Author Topic: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing  (Read 7858 times)

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Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2008, 10:56:50 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Pierce is a way better team player than Kobe will ever be and it is possible that, because of that, they just might end up with the same amount of championships when it is all said and done. A team centered around Kobe might be doomed from the outset because it is centered around a tremendous talent that doesn't work well within a team concept.

You do realize it's a TEAM game. <g> IF Pierce was a way better team player then Kobe - he would be a way better player. I personally wouldn't go that far. Kobe is an underrated team player. It's Pierce's talent that your greatly underrating... Maybe if he wins another championship you will learn. I am with the OP. The gap between Pierce and Kobe isn't really that great.

I think it's a creation of the Jordan effect. Jordan REALLY WAS head and shoulders much better then anyone in the league. Not only was he the best scorer he was far and away the best defensive player in his era. So now it's assumed that SOMEONE ELSE in the league is like that. It's not really true. I can see why guys are so anxious to score a ton of points though. It seems that's the only way to get respect with fans.

We have Celtic fans here claiming Kobe is across the boards better when he is a full rebound short of PP for his entire career. It's sad..

Pete

What exactly am I going to learn?

I will venture to say this. Pierce might be a better team player than Michael Jordan was. Is Pierce better than Jordan? Not close.

One can be an extraordinary team player without being a great player. That is possible. I am not selling Pierce short, he is an amazing talent. He's just not as good as Kobe or LeBron. It's okay as a Celtic fan to admit that.

Those are things I've learned over the years. That one can be a fan of something and still be cognizant that greatness exists elsewhere and could be or is greater than what you are a fan of. And... it's okay to admit it.

Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2008, 11:47:03 AM »

Offline crownsy

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Pierce is a way better team player than Kobe will ever be and it is possible that, because of that, they just might end up with the same amount of championships when it is all said and done. A team centered around Kobe might be doomed from the outset because it is centered around a tremendous talent that doesn't work well within a team concept.

You do realize it's a TEAM game. <g> IF Pierce was a way better team player then Kobe - he would be a way better player. I personally wouldn't go that far. Kobe is an underrated team player. It's Pierce's talent that your greatly underrating... Maybe if he wins another championship you will learn. I am with the OP. The gap between Pierce and Kobe isn't really that great.

I think it's a creation of the Jordan effect. Jordan REALLY WAS head and shoulders much better then anyone in the league. Not only was he the best scorer he was far and away the best defensive player in his era. So now it's assumed that SOMEONE ELSE in the league is like that. It's not really true. I can see why guys are so anxious to score a ton of points though. It seems that's the only way to get respect with fans.

We have Celtic fans here claiming Kobe is across the boards better when he is a full rebound short of PP for his entire career. It's sad..

Pete

What exactly am I going to learn?

I will venture to say this. Pierce might be a better team player than Michael Jordan was. Is Pierce better than Jordan? Not close.

One can be an extraordinary team player without being a great player. That is possible. I am not selling Pierce short, he is an amazing talent. He's just not as good as Kobe or LeBron. It's okay as a Celtic fan to admit that.

Those are things I've learned over the years. That one can be a fan of something and still be cognizant that greatness exists elsewhere and could be or is greater than what you are a fan of. And... it's okay to admit it.

you keep your crazy rational interpertations of facts out of this homer thread young man!

(TP4U, why is it a instant "your a terrable celtics fan/ hate pierce!!!! reaction if you simply state facts. Just because i ackoledge that those two are better doesn't change the fact that paul pierce has and will be my favroite basketball player of all time.)
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Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2008, 11:57:21 AM »

Offline BballTim

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you keep your crazy rational interpertations of facts out of this homer thread young man!

 why is it a instant "your a terrable celtics fan/ hate pierce!!!! reaction if you simply state facts.

  It's probably somewhat related to the "homer" reaction to people who are simply stating their "facts".
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 12:06:08 PM by BballTim »

Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2008, 12:19:29 PM »

Offline crownsy

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you keep your crazy rational interpertations of facts out of this homer thread young man!

 why is it a instant "your a terrable celtics fan/ hate pierce!!!! reaction if you simply state facts.

