Author Topic: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?  (Read 14459 times)

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Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2008, 01:01:04 AM »

Offline jdub1660

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I can't see this happening at all. There's NO WAY Paxson would give up both young stars for one aged star. I still say keep the Big 3 together this year and see what happens. Next year when Allen is a big expiring contract, we could look at trading him for younger talents.
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Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2008, 01:15:24 AM »

Offline lon3lytoaster

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Deng isn't happening, people need to accept that fact.

1) Deng is Chicago's top priority, they have a glut of guards, but only really have Deng or Nocioni as starting forwards, and Nocioni is a stretch.

2) If you make the deal for Deng, then Pierce becomes this teams' spot up shooter because Deng doesn't have a good enough outside game. Problem is, Deng doesn't have the midrange game that Pierce has either, so an offense that wasn't spectacular to begin with is further hampered. We're better off taking Gordon, who has lower value but is a better fit, and getting another productive player. We would be worse off in a Deng/Allen swap because Luol and Pierce don't mesh well.

3) Chicago wouldn't consider Deng for Allen because they're rebuilding, and Deng is a significant piece of the equation.

Not that I think this will happen but if Deng doesn't want to play for Chicago anymore (Because the ownership is trying to screw him out of money, and he's being disrespected with them offering LESS money this year) then there isn't much they can do about keeping him. So instead of losing him for nothing getting a huge expiring contract (Next year) who is still a useful player and then still maybe picks and someone like Giddens? You don't offer that as a GM first of all, and if one was to and someone passed it up they should be fired on the spot.

Again, I don't see it happening but in a sign and trade it's up to Deng and Danny/Wyc if he came here. He could easily refuse to sign a qualifying offer then they lose him for nothing, or he could say "Hey, I want to go to Boston and you'll lose me for nothing otherwise." and then Chicago's hand is forced.

Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2008, 04:35:51 AM »

Offline bogg

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Catch 22 ... Gordon is NOT good enough to warrant a Ray Allen deal AND Nocioni is overpaid for a long period of time.  He isn't additive in that deal. Ben Gordon is an adequate defender unless you take a look at him with guys with length.  Take a look at the matchups with the top teams.  He's a good scorer, but a terrible matchup against most of the top threats for the title.

The question isn't how they compare as individual players, but rather how they fit into the catch and shoot role as the third option in the offense, and what we could get in return to bridge the talent gap between the two. Gordon would do an excellent job spreading the floor and wouldn't be as much of a concern to pound the ball and stall the offense, as Allen is sometimes prone to doing. I'll grant that Gordon is a poor matchup against top tier shooting guards in the league, but Ray is by no means a good defender. Nocioni, additionally, would be an excellent 6th man on this roster and a significant defensive upgrade over what we have coming off the bench against standard small forwards and the quick power forwards.

I don't think that this is a home-run deal, but with the salaries looking to be about a wash, the question is does adding Gordon and Nocioni in place of Allen improve the team? I don't feel that it's likely the drop in talent from Allen to Gordon is going to outweigh than the benefit of having Nocioni coming off the bench as our reserve 3 as opposed to TA or one of the rookies. This is just something I brought up for discussion, as I think it's an intriguing idea at the very least.

If the Bulls got rid of a terrible deal in Hughes, they have Nocioni/Sefolosha  at the SF and Allen/Gordon at the SG.  Not exactly a glut there UNLESS you are going to point to Hinrich as a SG.

I'm going to point to the Bulls having expressed interest in moving Gordon and not Deng in a sign and trade, and our inability to force them to do something they don't want to do. Gordon is a guy they like but can do without, Deng is someone they want to build around, just not at max money(rightfully so, his ceiling is decent sidekick). As such, Gordon's asking price will be much lower, which is convenient when your offer consists almost solely of a 33 year old shooting guard with bad ankles. Allen isn't getting it done in a Deng deal, so argue it all you want, but the Bulls will package him for another young semi-star if they move him at all, not as sweetener to get rid of bad contracts for salary space.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 04:41:25 AM by bogg »

Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2008, 08:04:35 AM »

Offline timepiece33

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The question isn't how they compare as individual players, but rather how they fit into the catch and shoot role as the third option in the offense, and what we could get in return to bridge the talent gap between the two. Gordon would do an excellent job spreading the floor and wouldn't be as much of a concern to pound the ball and stall the offense, as Allen is sometimes prone to doing. I'll grant that Gordon is a poor matchup against top tier shooting guards in the league, but Ray is by no means a good defender.

Comparing the ramifications on both sides of the floor is necessary and personally I feel you are understating the impact. 

Ray Allen played well defensively in the playoffs and did a good job. He is a little undersized for my taste, but Ben Gordon is appreciably worse AND has a history of getting torched by the teams that we would be going against in the playoffs.  Is that not a consideration?

I'd also argue that Allen also brings ball handling skills and finishing skills that are superior and necessary for a team that has Eddie House as their primary backup at the PG position.

