine, as long as the rest of the world acknowledges that Pierce is the C's Batman and KG, his Robin (or perhaps, Captain America since he's a bit more effective than Burt Ward). And Ray Ray is our Legolas, from Lord of the Rings.

 no, being the 3rd best SF in the league, which is waht most rational people in this thread have put forth, is not underratign pierce. that puts him 3rd out of 60 of the best athletes in the world at the postion. It's refelctive of reality. on physical talents and gifts alone, lebron and kobe are better at the skill of basketball.

But, pierce is the best player within a team dynamic of the three, IMO, and thus the best basketball player, since basketball is a team sport. From a talent aspect, lebron and kobe are better, from a adapting to the flow of the game and being part of a 5 man unit, pierce is the best.

 

[Roy Hobbs]

PP was not only the best player that series but the best player in the Cavs series - and MANY people (myself included) think Lebron is now superior to Kobe. You claim we are "deluding" our selves - but your living in denial. PP was able to surpass Kobe in a championship series.

And hence, Pierce is underrated.

Personally, I believe the only overrated player on the '08 championship squad was KG. And here's why... KG was billed out as one of the top big men, in the same vein as a McHale(+) but in reality, he's probably one of the best facilitators, for a big man, with a great ensemble of skills. He didn't score in the post, when it was needed, and he made too many passes on the block, when he should have taken a shot. Those are growing pains and probably a lack of a "Mr Q4" attitude which you see in a lot of swingmen and power forwards. Ok, so that keeps him out of my Hakeem-like clutch PF/C list but that's fine, as long as the rest of the world acknowledges that Pierce is the C's Batman and KG, his Robin (or perhaps, Captain America since he's a bit more effective than Burt Ward). And Ray Ray is our Legolas, from Lord of the Rings.

 no, being the 3rd best SF in the league, which is waht most rational people in this thread have put forth, is not underratign pierce. that puts him 3rd out of 60 of the best athletes in the world at the postion. It's refelctive of reality. on physical talents and gifts alone, lebron and kobe are better at the skill of basketball.
 

TP, crownsy.  I don't see why it's an insult to Paul to say "he outplayed Kobe over 6 games, but Kobe is still a more talented player". 

[wdleehi]

PP was not only the best player that series but the best player in the Cavs series - and MANY people (myself included) think Lebron is now superior to Kobe. You claim we are "deluding" our selves - but your living in denial. PP was able to surpass Kobe in a championship series.

And hence, Pierce is underrated.

Personally, I believe the only overrated player on the '08 championship squad was KG. And here's why... KG was billed out as one of the top big men, in the same vein as a McHale(+) but in reality, he's probably one of the best facilitators, for a big man, with a great ensemble of skills. He didn't score in the post, when it was needed, and he made too many passes on the block, when he should have taken a shot. Those are growing pains and probably a lack of a "Mr Q4" attitude which you see in a lot of swingmen and power forwards. Ok, so that keeps him out of my Hakeem-like clutch PF/C list but that's fine, as long as the rest of the world acknowledges that Pierce is the C's Batman and KG, his Robin (or perhaps, Captain America since he's a bit more effective than Burt Ward). And Ray Ray is our Legolas, from Lord of the Rings.

And are the Celtics there if you take away KG's defense, rebounding and leadership?



Why do you have to downgrade someone else's contributions in an effort to make another player look better?


PS, Pierce is not as individually as talented as Lebron or Kobe. But in a team setting, he is able to play them even.

[TitleMaster]

And are the Celtics there if you take away KG's defense, rebounding and leadership?

It's not about whether or not KG was a key component of our championship run. I think it's fairly obvious that he was in terms of all the aforementioned elements.

It's about the concept of being over or underrated. PP has been underrated for years and even him winning Finals MVP didn't shake the cobwebs from peoples' heads. He's kinda contributed in ways that even James Worthy didn't, during his Finals MVP year of '88, but still, PP's only the Truth to Shaq and Bostonians. Big Game James was a national phenomena during the 80s; he was completely respected despite C's fans personal feelings towards the Lakers.

In contrast to PP, KG has been blessed with a slew of superlatives on everything, you name it. The reality of the situation is that perhaps it's more like Harvard Med vs Johns Hopkins Med, Harvard's got a long history, international name recognition, a slew of hospital affiliates, and a great placement history (despite only being Pass/Fail curriculum, no honors rankings) but Hopkins grads consistently score the highest on the medical boards, get direct training/exposure at the best attached university hospital (not an affiliated one, btw), and do the best biomed engineering in the world w/o needing to borrow from MIT's research labs [ *hint: MS at MIT plus MD at Harvard ], etc. I see KG as more like Harvard Med visage, yeah nothing to complain about really but Hakeem, more like Hopkins with a lot of grit, stamina, and ability to play hard and in clutch situations.

[Mr October]

Ewing and Kobe get extra media love because they play(ed) for NY and LA.

Kobe is an enigma. Individually he is still the best in the league... yet he doesn't play that great in the finals (2/6 have been superstar worthy) and his team game still isn't fully there.

Heck those are 2 big reasons why the Jordan comparisons need to stop between the two, forever!

Anyway, I'd rather have the best team in the league. 

[Birdbrain]

PP was not only the best player that series but the best player in the Cavs series - and MANY people (myself included) think Lebron is now superior to Kobe. You claim we are "deluding" our selves - but your living in denial. PP was able to surpass Kobe in a championship series.

And hence, Pierce is underrated.

