Why Are Boston Fans Obsessed with Young Players?

[gpap]

Reading the Manny to Dodgers thread was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Fans posting that Matt Kemp and some other prospects I've never heard of would be appropriate replacements for Manny.

Another thread regarding the Tejada to Sox rumor included a post by a fan saying something similar like "oh Tejada is old..why would we want him?"
In other words, because Tejada isn't young with potential, the fan trashed Tejada.

Are you kidding me?  People, just because someone is young with potential doesn't make them a great player.

My five year old niece is young and has potential..doesn't mean she's going to be a great sports player.

I read alot of other threads on this site (and other websites) and I just scratch my head. Alot of times I get the feeling that most Boston sport fans care moe about having a PG-13 sports team than a team that wins.

[xmuscularghandix]

 Becuase right NOW is about experience, and young with POTENTIAL mean for the future. everybody wins every year, obviously an exaggeration, but all the teams are just winning, and winning, and WINNING. so the fans have a feeling of "we're okay now, but i want to keep winning. this guy's getting old, this guys getting old so we need to get young"

 Every team has there young stud that people are excited about:

Red Sox:
Jacoby Ellsbury
Dustin Pedroia
Jed Lowrie
Justin Masterson
Clay Bucholtz

Celtics:
Rondo
BBD
Powe
Walker
Pruitt

Patriots:
Merriweather
Mayo
Crable
Wheatley

Bruins: (this is the exception, becuase they should be getting an all-star goal scorer not hyping young talent)
Lucic
Kessell
Krejci

When your at the top you just wanna find a way to stay on top, and thats developing your young talent while the studs at the big level win you championchips. Bruschi will retire leave Mayo the helm, Schilling already got us two rings and will leave with Lester taking his role as the other ace. The big three don't necesarilly have their replacements yet but we're defenitly developing our own guys to fit around who ever fills those rolls.

and besides Boston is just such a smart sports town that we actually know our young talent, from what i hear most other places don't get excited for the day a random AAA pitcher comes up to fill in an injured starter's roll... here they do.

[steve]

Young players represent the springtime.  A hope of something fresh and exciting.  People in the North East are depressed in the winter time.  When life starts to blossom via the springtime they feel alive themselves. 

We adopt the youth and give them unconditional love because they are the source of our happiness.  We get off on watching them grow each season because it makes us feel like depression is ending, just like the springtime.

The hope that they will grow to be stars can get us through the offseason. Sometimes they don't grow as big as we thought they would and we begin to tear them down.  Sometimes they do grow into stars but as soon as they begin to die, we tear them down too. 

Winning is never as satisfying as the hope of winning.  And the hope is in the youth.

[Montrossity]

Because Boston teams arent some small market franchise with aspirations of simply making the playoffs or getting a chance to play in the championship game/series.  Boston teams strive to win and keep on winning, and to do that you need to know when to cast off aging and less productive players and bring in the young guys who will become the stars and faces of the franchise.  A system that raises its own team tends to be a lot more successful, especially in the long run, than a team of hired mercenaries. 

For example: Would you rather be the Devil Rays and Brewers, who have almost entirely home grown teams, a boatload of stars and all of them young enough that they are guaranteed to be a competitive team for years to come, or a team like the Astros (who are far from the worst, but an example nonetheless) who have traded away pretty much anything decent they had going for the future for Carlos Lee, Tejada and a rental of Carlos Beltran.  While all of them are undeniably talented, the team hasnt won anything and dont look like they will/can for some time.  Meanwhile, they now are stuck with guys who will be running out of gas soon with no talented younger players to take up the reigns.  Oh, and they also have no young players to part with should they want to acquire a vet talent for a run, unlike the Brewers who were able to afford to pay the price to obtain a CC Sabathia without impacting their team in the slightest. 

[JBcat]

I don't think that's always the case.  I think in general the younger you are the more hopeful you are with young players and the older you are the more you realize many talented young players don't pan out like Todd Benzinger and Kevin Morton of the Sox and Michael Smith and Kedrick Brown of the Celts.   

