Author Topic: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?  (Read 7184 times)

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Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« on: July 17, 2008, 09:30:20 PM »

Offline RealTangiblesGuy

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I briefly interrupt this free agent love fest for the following:  We spend a lot of time talking about defensive capabilities and intangibles and the like, but rarely have I seen a full on discussion about who the best offensive player in the NBA is.  Let that discussion begin.  This graph is a eFG% vs. PPG graph for prolific scorers in the NBA.  Average values are denoted by the red lines.  The data was pulled from Basketball-Reference and the players to appear were selected by me (there is selection bias).  I tried to pick a balance of players from teams.  I picked only players with PPG over 17 (with one exception, Steve Nash).  For most of these players, it cannot be argued that they do not have the ability to create their own shot.  Teams rely on each of these players for major offensive production.

I feel that an offensive player should be able to produce big time points but should do it effectively.  Although eFG% is an excellent way to measure a player's offensive efficiency, it is not perfect.  One problem is that it misrepresents players who are intentionally fouled due to low FT %.  For example, Dwight Howard's eFG% would probably be a heck of a lot higher if he could hit 85% from the line as teams would be more willing to let him get a shot close to the basket.  Currently, teams do anything in their power to foul him before his extremely high % shots.  Same thing with Shaq throughout his career.  Many Shaq dunks were avoided by fouling.  eFG% does not do favor to these guys.  However, one can argue that poor FT% should also be included in any measure of offensive efficiency, and so I have tried to include that in the concept of "Posessions" (as you'll see).  Another problem with eFG% is that players who turn the ball over a ton on the way to effective offensive production (step forward, D. Wade) are overrated.

To rectify this and other similar problems, I pulled something out of my ass that I like to call "Possessions."  This is basically FGA + FTA/2 + TOV (all numbers per game).  In my mind, it represents possessions used by each player in order to generate his production.  I know there are some problems with this.  First, point guards (and others) who have as a major part of their duty distributing the ball will have higher TOV.  Second, players who get many And-1's will actually be using fewer possessions than this number indicates.  Furthermore, players shooting many technical freethrows will not be rated appropriately.  However, it does provide some interesting information (ex. although Jefferson/Yao seem to be more effective in the post than Duncan, they also use more possessions to get their work done).



Alright, so here's what I think I learned after making this:

Our own big 3 are very effective with respect to both eFG% and "Possessions."  Furthermore, Ray Allen and KG had two of the lowest TOV/game of any of the players I looked at.

Using this, I believe a stronger case can be made for Amare as the premier offensive player in the NBA than for any other player.  Amare's possessions were exactly on the border of yellow/red but I put the cutoff after him due to the And-1 bias I discussed earlier.

In the case of Iverson/Anthony, it seems very obvious that shots should be transferred to Anthony--he has a much higher eFG% than Iverson and can create his own shot.

Despite all the talk about how Al Jefferson was not enough to be the centerpiece of a trade for Garnett, his offensive production seems to be almost exactly the same as that of Yao.  I don't know how far apart they are defensively but do know that both have a reputation for poor defense.  Given that, would anyone protest if Yao was the focal point of a trade platter for KG??  So why do people argue about Big Al?

This graph makes Mike Dunleavy look great.  It seems he may be severely underrated with respect to his offensive abilities.


Steve Nash is absolutely ridiculously amazing.  Despite his reputation as a high-turnover PG, he is extremely effective offensively.  I was so shocked by this that I looked up his career eFG%.  Guess what?  This is not an outlier.  I think the Sixers may have been much better off making him the first pick of the 96 draft.

Kobe is below average with respect to eFG% (no excuses this year for poor teammates, please).  He also used a high number of possessions, for what its worth.

Bosh is a yellow dot among a sea of red ones.  If you subscribe to "Possessions," this means he is much more effective at scoring than his eFG% would have us believe.

Gordon seems better than Deng offensively, despite accusations that he's just another undependable jump shooter.