  It's probably somewhat related to the "homer" reaction to people who are simply stating their "facts".

if you say so, i think its people who aren't secure enough in the concept of team to acknoledge that while other players might be more talented, were a better sum of 5.

instead they attack anyone who points out what is incredibly obvious to me, that talent wise kobe and lebron are better, as a "pierce hater" which is ridiculous. Paul's always and will always be my favroite player. It doesn't mean i have to pretend kobe and lebron are worse, or puff up paul.
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Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2008, 01:12:44 PM »

Offline BballTim

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you keep your crazy rational interpertations of facts out of this homer thread young man!

 why is it a instant "your a terrable celtics fan/ hate pierce!!!! reaction if you simply state facts.

  It's probably somewhat related to the "homer" reaction to people who are simply stating their "facts".

if you say so, i think its people who aren't secure enough in the concept of team to acknoledge that while other players might be more talented, were a better sum of 5.

instead they attack anyone who points out what is incredibly obvious to me, that talent wise kobe and lebron are better, as a "pierce hater" which is ridiculous. Paul's always and will always be my favroite player. It doesn't mean i have to pretend kobe and lebron are worse, or puff up paul.

  I personally don't care if you think Kobe's better than Paul. I was just commenting on your post where you insult the people you're arguing with in one sentence and then complain that they're insulting you in the next.

Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2008, 01:40:49 PM »

Offline Redz

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Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2008, 01:49:21 PM »

Offline crownsy

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you keep your crazy rational interpertations of facts out of this homer thread young man!

 why is it a instant "your a terrable celtics fan/ hate pierce!!!! reaction if you simply state facts.

  It's probably somewhat related to the "homer" reaction to people who are simply stating their "facts".

if you say so, i think its people who aren't secure enough in the concept of team to acknoledge that while other players might be more talented, were a better sum of 5.

instead they attack anyone who points out what is incredibly obvious to me, that talent wise kobe and lebron are better, as a "pierce hater" which is ridiculous. Paul's always and will always be my favroite player. It doesn't mean i have to pretend kobe and lebron are worse, or puff up paul.

  I personally don't care if you think Kobe's better than Paul. I was just commenting on your post where you insult the people you're arguing with in one sentence and then complain that they're insulting you in the next.

I  didn't write it that way, and wasen't trying to get on anyones nerves, i apologize that something i said has struck a cord, it was never my intent.

In all honesty, i wasen't trying to say someone was insulting me or trying to insult anyone, i was just posting about my views on my favroite player and lamenting that this has become such a black and white issue.

 Sorry about the misunderstanding, insult or ill will was never my intent, be assured   :(
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Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2008, 03:04:52 PM »

Offline action781

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I think it doesn't make sense to judge PP as better than Kobe based on the Finals.  PP and Kobe aside, the celtics had a far better supporting cast than the Lakers.  I say if you trade PP for Kobe, the celts still win the finals.  But if you instead switch Garnett for Gasol (swapping 2nd best players)... not so sure that the celts win it.  I think anybody who with a full pool of NBA players would take PP over Kobe would be making a bad decision. 

The main argument I've seen from those people here is that PP is a "better team player".  But I argue that PP appears to be a better team player because he has a better team around him.  It can certainly been seen that Kobe has brought out the best in Gasol.  I don't have a strong opinion on who is the better team player, but I do argue that the case made this year by PP is influenced by having a better supporting cast.
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Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2008, 04:06:57 PM »

Offline bopna

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Kobe vs. Pierce one on one, id say Pierce will win 6 times out of ten.

kobe surrounded with a good supporting cast i.e Shaq equals champion.

Pierce surrounded by good suporting casts i.e KG and RA equals champion.

so is there that much of a difference between the two?, id say Paul is right, if he feels he is a better player than Kobe, then so be it coz its his opinion and he did proved it in the Finals...If Kobe is such a very good player ala Jordanesque then he would have won in the championship series being surrounded by good players as wel like Pau and Odom...He wouldn't have let the Fakers down.