I think with Manny the Sox are thinking do they really want to pay  37 year old next year 20 million who is an unhappy camper and there were reports debating Tejeda's real age and some think he was a former steroids user.   I think every situation is different whether you want an older player or a young player with talent.   I think most Sox fans were happy when we got Schilling several years back, happy the sox re-signed Mike Lowell, and with the Celts we are obviously happy with KG and Ray on the wrong side of 30. 

[CoachBo]

Reading the Manny to Dodgers thread was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Fans posting that Matt Kemp and some other prospects I've never heard of would be appropriate replacements for Manny.

Another thread regarding the Tejada to Sox rumor included a post by a fan saying something similar like "oh Tejada is old..why would we want him?"
In other words, because Tejada isn't young with potential, the fan trashed Tejada.

Are you kidding me?  People, just because someone is young with potential doesn't make them a great player.

My five year old niece is young and has potential..doesn't mean she's going to be a great sports player.

I read alot of other threads on this site (and other websites) and I just scratch my head. Alot of times I get the feeling that most Boston sport fans care moe about having a PG-13 sports team than a team that wins.

TP for an excellent topic, Gpap. Relatively new to this board, but the fascination with unproven and unaccomplished youth isn't unique to this board at all. It's on EVERY Celtics board out there. There's one - Celtic Nation - where you can still get into an argument about whether "all our promising youth" should have been dealt for Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen. Unbelievable.

The Celtics developed one player with who can accurately be characterized with great potential - Al Jefferson, although he can't defend a chair right now. They grew a couple of players who will be solid NBA role players - West and Gomes.

Beyond that ... nothing. I think you've seen the phenomenon in the hyperbole surrounding Tony Allen - Roy Hobbs' description of him as a "savant" is CB HOF material - and the scramble for excuses to defend the signing of Patrick O'Bryant, a massive college underachiever who couldn't make a team that doesn't require anyone to play defense.

Danny appears to be a card-carrying member of the club, and right now his obsession scares me to death - because our bench looks like the bare late 1980s benches that accelerated the minutes - and thus the decline - of Bird and McHale.

The danger in this approach falls when you begin believing that you're such an astute judge of "potential" that you can start sweeping out proven veterans and replacing them with the soup du jour off the scrap heap, ostensibly to save money. It's a very dangerous game.

[moskqq]

An excellent blueprint in support of this thread could be the emphasis placed on drafted players and their expected impact on future team performance. All drafted players present with "great" POTENTIAL, especially those taken in the lottery.  Yet, in retrospect, less than half of those taken in the first round have productive NBA careers.

Players are drafted on "potential" and sometimes without due regard for demonstrated PRODUCTION.  If one cannot dominate at lower levels of competition is it reasonable to expect them to perform better on the larger platform?

A case in point could be the future of Greg Oden.  He has size, athleticism, rudimentary offensive skills and supposedly advanced defensive presence.  As the first player drafted, will his career be necessarily better than those drafted later?  And what of O'Bryant?  An underachiever with size and reasonable athleticism, rudimentary offensive skills and slightly better defensive presence, could his NBA career parallel that of Oden, especially if Oden remains "injury-prone"?  Such is the hype with 7' players and the dearth of centers around which traditional championship teams are built.

The expectations of young players conjures memories of another Michael Jordan and the possibility that the franchise "savior" has just arrived.

[gpap]

I don't think that's always the case.  I think in general the younger you are the more hopeful you are with young players and the older you are the more you realize many talented young players don't pan out like Todd Benzinger and Kevin Morton of the Sox and Michael Smith and Kedrick Brown of the Celts.   

I think with Manny the Sox are thinking do they really want to pay  37 year old next year 20 million who is an unhappy camper and there were reports debating Tejeda's real age and some think he was a former steroids user.   I think every situation is different whether you want an older player or a young player with talent.   I think most Sox fans were happy when we got Schilling several years back, happy the sox re-signed Mike Lowell, and with the Celts we are obviously happy with KG and Ray on the wrong side of 30. 

With all due respect, I'd like to correct you. Originally, most Celtics fans were very tepid in their reaction to Ray Allen and KG being dealt here.

I remember after the draft night Ray Allen deal...alot of fans actually had the audacity to say that Ray Allen was washed-up, a has-been and that we were better off with Delonte, our 1st round-draft pick and Wally Sczerbiak (I can't believe that last part.)

