If you want to say that we got everything from PJ that we could expect from a 38 year old who came out of retirement I'll agree. He wasn't awful, but he wasn't very good. Did he play a key role for us? Yes, because he kept us from playing backup centers who are barely taller than Paul Pierce. Could other tall players have played a similar role? Likely.
We don't really disagree much here. The only thing I argued against was your statement that "Brown didn't perform well in the playoffs." I know there are other guys who could have done what PJ did. But PJ did it. I thought Brown played better than Perk did in most of the Cleveland series, albeit very subtly. He provided better offense away from the basket (something not every "tall" player can do), and played smart on the glass (something not every "tall" player, even good rebounders, can do). He worked because we were going against two good veteran rebounders in Z and Wallace. They were giving little pushes every time they went for a board, and Perk was getting frustrated. Instead of getting frustrated, PJ just tapped the ball forward a little and accepted the contact, but put the ball in the position he was going to be in after the little push from behind. He just played smart, the way Perk doesn't always do and the way O'Bryant has never shown he can do.
I did not intend to imply that no other center could do what PJ did, or that we cannot win without PJ Brown. Besides, Brown is gone because he's retiring, I won't linger on him too much. Obviously, we have to get somebody to replace him, and I'm not saying O'Bryant won't work out. I have some concerns, but I think we'll get past it and win anyway.
My PJ discussion was only to give him a little defense after your statement. I like him, that's all, and I appreciate what he did and wanted to write that. And me saying that doesn't mean I am accusing you of not liking or appreciating him, so please don't take it that way. It also doesn't mean that I don't think we can find adequate replacements for PJ. I know we can and I am also hopeful (if somewhat doubtful) O'Bryant works out in that role.
Did Posey play pretty well? Yes. Could we have won the title without him? Probably not. Was he a better than average 6th man for an NBA champion? Probably not. Could we win the title without him next year? Yes. Not being part of the "do whatever it takes to bring back Posey" crowd doesn't mean that you're "satisfied with the one title and willing to move on beyond Ray, KG and Pierce already".
I never said that you were "satisfied with the one title and willing to move on..." I never said anybody was that way. If other people have said it, other people have said it, but I didn't. I actually specifically said "People were arguing that it's better for the team to avoid huge longterm contracts for 31 year old guys who come off the bench. I can understand that even if I don't agree in this specific instance. I don't think it really crossed the line into 'Posey was worthless to this team.'"
Now, I said that statement to stick up for your side of the argument. To me, you believing Posey was and is replaceable doesn't mean you don't like him as a player or that you don't care about the Celtics winning in the next couple of seasons. It just means you disagree with me on whether Posey is worth that specific amount of money (4 years of the full MLE). It's perfectly reasonable to think it was and is in our best interest as a team and as a franchise, in the short term (next 2 years) and long term (3-5 years down the road) not to give Posey that contract. I understand the argument, and am not making any accusations toward people, like you, who think that way.
Maybe we can cover the loss of Posey and remain a championship contender in the short term more easily than we can cover the bad consequences of having Posey at $7 million, maybe 14 with the luxury tax, in three years. I don't agree with it, like I said, but I understand it and accept the argument and accept that people who hold that view still want to win as much as possible at all times. Know that I did not accuse you of giving up on the next two years.
I also never said, and will never say, that we can't win without Posey. I think letting him go weakened us severely, to the point that I would have gone to 4 years, provided Posey left us enough room to sign a guy like Walker with the rest of the MLE. I think we could have covered the problems three years down the line more easily than any problems that emerge from not having Posey. However, I believe we can cover that loss in the short term, even if it will be difficult, and I fully believe we can and will come away with another title or two in the next 4 seasons even without Posey.
The Tony Allen fans pretty much expect him to play as well as he has in the past before he was injured. That's completely different from Patrick O'Bryant. And Gerald Henderson was essential to us winning the title in 1984. He made a play that was more clutch than anything you'll see from Posey or PJ. Did that mean that we'd drop from the ranks of serious contenders when he left? Does it mean that if we had another player of similar ability to Henderson who made different key plays than Gerald did that we'd have lost in 1984? Who knows? People twist "we couldn't have won that game without PJ playing like he did" to "we couldn't have won that game (or another game we lost) with a different player making different contributions".
Okay, there's one part where we disagree - Tony Allen. You expect him to return to what he used to be before injuries. I have a lot of hope for him, but first, I don't expect him to return to that, not with some explosiveness lost. And second, I don't really want him just to return to what he was before. His turnover tendencies, which were fully on display before he was ever hurt, bug me and make me doubt his ability to be an above average player.
I want him to get better than he was and hope he can. But I personally don't think he's done anything to warrant a belief that he'll live up to his potential. You obviously do. We disagree on that, but I see the reason on your side. I'm sure we both hope he does turn into the player he had potential to be a couple of years ago, not just the player he was a couple of years ago - I want him to be better than he's ever been and have hope, even if I also have doubt, he can do it, at least well enough to help us toward another title.