Both Deng and Josh Smith (highly touted RFA) are poor in terms of offensive production.

This adds another exhibit to the "Kevin Durant Sucks" stack of evidence.  I was quite tempted to promptly break all the above guidelines of player selection in order to add Al Horford.

Another interesting tidbit: Mr. Vinsanity and R-Jeff had nearly the same eFG%.  Now I'm pretty sure this wasn't due to planning, but it seems that major offensive players on the same team should reallocate shots until they have the same eFG% in order to gain maximum effectiveness (you listening, George Karl?  How about you, SVG?)

Alright, one last note:  I'm very open to criticism and promise I'll try my best to not get defensive unnecessarily.  Let me know if you have any suggestions, questions, would like to see the raw numbers, want me to add a player or think I should remove a player, etc.   Also I enjoy doing stuff like this so let me know if there's some other data you'd like to see.  Right now, I'm thinking of doing something with the idea of consistency (which players vary the most from game to game and which are more dependable) and would appreciate any ideas or thoughts with regard to this.

Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 09:38:36 PM »

Offline Reyquila

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Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 09:40:00 PM »

Offline Redz

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First off, nice work on the research. 

I think you're looking at the Most Efficient Offensive Player more so than the "best", though it seems part of your argument is that the most efficient is the best.  Efficiency is definitely a less subjective way of rating offensive prowess, but if we're looking for the "best" offensive player in the league I'm throwing objectivity, efficiency, and whatever else out the window and submitting Kobe as my answer to your question.  Even though the Celts proved he can be contained, the guys the best in the league offensively. IMO.
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Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 09:43:21 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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I think the best line I ever heard concerning the use of statistics was this one. If you have your head in an oven and your axx in a freezer, on average, you are doing pretty well.

Man, you are trying too hard to build a better mousetrap, as the expression goes. As much as I hate him, Kobe, is the best offensive player in the NBA with Lebron a very, very close second.

Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 09:47:46 PM »

Offline RealTangiblesGuy

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First off, nice work on the research. 

I think you're looking at the Most Efficient Offensive Player more so than the "best", though it seems part of your argument is that the most efficient is the best.  Efficiency is definitely a less subjective way of rating offensive prowess, but if we're looking for the "best" offensive player in the league I'm throwing objectivity, efficiency, and whatever else out the window and submitting Kobe as my answer to your question.  Even though the Celts proved he can be contained, the guys the best in the league offensively. IMO.

Yes, part of my argument is that the Most Efficient should be called the "best." With respect to Kobe, he does display the widest arsenal of offensive tools during NBA games than any other current player (this seems beyond debate, IMO).  However, I believe that Pierce (or others) can (and do) execute these moves when they are not playing in an actual NBA game.  They just know it's not the most effective way to score on the court and so don't bust out the complete arsenal of tools during games; instead, they only use their most effective weapons.

Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 09:52:24 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Excellent work, very interesting reading. TP.

I have a couple of (very) minor caveats:
- I don't think your work answers the question of who is the best offensive player in the NBA. Maybe the "best scorer". 
- not all of those players can create their own shot, at least at the same rate. For example, Dunleavy (who probably should have won the MIP award last season) is not comparable to a guy like LeBron.
- players are not in comparable situations. For example, there's a degree of unfairness in criticizing Durant - he was the only decent offensive player in his team, the only able to create his shot. Players from San Antonio/Boston/LA/Phoenix/etc. are in a much better situation to be efficient.
- and Yao is a way better defender than Al.

And a question: why have you used %eFG instead of TS%? Do the results vary much if you use TS%? Also, are the ppg pace adjusted? If they aren't, wouldn't it be an interesting data to work?

Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 10:03:45 PM »

Offline Reyquila

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Kobe is the best offensive player in the league. Remember that evn though he scores a lot; he tries to get everybody else involved first and then takes over offensively if he sees the rest of the team isnt having it done. Ive never seen a player (besides M. JordanJ)take over a game when it needs it to be done. he can shoot it from way away or drive to the basket almost at will. You have to give him his due. The league did it this year. In rating an offensive player you also have to give equal consideration to his assists. Each assist is one less chance of that player scoring a basket, but he made it possible for a basket to be scored. he should be rewarded then for his degree of offensive quality. After all, the only purpose of the game is for your team to score more points than the opposition.
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Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 10:15:36 PM »

Offline Tw1x990

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see kevin martin. maybe not the best but he doesnt get enough love...

Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 10:21:56 PM »

Offline Edgar

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the best scorer is kobe, the best offensive player is paul pierce
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Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 10:56:50 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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That's really neat. Impressive work. It's neat to see it graphed out on points vs. efficiency. TP definitely.

You could try it using "True Shooting Percentage" instead of eFG, since TSP accounts for foul shots and foul shot percentages.

It's true that having a way to account for assists would help, since recording assists is a measure of offensive prowess. Your chart, I agree, is a great example of scoring. This would bump Lebron and Nash up towards the Amare quadrant, since Nash gets a ton of assists and Lebron gets a lot of assists relative to his scoring. Chris Paul would get bumped way up as well.

I love those that stubbornly assume that kobe's greatness is undebatable. It's more than debateable. He was the 3rd best offensive force in the league last year, with Lebron and Chris Paul clearly outclassing him. Seriously, go look and compare the three. No B.S. about team success or teammates needed; kobe's the exact player he's been for the past few years, he just had better teammates this year, hence a better team record. He didn't change a thing.

Look at Chris Paul: better in everything except blocks, points, and rebounds, meaning he shot better from EVERYWHERE on the floor, had MORE THAN TWICE as many assists and still had FEWER turnovers.

Lebron, meanwhile, outscored, outrebounded, and out assisted Kobe, and shot better from the field overall.

People just like claiming kobe is irrefutably the best offensive player because it's the easy cliched thing to do, and because his game is the one most closely resembling MJ's in style. People give him points because he gets it done by being "smooth" and "skilled," while Paul gets docked for being a PG instead of a SG like MJ, and Lebron gets docked because there's a perception that he gets his superior production through being an athletic freak and not getting his points "skillfully."

And i can't stand all the "teammate" excuses for kobe last year, lebron has taken way worse teams further than kobe has or could. Kobe on cleveland does not get past detroit last year, and frankly i'd have been more scared of a Fisher, Ariza/Vujacic, Lebron, Odom, Gasol lineup than the one we saw in the finals.

As an aside, this same argument has upset me since the '00 lakers dynasty, when people would claim that Shaq was the most dominant player in the NBA but Kobe was the best. Ummm, most dominant=most effective=best. To do what shaq could at his size is an incredible athletic achievement, but there was a perception that somehow shaq had no skill and didn't have to work for his on the court results, so people just couldn't bring themselves to admit he was the best player in the nba, there was always a caveat.

Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 11:00:13 PM »

Offline Chief

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the best scorer is kobe, the best offensive player is paul pierce

Chris Paul might be the best offensive player, if you look at all aspects of offensive basketball. If you want someone that can only score, I like Carmello Anthony.
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Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2008, 11:08:40 PM »

Offline RealTangiblesGuy

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Excellent work, very interesting reading. TP.

I have a couple of (very) minor caveats:
- I don't think your work answers the question of who is the best offensive player in the NBA. Maybe the "best scorer". 
- not all of those players can create their own shot, at least at the same rate. For example, Dunleavy (who probably should have won the MIP award last season) is not comparable to a guy like LeBron.
- players are not in comparable situations. For example, there's a degree of unfairness in criticizing Durant - he was the only decent offensive player in his team, the only able to create his shot. Players from San Antonio/Boston/LA/Phoenix/etc. are in a much better situation to be efficient.
- and Yao is a way better defender than Al.