Personally, I believe the only overrated player on the '08 championship squad was KG. And here's why... KG was billed out as one of the top big men, in the same vein as a McHale(+) but in reality, he's probably one of the best facilitators, for a big man, with a great ensemble of skills. He didn't score in the post, when it was needed, and he made too many passes on the block, when he should have taken a shot. Those are growing pains and probably a lack of a "Mr Q4" attitude which you see in a lot of swingmen and power forwards. Ok, so that keeps him out of my Hakeem-like clutch PF/C list but that's fine, as long as the rest of the world acknowledges that Pierce is the C's Batman and KG, his Robin (or perhaps, Captain America since he's a bit more effective than Burt Ward). And Ray Ray is our Legolas, from Lord of the Rings.

 no, being the 3rd best SF in the league, which is waht most rational people in this thread have put forth, is not underratign pierce. that puts him 3rd out of 60 of the best athletes in the world at the postion. It's refelctive of reality. on physical talents and gifts alone, lebron and kobe are better at the skill of basketball.

But, pierce is the best player within a team dynamic of the three, IMO, and thus the best basketball player, since basketball is a team sport. From a talent aspect, lebron and kobe are better, from a adapting to the flow of the game and being part of a 5 man unit, pierce is the best.

 

Which is exactly what anyone saying Pierce is the better player has been stating since the beginning.  Who cares who can score 81 points in a game.  Who cares who can throw the best dunk.  I want the guy that makes his teammates better and is better leader and who when the chips are down can be counted on.  Mr. Pierce is that guy.  Which is another reason Danny should never be doubted he knew like a select few around here that Paul was the guy to build around.  Let us not forget this when questioning his moves.  That's why when Pierce was yelling 'I told you' when collecting the MVP trophy I knew exactly what he was talking about..

[nickagneta]

Here's my 2 cents as I chime in on this subject:

Hakeem I don't think got nearly the ink or the pub or the air time that Ewing got because he was on a good team in the biggest market in the country. I think for many younger fans of the time or fans that weren't possibly seriously hardcore at the time, it is possible to come across the idea that Ewing was thought as being a better player than Hakeem simply because they heard people talking about how good he was more often.

But it has always been pretty much common knowledge that Hakeem was the better player. We may not have heard it on television and we may, especially here in the northeast, have heard more and seen more of Ewing, but it's fairly common knowledge that Ewing wasn't nearly as good a player as Hakeem was.

As for Pierce being underrated as compared to Kobe, I think the notion is silly. Kobe is without a doubt one of the two most talented and gifted players in the league. Pierce isn't.

But Pierce matches up well against Kobe and gives him fits. Michael Cooper gave Larry Bird fits. That does not mean that Michael Cooper was a better player than Larry Bird. Wilt Chamberlain may just be the most gifted and athletic basketball player in history. Bill Russell gave him fits. Now maybe it's debatable as to whether Bill was better than Wilt but I feel Wilt was the better player.

But Pierce is a better team player than Kobe. Russell was a better team player than Wilt. Cooper was an extraordinary defensive talent.  But in my opinion none of those players were better than the player they gave trouble to.

Same holds here. It is okay to be a Pierce fan and acknowledge that he isn't one of the extreme elite players in the league. Does he give those players troubles in a one on one match up? Sure he does. Pierce is a talented, physical specimen that has a rare combination of size, strength, and talent for his position. These just happen to be attributes that if you roll them all into one player is the type of player that will give Kobe and LeBron problems. Those players can't use there gifts as effectively against Pierce. But against others they are dominant. More dominant than Pierce is over those other players. And more consistently dominant as well.

You can't judge how much better Kobe is than Pierce as an individual player in a head to head battle. Judge them by how good they are against other competition.

Pierce is a way better team player than Kobe will ever be and it is possible that, because of that, they just might end up with the same amount of championships when it is all said and done. A team centered around Kobe might be doomed from the outset because it is centered around a tremendous talent that doesn't work well within a team concept.

That doesn't mean Kobe is a worse player than Pierce, he's just a different player. But he is the more talented player.

[Sweet17]

Pierce is a way better team player than Kobe will ever be and it is possible that, because of that, they just might end up with the same amount of championships when it is all said and done. A team centered around Kobe might be doomed from the outset because it is centered around a tremendous talent that doesn't work well within a team concept.

You do realize it's a TEAM game. <g> IF Pierce was a way better team player then Kobe - he would be a way better player. I personally wouldn't go that far. Kobe is an underrated team player. It's Pierce's talent that your greatly underrating... Maybe if he wins another championship you will learn. I am with the OP. The gap between Pierce and Kobe isn't really that great.

I think it's a creation of the Jordan effect. Jordan REALLY WAS head and shoulders much better then anyone in the league. Not only was he the best scorer he was far and away the best defensive player in his era. So now it's assumed that SOMEONE ELSE in the league is like that. It's not really true. I can see why guys are so anxious to score a ton of points though. It seems that's the only way to get respect with fans.

We have Celtic fans here claiming Kobe is across the boards better when he is a full rebound short of PP for his entire career. It's sad..

If you want proof to PPs underrating by the media at large - the all-defense team. Kobe was FIRST TEAM ALL DEFENSE. That's an amazing honor. That means he is out of this world as a defender (or it should). PP didn't make ANY defense team - he has never even sniffed that. But do you guys HONESTLY IN YOUR HEART believe after watching this championship run that's at all true?

PP defended both Lebron and Kobe much better then they defended him. That's a fact.

Pete