Paul is a very underrated player and his game is appreciated only if you follow his entire carreer.


also im with the OP that id certainly take Paul and Hakeem as against Kobe and Ewing, heck id even take PP and HO over Kobe/Shaq .

Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2008, 04:17:36 PM »

Offline Sweet17

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The main argument I've seen from those people here is that PP is a "better team player".  But I argue that PP appears to be a better team player because he has a better team around him.  It can certainly been seen that Kobe has brought out the best in Gasol.  I don't have a strong opinion on who is the better team player, but I do argue that the case made this year by PP is influenced by having a better supporting cast

Going into the series alot of people thought Kobe had the better supporting cast. Universally the Lakers bench was praised as far superior. Let's face facts the beat down the C's gave the Lakers was SHOCKING to most of the basketball world who predicted the Lakers in five.

So either PP's supporting cast is just awesome or PP is underrated. I am going with option B. You can't make any logical argument to dispute this really. He BEAT DOWN kobe head to head. it's laughable that some claim he is so much less talented then Kobe despite this. It's a bit like Nadal beating Federer at Wimbledom. You might not like his game as much but he got results.

When surrounded with ONLY Antione Walker and - lets face it garbage - ECF. When surrounded with two slightly over their prime all-stars -MVP finals and a championship. Kobe has only won championships with the THEN most dominating center on earth. It's arguable that right now Gasol + Odom < KG + RA. RA layed a **** goosegg for half the playoffs. Literally 75% of the NBA's off guards would be outperforming him in that Cleveland series. Heck Wally got the better of him on occasion. That's really bad..

Pete

Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2008, 04:23:27 PM »

Offline Sweet17

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I will venture to say this. Pierce might be a better team player than Michael Jordan was. Is Pierce better than Jordan? Not close.

If that's the case then the phrase "team player" has no real meaning the way you use it. <g> It's just an empty complement. Like saying Delonte West is a team player because he seems like a "nice guy." I don't care. MJ was a great team player. He might have been an **** but his teams got results. He made Luc Longley look passable..

Pete

Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2008, 04:35:52 PM »

Offline Redz

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Going into the series alot of people thought Kobe had the better supporting cast. Universally the Lakers bench was praised as far superior. Let's face facts the beat down the C's gave the Lakers was SHOCKING to most of the basketball world who predicted the Lakers in five.

We Celtics fans new better though, didn't we.

So either PP's supporting cast is just awesome or PP is underrated. I am going with option B. You can't make any logical argument to dispute this really. He BEAT DOWN kobe head to head. it's laughable that some claim he is so much less talented then Kobe despite this. It's a bit like Nadal beating Federer at Wimbledom. You might not like his game as much but he got results.

If we we're having a 1-on-1 tournament in the NBA that would make more sense.  That under-rated supporting cast of the Celtics actually had a lot to do with the "beat-down" on Kobe.
When surrounded with ONLY Antione Walker and - lets face it garbage - ECF. When surrounded with two slightly over their prime all-stars -MVP finals and a championship. Kobe has only won championships with the THEN most dominating center on earth. It's arguable that right now Gasol + Odom < KG + RA. RA layed a **** goosegg for half the playoffs. Literally 75% of the NBA's off guards would be outperforming him in that Cleveland series. Heck Wally got the better of him on occasion. That's really bad..

Pete

I think you're greatly overrating the value of taking a team to the ECF in what might have been the weakest year ever for the conference (as fun as it was) and I think you're crazily underrating the two "over their prime" All Stars.  Ray had a huge Finals and I'm not going to get into a "merits of KG" argument.

Pierce is awesome.  His team beat Kobe's. He won the Finals MVP.  He took it to Kobe. Kobe's still a better player.  No biggy.

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Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2008, 04:58:14 PM »

Offline Birdbrain

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Don't worry me knowing Pierce is better player has nothing to do with any insecurity. I can guarantee you that. You can dance around the issue all you want Pierce is better basketball player than Kobe and that is a fact in my mind and will be no matter how many times one of you comments about stats or dunks or amazing fall away 3's.  I had the feeling way before Garnett and Allen showed up and it was only reinforced once the talent was in place.