And...if that wasn't bad enough...originally fans were split 50/50 on how they felt about Jefferson and Gomes being dealt for KG. 

Now maybe fans are happy we dealt for both players because KG and Ray proved all these fans wrong and won a championship.

But originally it wasn't like that.

[CoachCowens]

I don't think that's always the case.  I think in general the younger you are the more hopeful you are with young players and the older you are the more you realize many talented young players don't pan out like Todd Benzinger and Kevin Morton of the Sox and Michael Smith and Kedrick Brown of the Celts.   

I think with Manny the Sox are thinking do they really want to pay  37 year old next year 20 million who is an unhappy camper and there were reports debating Tejeda's real age and some think he was a former steroids user.   I think every situation is different whether you want an older player or a young player with talent.   I think most Sox fans were happy when we got Schilling several years back, happy the sox re-signed Mike Lowell, and with the Celts we are obviously happy with KG and Ray on the wrong side of 30. 

With all due respect, I'd like to correct you. Originally, most Celtics fans were very tepid in their reaction to Ray Allen and KG being dealt here.

I remember after the draft night Ray Allen deal...alot of fans actually had the audacity to say that Ray Allen was washed-up, a has-been and that we were better off with Delonte, our 1st round-draft pick and Wally Sczerbiak (I can't believe that last part.)

And...if that wasn't bad enough...originally fans were split 50/50 on how they felt about Jefferson and Gomes being dealt for KG. 

Now maybe fans are happy we dealt for both players because KG and Ray proved all these fans wrong and won a championship.

But originally it wasn't like that.

I agree on the Ray Allen trade but as soon as KG trade went through I would say most Celtic fans were ecstatic right after that trade. Sure it was a little bittersweet because Big Al was a great guy and player. 

[Roy Hobbs]

I don't think that's always the case.  I think in general the younger you are the more hopeful you are with young players and the older you are the more you realize many talented young players don't pan out like Todd Benzinger and Kevin Morton of the Sox and Michael Smith and Kedrick Brown of the Celts.   

I think with Manny the Sox are thinking do they really want to pay  37 year old next year 20 million who is an unhappy camper and there were reports debating Tejeda's real age and some think he was a former steroids user.   I think every situation is different whether you want an older player or a young player with talent.   I think most Sox fans were happy when we got Schilling several years back, happy the sox re-signed Mike Lowell, and with the Celts we are obviously happy with KG and Ray on the wrong side of 30. 

With all due respect, I'd like to correct you. Originally, most Celtics fans were very tepid in their reaction to Ray Allen and KG being dealt here.

I remember after the draft night Ray Allen deal...alot of fans actually had the audacity to say that Ray Allen was washed-up, a has-been and that we were better off with Delonte, our 1st round-draft pick and Wally Sczerbiak (I can't believe that last part.)

And...if that wasn't bad enough...originally fans were split 50/50 on how they felt about Jefferson and Gomes being dealt for KG. 

Now maybe fans are happy we dealt for both players because KG and Ray proved all these fans wrong and won a championship.

But originally it wasn't like that.

I agree on the Ray Allen trade but as soon as KG trade went through I would say most Celtic fans were ecstatic right after that trade. Sure it was a little bittersweet because Big Al was a great guy and player. 

Yeah, as I recall, polls (on Celticsblog and boston.com) showed that most fans were against the KG trade prior to us getting Ray, when it was reported that we'd be giving up Big Al and the #5. 

When we traded for Ray, I think reaction was mixed; some people thought it was pointless, and others thought we got good value.  Most people seemed to think Ray himself wasn't enough, and wanted a follow-up move.

Once the KG trade happened, I'd say people were close to uniformly positive on it.  There were still a very few anti-trade holdouts, but for the most part, reaction was very positive.

As for the question of the thread, I think people like the "next big thing" phenomenon.  They enjoy day-dreaming and thinking about how dominant a team centered around Patrick O'Bryant and Bill Walker is going to be in the future (while, strangely, ignoring the question of whether that youth actually helps the team win now).