The overall reason Tony Allen and O'Bryant got lumped in together is because this entire thread is dedicated to obsession with young players. Those are two young players, for whom we paid a combined $4+ million for this year and next. I admit Tony Allen has done more for the Celtics to be deserving of a contract than O'Bryant, and they're completely different signings. I lump them together because they're both young and symptomatic of the point brought up in the original post.
I also don't see the reason for the Henderson argument. Henderson was replaceable, and Posey is too. I'm with you on that, if I didn't make clear before. I just don't see where it fits into this discussion. If we could have traded Posey for the #2 pick in the draft in a couple of years, I would've signed up for that in a heartbeat.
Now, your last point may be true. If we hadn't gotten James Posey, maybe we'd have somebody else in there who could have done different great things and we would've won anyway. Maybe Allen could have gotten that big steal Posey got toward the end of Game 6 against Detroit. But I'll say this. When Posey hit a 3 in the fourth quarter of Game 4 to cut it to a 1 point game, then when he hit another with the shot clock running down and a minute left to extend it to a 5 point lead - I don't think Tony Allen makes either, much less both, of those shots. Allen can do some of the things Posey can do, but Posey can also make big shots when we need them. He can be replaced, and we can win without him, but I just think it was worth his asking price to keep him, a guy we know can help us win now, in green.
Hopefully, Allen can give bigger contributions this year with good perimeter defense and slashing like he used to, with fewer turnovers and better shooting. And hopefully Giddens and Walker can both provide some more of those things off the bench as well. I think they can do enough to compensate for the loss of Posey. Plus, I think our team will improve from the full year together and put us in fewer dire situations where we need a big shot from Posey to bail us out. I think it can and will happen, I just would have preferred knowing Posey was there for us.
Granted, perhaps they're overestimating the value of PJ and Posey. Assuming for argument's sake that is true, they're overestimating the value of players they like just like others are overestimating the value of players they like in Allen and O'Bryant. While that is a similarity, you're ignoring the crux of the argument. If Coach and Roy are overvaluing, they're doing so on the basis of things PJ and Posey have actually accomplished, while in Celtics uniforms; their criticism of Allen and O'Bryant supporters is that those people are overestimating on the basis of things those guys have never accomplished. It's a vastly different argument.
I'm not sure how to respond to this. Are you saying that it's ok for people who overrate players to post about how other people overrate different players because their reason for overrating players is different? It seems like fair game to me.
The more I think about it, you're probably right on this. It was an unnecessary point to pick out. I was responding more to you saying it was "essentially the same thing." You're right, it is essentially the same thing, because at it's core the essence of the argument is about overrating players for one reason or another. They think it's wrong to overrate players just because they have potential that's never been proven. You think it's just as wrong, and you're probably right, to overrate players just because of something they did in the past, even the recent past. But you are exactly correct, if you are overrating, you are overrating and the reasons for it really don't matter.
I guess I argued it because I don't think Posey and PJ's values were overrated, I think they were underrated. But that's different from the actual, and incorrect, argument I made. Thanks for pointing out my faulty logic. I stand corrected. We think Allen and O'Bryant are overvalued; you think Posey is overvalued (at least at that price). It's really the same thing and you were correct to make the comparison - the arguments are "essentially the same" and it was pointless and off-topic for me to argue the arguments aren't exactly the same, which may be true but was entirely irrelevant. Sorry about that.
This is not to say that I hate the O'Bryant or Allen signings. I'm fine with both, with this one caveat. I think we overpaid for both of them. And I really don't see why you refuse to overpay a guy who was an integral part of a championship but are okay with overpaying guys who did not make any (O'Bryant) or even large (Allen) contributions to that championship team.
You have to consider the magnitude. Posey's deal was longer and larger than Allen or O'Bryant's deals so it would restrict future transactions. And, frankly, Ainge was going to overpay Posey (3 years of the MLE), there was just a limit to how much he'd overpay him.
Again, you might be right. I was glad Danny took the money made available when Posey went elsewhere and spent it on House and Allen - I think the O'Bryant signing was already done at that point. And Posey's deal was two years longer. Part of me is frustrated because I feel that we could have gotten Posey for a 3 year MLE deal if we offered it sooner, but hey, that's how negotiations work. It worked out for Posey, he got overpaid by New Orleans, I fully admit that. Hopefully it works out for us, too, and not paying that money to Posey benefits us more than paying it would have. And if it was overpaying (I'm not as convinced we would have been overpaying Posey with the same deal, since I think he has more value to us than to New Orleans), then yes, it would probably be significantly more overpaying than the O'Bryant and Allen deals.
I hope, and believe, the Celtics will overcome the loss of their Sixth Man, and that the youth will work out. I wish we had kept Posey so I would have to rely less on that. But I understand why people disagree, and also understand that if you're on this site, you want the Celtics to win (visitors excepted). In no way did I mean to disparage your fanhood, Tim, I disagree with you on several things, but know that you are making your evaluations on the basis of what makes the best team, and I thank you for calling me out on my lesser arguments.
Topic: Why Are Boston Fans Obsessed with Young Players? (Read 9168 times)