Kobe getting 1st team defense was the cherry on top of the media completely overrating him.  He can't guard Paul.
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Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2008, 05:08:35 PM »

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Kobe getting 1st team defense was the cherry on top of the media completely overrating him.  He can't guard Paul.


I agree that Kobe is overrated, but I also think people are overstating just how dominant Paul was in the Lakers' series.  He averaged 21.8 ppg on 43.2% shooting against the Lakers; it's not like he made Kobe look like a matador.

Pierce's best contribution, I think, was on the defensive end; in Games 4 through 6, the defense -- led by Paul -- really clamped down on Kobe, and for the most part made him a non-factor.

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Re: It's true, Pierce and Hakeem are underrated, relative to Kobe and Ewing
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2008, 06:43:22 PM »

Offline drza44

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Personally, I believe the only overrated player on the '08 championship squad was KG. And here's why... KG was billed out as one of the top big men, in the same vein as a McHale(+) but in reality, he's probably one of the best facilitators, for a big man, with a great ensemble of skills. He didn't score in the post, when it was needed, and he made too many passes on the block, when he should have taken a shot. Those are growing pains and probably a lack of a "Mr Q4" attitude which you see in a lot of swingmen and power forwards. Ok, so that keeps him out of my Hakeem-like clutch PF/C list but that's fine, as long as the rest of the world acknowledges that Pierce is the C's Batman and KG, his Robin (or perhaps, Captain America since he's a bit more effective than Burt Ward).

KG didn't score when it was needed?  But Pierce was a Mr. Q4?  In this year's playoffs?  That's just blatantly not true.  I've tried to avoid KG vs. Pierce wars on Celtics boards (seems counter-productive considering both are Cs that just led the team to a title), but much of this post is just false yet I see it espoused a lot on the internet.  Even if you just completely discount KG's effect as a defensive anchor (which, by the way, played a large part in helping Pierce contain both LeBron and Kobe) and rebounder (which, by the way, was a key component in winning against the Cavs, Pistons, and Lakers), and just look at pure scoring, KG was still the main guy for the Celtics in the playoffs.

To start, KG was the Celtics leading scorer in the playoffs.  But maybe that's not enough, so let's go further.

For all of those that say "yeah, but Pierce was the man late in games"...KG was the Celtics' leading scorer in the 4th quarter in the playoffs.  Pierce drew more fouls, which is important and I credit him for that, but KG was the leading scorer.  KG scored 128 points on 53% from field and 77% from line in 4th quarters across the playoffs, Pierce scored 103 points on 36% from field and 81% from line in playoff 4th Qs.   

For those that say "yeah, but Pierce stepped up more than KG late in the close games"...in the 16 playoff games decided by 10 points or less either way KG was the leading 4th quarter scorer.  KG: 88 points on 52% FG, 70% FT vs. Pierce's 77 points on 36% FG and 81% FT.

In 12 playoff games decided by 7 points or less either way KG was the leading 4th quarter scorer.  KG: 66 points on 49% FG, 72% FT vs. Pierce's 54 points on 31% FG and 82% FT.

In 3 playoff games decided by 4 points or less either way KG was the leading 4th quarter scorer.  KG 22 points on 50% FG and 100% FT, Pierce 3 points on 20% FG and 50% FT.

No matter how you slice it, across the playoffs KG was, in fact, the primary scorer.  He was the leading scorer overall, and he was the leading scorer late in games, no matter how close the games were.  And despite the fact that he committed the sin of scoring away from the rim as well as at the rim, KG still was both the leading scorer and the most efficient scorer late in Cs playoffs games. 

From the things I read online sometimes, I almost feel like I'm in the twilight zone with the way people credit Pierce and discredit KG.  Pierce is an outstanding players, one of the better players in the league.  I give him all of the props for being a main cog on a champion and bringing home the Finals MVP.  But please, I wish people would stop distorting what happened to make Pierce look better at the expense of KG.  I realize that Pierce is the Captain and the Truth, and that he has been the man in Boston for 10 years while KG is the new guy on the block.  But why can't both get props for what they did?  I just don't understand it.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 06:54:08 PM by drza44 »