[JBcat]

I don't think that's always the case.  I think in general the younger you are the more hopeful you are with young players and the older you are the more you realize many talented young players don't pan out like Todd Benzinger and Kevin Morton of the Sox and Michael Smith and Kedrick Brown of the Celts.   

I think with Manny the Sox are thinking do they really want to pay  37 year old next year 20 million who is an unhappy camper and there were reports debating Tejeda's real age and some think he was a former steroids user.   I think every situation is different whether you want an older player or a young player with talent.   I think most Sox fans were happy when we got Schilling several years back, happy the sox re-signed Mike Lowell, and with the Celts we are obviously happy with KG and Ray on the wrong side of 30. 

With all due respect, I'd like to correct you. Originally, most Celtics fans were very tepid in their reaction to Ray Allen and KG being dealt here.

I remember after the draft night Ray Allen deal...alot of fans actually had the audacity to say that Ray Allen was washed-up, a has-been and that we were better off with Delonte, our 1st round-draft pick and Wally Sczerbiak (I can't believe that last part.)

And...if that wasn't bad enough...originally fans were split 50/50 on how they felt about Jefferson and Gomes being dealt for KG. 

Now maybe fans are happy we dealt for both players because KG and Ray proved all these fans wrong and won a championship.

But originally it wasn't like that.

I agree on the Ray Allen trade but as soon as KG trade went through I would say most Celtic fans were ecstatic right after that trade. Sure it was a little bittersweet because Big Al was a great guy and player. 

Yeah, as I recall, polls (on Celticsblog and boston.com) showed that most fans were against the KG trade prior to us getting Ray, when it was reported that we'd be giving up Big Al and the #5. 

When we traded for Ray, I think reaction was mixed; some people thought it was pointless, and others thought we got good value.  Most people seemed to think Ray himself wasn't enough, and wanted a follow-up move.

Once the KG trade happened, I'd say people were close to uniformly positive on it.  There were still a very few anti-trade holdouts, but for the most part, reaction was very positive.

As for the question of the thread, I think people like the "next big thing" phenomenon.  They enjoy day-dreaming and thinking about how dominant a team centered around Patrick O'Bryant and Bill Walker is going to be in the future (while, strangely, ignoring the question of whether that youth actually helps the team win now).

I see your points however maybe here I was in the minority here but amongst my friends we were stoked when the Ray Allen trade went down first.  I was out in Vegas at the time and remember discussing the trade.  Not only were we getting a future HOF coming off of a career high average of 26.4 PPG despite recent ankle surgery (reports were he would recover just fine) but we also avoided drafting Yi the "chairman" who none of us were crazy about, got rid of Wally, missed a nice player I liked in West but made up for it with the extra 2nd round pick in a deep draft with a player I loved in college BBD, and to boot with our own second round pick we drafted what some had called a West clone in Pruitt (still yet to be determined).  Plus we still held onto the much talked about asset in Ratliff's expiring contract plus a young developing stud in Jefferson.   After a quick evaluation sleeping  on it after a night in Vegas my friends and I were quite positive about the first trade for Ray.  As far as the KG trade yes I was saddened to lose out on Jefferson even Gomes but after 10 seconds I said to myself we just stole  KG and quite possibly have the best threesome in the league who desperately wanted to win.  What had me feeling quite good was that I had a good amount of faith in Rondo with his play during the tail end of the previous season and felt good about our starting 5 overall.   I figured we still had time to figure out our bench. 

Back to my point of this thread though I think it's too general to say we prefer younger players over established veterans especially in the win now mode of Sox fans (well at least previous to 2004) and I think it just depends on the situation and the current makeup of the team.  For example I think most of us here I think are pining for a veteran player like Bonzi Wells to take up the last roster spot on the Celtics team rather than an upside talented guy as we already have a good amount of those.   Plenty of people were critical of the O'Blount signing looking back at the threads and were quite happy to see a veteran like House return.   I think it really just depends on the situation.   With the Sox for example Ellsbury the young guy with the upside is just plain better than the vet Coco is right now so I prefer him(despite his recent slump), many Sox fans would love to see Tek return next year albeit maybe in a somewhat reduced role, and Sox fans loved it when Lowell came back to the Sox.   Back in the early 90's I loved it when we got a vet in John Bagley was never quite enamored with a young player at the time in Brian Shaw.  I thought Dominque Wilkens was a bad signing back in the day so it's not always young verses old when evaluating who you would prefer at least that's what I think.  Again I think the older you are and the more you experience seeing a young guy flop you become more wary if a player with upside like Walker is going to make it although I do really like the kid. 