Nocioni is a solid, albeit well overpaid for a very long time, 6th man.   

I'm going to point to the Bulls having expressed interest in moving Gordon and not Deng in a sign and trade, and our inability to force them to do something they don't want to do.

I'm going to point to no rumors about Ray Allen being traded (outside of this board) as the Celtics having no interest in trading Allen.   Last time I checked, the Bulls ended up with the #1 pick and the Celtics ended up with the last pick.   

I'll state it again.  Ben Gordon does not have the value of Ray Allen and I would not do a deal with him as the principal part of the deal regardless of whether they deal Deng or not.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 08:21:40 AM by timepiece33 »

Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2008, 08:50:04 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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Deng isn't happening, people need to accept that fact.

1) Deng is Chicago's top priority, they have a glut of guards, but only really have Deng or Nocioni as starting forwards, and Nocioni is a stretch.

2) If you make the deal for Deng, then Pierce becomes this teams' spot up shooter because Deng doesn't have a good enough outside game. Problem is, Deng doesn't have the midrange game that Pierce has either, so an offense that wasn't spectacular to begin with is further hampered. We're better off taking Gordon, who has lower value but is a better fit, and getting another productive player. We would be worse off in a Deng/Allen swap because Luol and Pierce don't mesh well.

3) Chicago wouldn't consider Deng for Allen because they're rebuilding, and Deng is a significant piece of the equation.

Agreed. 

This is not a good deal for the Celtics because Pierce and Deng are not a good match, unless Deng agrees to come off the bench or Pierce plays the 2 (and Pierce is not as effective at the 2 and a worse defender at that position as well).
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2008, 08:47:27 PM »

Offline bogg

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Comparing the ramifications on both sides of the floor is necessary and personally I feel you are understating the impact. 

Ray Allen played well defensively in the playoffs and did a good job. He is a little undersized for my taste, but Ben Gordon is appreciably worse AND has a history of getting torched by the teams that we would be going against in the playoffs.  Is that not a consideration?

I'd also argue that Allen also brings ball handling skills and finishing skills that are superior and necessary for a team that has Eddie House as their primary backup at the PG position.

Nocioni is a solid, albeit well overpaid for a very long time, 6th man.
   

Allen did well defensively against Kobe and that's it. Joe Johnson repeatedly took it to him in Atlanta's wins and Rip Hamilton was easily the Pistons' best player in the ECF. This has nothing to do with his offensive struggles either, he's not a good defender. He's absolutely better than Ben Gordon, but it isn't like we're downgrading from a position of strength to a position of weakness, we're going from bad to worse. I'm fully aware of the impact there, but I think you're overestimating Allen's defensive ability.

Nocioni is a significant upgrade at reserve swingman, where we currently either have TA playing out of position(he's smaller than Allen) or Giddens(undersized, out of position) or Bill Walker(coming back from another knee injury) playing as untested and unheralded rookies. My contention is that the impact of going from Allen to Gordon(who should be able to do a reasonable impression of Allen) in the starting lineup will be outweighed by the benefit of adding Nocioni to the bench to plug a significant hole.


I'm going to point to no rumors about Ray Allen being traded (outside of this board) as the Celtics having no interest in trading Allen.   Last time I checked, the Bulls ended up with the #1 pick and the Celtics ended up with the last pick.   

I'll state it again.  Ben Gordon does not have the value of Ray Allen and I would not do a deal with him as the principal part of the deal regardless of whether they deal Deng or not.

Ainge is on the record somewhere(admittedly, I forget exactly where) saying that he isn't going to repeat the mistakes of the 80's team, where the core was held onto for far too long, ensuring the franchise had to go through complete rebuilding. Garnett and Pierce are the only irreplaceable players on the roster, and the two guys the teams' truly built around. Seeing as Allen is going to soon be a (hopefully) productive big name on an expiring deal very soon, it's only logical to conclude that Danny will field offers for him in order to restock the team and extend our window for championships.

This isn't a deal built to get Ben Gordon, it's a deal to improve the team. Gordon should be able to slide into Allen's role in the starting lineup very well, while Nocioni vastly improves our bench. Also, and very significantly, this move would still leave us half the mid-level and a roster spot to pursue a veteran big man, be it Mourning, Mutombo, or whoever else Danny likes. We currently have two major holes, backup 3 and veteran big man, with only a little money and one roster spot.

Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2008, 10:03:47 PM »

Offline timepiece33

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I'm fully aware of the impact there, but I think you're overestimating Allen's defensive ability.

IMO, you aren't fully aware or you wouldn't be bringing it up as a good idea. 

If you consider Allen a poor defender, what is Ben Gordon.  Using those parameters, Ben Gordon is a joke defensively against bigger players.

Don't get me wrong.  He's an outstanding 6th man or SG for a team that has a big PG.   We aren't one. 