And a question: why have you used %eFG instead of TS%? Do the results vary much if you use TS%? Also, are the ppg pace adjusted? If they aren't, wouldn't it be an interesting data to work?

-I agree.  In hindsight, I should have called it best scorer instead of best offensive player because offensive player implies ability to create for teammates, etc.  Also, the entire post would probably have made more sense if it were titled something like "Prolific Scorers"  Is it possible to change the title?
-I'm not sure what you mean.  Their FGA's are only 8.3 apart and I would think Dunleavy could probably create an additional 8 shots per game at about the same efficiency.  I'm afraid I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here, though.  Maybe you are referring to the defensive attention each faces?  If that is the case, then I agree that the graph doesn't (and wasn't meant to) be the "end all be all."  It must be accompanied by discussion, of course. 
-I agree again and discussion is required to account for this.  However, some players are in similar situations and can be compared directly using the graph: (i.e. Steve Nash vs. D-Will vs. C. Paul)
-I'll take your word for it since I have barely ever seen Yao play.  But I sure wish people (Hardwood Paroxysm, for one) would stop acting like Al Jefferson is a joke.  The man can produce.

I picked eFG% due to personal bias, pretty much.  I'm not a big fan of Hollinger stats because to me, they seem pretty contrived.  It would be interesting to see what using TS% changes and I'll look at that and post here soon (a day or two).

Kobe is the best offensive player in the league. Remember that evn though he scores a lot; he tries to get everybody else involved first and then takes over offensively if he sees the rest of the team isnt having it done. Ive never seen a player (besides M. JordanJ)take over a game when it needs it to be done. he can shoot it from way away or drive to the basket almost at will. You have to give him his due. The league did it this year. In rating an offensive player you also have to give equal consideration to his assists. Each assist is one less chance of that player scoring a basket, but he made it possible for a basket to be scored. he should be rewarded then for his degree of offensive quality. After all, the only purpose of the game is for your team to score more points than the opposition.

I'm not trying to disrespect Kobe.  I do feel that his offensive prowess is overrated.  A lot of players included do the things you say about Kobe: try to get everyone else involve and take over offensively during times of offensive drought.  I don't think Kobe can take it to the basket "almost at will."  The Finals proved that this is hardly the case.  In fact, both Kobe and Lebron faced the same defensive within a 4 week period this year and it became quite clear to me that Lebron is at a much higher level than Kobe when it comes to taking it to the hole. 

I agree with you that this does not represent "offensive ability" as that should include assists.  However, even if we consider assists and getting teammates involved, wouldn't you have to rate players like Steve Nash, Paul Pierce, Chris Paul, and LBJ over him?? They score more effectively, there is little reason to believe they could not take more shots at approx. the same eFG%, they all face defensive geared towards them nightly (maybe not Pierce anymore). 

I give Kobe his due.  He is a breathtaking talent, entertaining to watch (both due to his moves and his antics), has achieved many milestones, and is a very respected player (in terms of his talent, not in terms of his personality) in the NBA.  However, I disagree that he is the best scorer currently.  Or the best offensive player.   

Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2008, 12:04:14 AM »

Offline celticsfan8591

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I think that the best overall offensive player is Steve Nash.  He gets everyone else open shots, and he himself is a great shooter, both from outside and from the line.  The best scorer IMO is Kobe because he can score in every way imaginable, whereas LeBron sometimes struggles shooting the ball.

Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2008, 01:17:15 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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You can make statistics do whatever you want them to do.
Not if you use and read them properly. Believe it or not, people spend years in graduate school learning to do exactly that.

It's the same as saying the scalpel is useless, because it's not more useful to the local butcher than a simple cleaver.
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Re: Who is the best offensive player in the NBA?
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2008, 01:21:50 PM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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Stats smats! My eyes tell me Scal is the best offensive player in the NBA.


Oh you meant "offensive" like scoring points. i thought you meant like it soffensive that he's a player in the NBA :P