[CoachBo]

I don't think that's always the case.  I think in general the younger you are the more hopeful you are with young players and the older you are the more you realize many talented young players don't pan out like Todd Benzinger and Kevin Morton of the Sox and Michael Smith and Kedrick Brown of the Celts.   

I think with Manny the Sox are thinking do they really want to pay  37 year old next year 20 million who is an unhappy camper and there were reports debating Tejeda's real age and some think he was a former steroids user.   I think every situation is different whether you want an older player or a young player with talent.   I think most Sox fans were happy when we got Schilling several years back, happy the sox re-signed Mike Lowell, and with the Celts we are obviously happy with KG and Ray on the wrong side of 30. 

With all due respect, I'd like to correct you. Originally, most Celtics fans were very tepid in their reaction to Ray Allen and KG being dealt here.

I remember after the draft night Ray Allen deal...alot of fans actually had the audacity to say that Ray Allen was washed-up, a has-been and that we were better off with Delonte, our 1st round-draft pick and Wally Sczerbiak (I can't believe that last part.)

And...if that wasn't bad enough...originally fans were split 50/50 on how they felt about Jefferson and Gomes being dealt for KG. 

Now maybe fans are happy we dealt for both players because KG and Ray proved all these fans wrong and won a championship.

But originally it wasn't like that.

I agree on the Ray Allen trade but as soon as KG trade went through I would say most Celtic fans were ecstatic right after that trade. Sure it was a little bittersweet because Big Al was a great guy and player. 

Yeah, as I recall, polls (on Celticsblog and boston.com) showed that most fans were against the KG trade prior to us getting Ray, when it was reported that we'd be giving up Big Al and the #5. 

When we traded for Ray, I think reaction was mixed; some people thought it was pointless, and others thought we got good value.  Most people seemed to think Ray himself wasn't enough, and wanted a follow-up move.

Once the KG trade happened, I'd say people were close to uniformly positive on it.  There were still a very few anti-trade holdouts, but for the most part, reaction was very positive.

As for the question of the thread, I think people like the "next big thing" phenomenon.  They enjoy day-dreaming and thinking about how dominant a team centered around Patrick O'Bryant and Bill Walker is going to be in the future (while, strangely, ignoring the question of whether that youth actually helps the team win now).

I agree, Roy. Perhaps some are satisfied with the one title and willing to move on beyond Ray, KG and Pierce already- although I can't see a future with some of these bargain-basement acquisitions.

Interesting, though, the enthusiasm that surrounds a totally unproven and unaccomplished commodity such as the players you name - contrasted against all the negativity surrounding James Posey. You would have thought Posey was a hanger-on who contributed little to last year's club from reading this board pre-signing with N.O.

That's the hard thing to understand: How people fall in love with a player like the Savant or O'Blount who've done absolutely nothing at ANY level while working so hard to depricate a proven winner like Posey.

[klg05]

I don't think that's always the case.  I think in general the younger you are the more hopeful you are with young players and the older you are the more you realize many talented young players don't pan out like Todd Benzinger and Kevin Morton of the Sox and Michael Smith and Kedrick Brown of the Celts.   

I think with Manny the Sox are thinking do they really want to pay  37 year old next year 20 million who is an unhappy camper and there were reports debating Tejeda's real age and some think he was a former steroids user.   I think every situation is different whether you want an older player or a young player with talent.   I think most Sox fans were happy when we got Schilling several years back, happy the sox re-signed Mike Lowell, and with the Celts we are obviously happy with KG and Ray on the wrong side of 30. 

With all due respect, I'd like to correct you. Originally, most Celtics fans were very tepid in their reaction to Ray Allen and KG being dealt here.

I remember after the draft night Ray Allen deal...alot of fans actually had the audacity to say that Ray Allen was washed-up, a has-been and that we were better off with Delonte, our 1st round-draft pick and Wally Sczerbiak (I can't believe that last part.)