You can minimize Allen's defense all you want.  IMO, the difference between Allen and Gordon defensively against bigger players is quite large.   

Nocioni is a significant upgrade at reserve swingman, where we currently either have TA playing out of position(he's smaller than Allen) or Giddens(undersized, out of position) or Bill Walker(coming back from another knee injury) playing as untested and unheralded rookies. My contention is that the impact of going from Allen to Gordon(who should be able to do a reasonable impression of Allen) in the starting lineup will be outweighed by the benefit of adding Nocioni to the bench to plug a significant hole.

My contention is the 5 years to Nocioni is a negative.   I'd rather go after someone with the MLE next year.   
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 10:21:01 PM by timepiece33 »

Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2008, 11:14:01 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Nocioni is a significant upgrade at reserve swingman, where we currently either have TA playing out of position(he's smaller than Allen) or Giddens(undersized, out of position) or Bill Walker(coming back from another knee injury) playing as untested and unheralded rookies. My contention is that the impact of going from Allen to Gordon(who should be able to do a reasonable impression of Allen) in the starting lineup will be outweighed by the benefit of adding Nocioni to the bench to plug a significant hole.


  So we'll be worse at one spot for 38 minutes a game to get better at another spot for 10 minutes a game?

Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2008, 02:26:52 AM »

Offline bogg

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IMO, you aren't fully aware or you wouldn't be bringing it up as a good idea. 

If you consider Allen a poor defender, what is Ben Gordon.

Worse
 

Using those parameters, Ben Gordon is a joke defensively against bigger players.

Don't get me wrong.  He's an outstanding 6th man or SG for a team that has a big PG.   We aren't one. 

You can minimize Allen's defense all you want.  IMO, the difference between Allen and Gordon defensively against bigger players is quite large.

Allen has an advantage over Gordon when larger shooting guards look to post up, but neither are good on the perimeter. Considering that the rest of the starting lineup ranges from good to outstanding defensively, and that we're possibly the best rotating team in the league, and you can hide one bad defender. Teams aren't going to be able to run post plays for their shooting guard over and over again and expect a high level of success against this Celtics team.   


My contention is the 5 years to Nocioni is a negative.   I'd rather go after someone with the MLE next year.

Nocioni has 4 years on his deal, and in reality it's a non-issue. His contract, like Hinrich's, was frontloaded by Chicago, meaning over the last two years of his deal there will be little difference between his contract and a MLE deal signed next summer, and the last year will likely be cheaper(I don't have the exact figures for the two in front of me, but they'll be very similar). You're highly unlikely to get anybody better than him for the mid-level, and the last three years of his deal will be basically the same total value as a three year MLE deal next summer, just structured in reverse.

Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2008, 02:34:56 AM »

Offline bogg

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So we'll be worse at one spot for 38 minutes a game to get better at another spot for 10 minutes a game?

Not at all. Posey averaged 25 minutes a game last season as the 6th man, and Nocioni should get all of that, if not more. Ray played 36 a game last year and that number will likely come down as he ages. Offensively we'll be improved, as Gordon should be able to fill in for Allen fine and Nocioni is a large upgrade over Bill Walker, TA, or whoever else Doc plays at the 3. Defensively Gordon is a downgrade from an already shaky Allen, but we get much better defensive help off the bench with Nocioni instead of rookies and undersized guards playing forward. Additionally, it's reasonable to suspect that Gordon will catch up to Allen in overall ability as soon as the 2009-2010 or 2010-2011 season.

Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2008, 04:06:05 AM »

Offline ChrisjGotti

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this is not good ideal. lets not trade ray allen. hes like bird on shooting wise. but u cant compare the2. i just wanna say, lets just have him go all the way with the other 2 together intell they are done playing with the celtics. cuz if u have him trade, thats it for celtics, he a differnce maker on the team. when one fly's the other 2 dont do so well.

Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2008, 07:32:44 AM »

Offline timepiece33

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This is simply a bad idea. 

Offensively ... Ben Gordon is a catch and shoot guy with average ability to drive to the basket (if that).  Somehow that limitation is now being called an offensive improvement?  In addition, saying he will be "worse" defensively is way underestimating the reality of his defensive ineptitude.  Ray Allen put up defensive rating and win share numbers that dwarf Gordon.  He's proven he can play within this system and be very effective despite your attempts to minimize it.

Nocioni isn't worth his current contract.  The Bulls have tried to unload him on the Nets and the Grizzlies since signing him.   IMO, you can get someone with the MLE that is better next year.

Re: Ray Allen to Chicago idea?
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2008, 01:06:38 PM »

Offline Sweet17

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Gordon is underrated by some folks - but still your getting 200% of Eddie House at 10x the salary . I will pass. Deng is COLLOSALLY overrated IMHO. He is far too poor an offensive player to be worth a Ray Allen. Fans put too much emphasis on youth. You have to think of guys value during the life of his contract.

Pete