And...if that wasn't bad enough...originally fans were split 50/50 on how they felt about Jefferson and Gomes being dealt for KG. 

Now maybe fans are happy we dealt for both players because KG and Ray proved all these fans wrong and won a championship.

But originally it wasn't like that.

I agree on the Ray Allen trade but as soon as KG trade went through I would say most Celtic fans were ecstatic right after that trade. Sure it was a little bittersweet because Big Al was a great guy and player. 

Yeah, as I recall, polls (on Celticsblog and boston.com) showed that most fans were against the KG trade prior to us getting Ray, when it was reported that we'd be giving up Big Al and the #5. 

When we traded for Ray, I think reaction was mixed; some people thought it was pointless, and others thought we got good value.  Most people seemed to think Ray himself wasn't enough, and wanted a follow-up move.

Once the KG trade happened, I'd say people were close to uniformly positive on it.  There were still a very few anti-trade holdouts, but for the most part, reaction was very positive.

As for the question of the thread, I think people like the "next big thing" phenomenon.  They enjoy day-dreaming and thinking about how dominant a team centered around Patrick O'Bryant and Bill Walker is going to be in the future (while, strangely, ignoring the question of whether that youth actually helps the team win now).

I agree, Roy. Perhaps some are satisfied with the one title and willing to move on beyond Ray, KG and Pierce already- although I can't see a future with some of these bargain-basement acquisitions.

Interesting, though, the enthusiasm that surrounds a totally unproven and unaccomplished commodity such as the players you name - contrasted against all the negativity surrounding James Posey. You would have thought Posey was a hanger-on who contributed little to last year's club from reading this board pre-signing with N.O.

That's the hard thing to understand: How people fall in love with a player like the Savant or O'Blount who've done absolutely nothing at ANY level while working so hard to depricate a proven winner like Posey.

I don't recall people on this board depricating James Posey or insinuating that he was  a "hanger-on who contributed little to last year's club".  I think the majority of the people here were devastated about losing Posey and the ones who were not were only concerned about paying him for a fourth year. James Posey was obviously a very important cog in the wheel that was the Championship Celtics Team and he will be dearly missed.

[CoachBo]

You missed several threads, then.

[winsomme]

Reading the Manny to Dodgers thread was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Fans posting that Matt Kemp and some other prospects I've never heard of would be appropriate replacements for Manny.

Another thread regarding the Tejada to Sox rumor included a post by a fan saying something similar like "oh Tejada is old..why would we want him?"
In other words, because Tejada isn't young with potential, the fan trashed Tejada.

Are you kidding me?  People, just because someone is young with potential doesn't make them a great player.

My five year old niece is young and has potential..doesn't mean she's going to be a great sports player.

I read alot of other threads on this site (and other websites) and I just scratch my head. Alot of times I get the feeling that most Boston sport fans care moe about having a PG-13 sports team than a team that wins.

i like young prospects as much as anybody, but i have to agree that the crowd of people WANTING to trade Manny  for prospects is making little sense.....especially when sluggers is the one thing you really don't have coming up through your system.

and they all roll their collective eyes when you mention Manny being oh i don't know basically one of the best hitters of all time.....you know when someone does that it's pointless debating with them.

there is something about Theo et al that i'm not crazy about......they are heading this team towards one with almost NO personality. they want guys that fit their statistical goals but IMO don't have qualities that go above and beyond averages, etc...anything unpredictable bothers them....i think they would be happy with a team of robots.

the fact that they get so bent out of shape because Manny takes a few games off a year that he probably shouldn't or doesn't run out a ground ball every once in a while is absurd.

i also think they don't understand:

A) how hard it is to get a power hitter on the order of Manny.

B) how important the combo of Papi and Manny is to this team.

i'm not crazy about everything Manny does. in fact, the shoving of the front office guy may have been the lowlight for me (although i don't really feel like i know what happened there), and the Youk thing was bothersome too....but all things considered, i think you need PERSONALITIES on teams. it's part of embracing a team....for me it is, anyway.

these whisper campaigns that this front office engages in bother me too. do they really need to do that stuff?