african american coaches

[Induna]

just wanted to give you guys kudos for this thread. I am a black African grew up in Aparthied so racism and it's effects have been part of my life pretty much ever since I can remember.

It is good to see people able to discuss the subject so calmly without the usual emotional outbursts or dishonesty that is often involved. It is very refreshing.

I am amazed at that picture - I had never seen it before. It's amazing how someone can do his country and flag such a dishonour while probably thinking he was doing the opposite!

As for black coaches I think we have come a long way - not once did I hear Doc spoken about as a black coach - just a coach who went head to head with one of the all time greats and out coached him.

[houlana]

so basically what u guys are saying is that the race issue was more about the city and not the team.

that said, it is pritty ammazing how celtics teams of the past were able to break so many barriers in terms of basketball while playing in boston.

please share your thoughts on that

[billysan]

so basically what u guys are saying is that the race issue was more about the city and not the team.

that said, it is pritty ammazing how celtics teams of the past were able to break so many barriers in terms of basketball while playing in boston.

please share your thoughts on that

What I am saying is that the racism issues in Boston in the 60's and 70's are not the same as they are today. To dwell on issues from 40 years ago is a waste of time IMO if they are no longer relevant. Not to say that there isnt still some racist behaviour,(there always will be) but it just isnt the same.

Red never allowed racist behaviour by anyone, black or white, on his team. Russell was outspoken and he needed to be at the time, because he was the team spokesman for blacks and whites. I am sure he would tell you that the reputation Boston earned then is not the same today.

People carrying around a 'perception' of Boston from 40 years ago clearly are either living in the past or just havent been to the city in a while. The same goes for many cities I guess.

[houlana]

i certainly dont dwell what happend forty yrs ago.
i just started this thread because i believe that this franchise deserves more appreciation which it has not gotten for the many barriers they broke in the past.
these should be noted by the national media, instead of just being blamed for the problems the CITY had in the past.

[houlana]

when tony Dungy won the superbowl, it was a huge deal, and well deserved.

the celtics having three african american coaches winning a championship was not even a point that was brought up.
i just feel that it should be recognized as a big accomplishment, added to the many that this franchise has in its long history.

[cdif911]

when tony Dungy won the superbowl, it was a huge deal, and well deserved.

the celtics having three african american coaches winning a championship was not even a point that was brought up.
i just feel that it should be recognized as a big accomplishment, added to the many that this franchise has in its long history.

in some ways it shows us how far we have come to NOT have to mention it.  A colorblind world would be so ideal

[thedawg]

just to create an interesting diccussion.

before KG arrived in Boston, people were saying that he would not come here because boston is a racist city.
i have only been living in boston for 9 yrs now, so i dont know what reasons they have for saying that.

but from the 5 african american coaches to win a championship, the celtics have 3 of them,

Bill russell, KC jones, and now doc rivers.

other 2 would be: Lenny Wilkins (Seattle Supersonics), and Al Attles (Golden State Warriors).

i think i also remember from prior discussions someone saying that the celts were the first to have all black starting five, and also our current team is mostly african american players.

so on what grounds are people saying, to what seems to me, are foolish statements

You really dont have to say anything today to be called a racist.  This is a sick world we are living in but this is a good point you pointed out there. 

[SShoreFan 2.0]

when tony Dungy won the superbowl, it was a huge deal, and well deserved.

the celtics having three african american coaches winning a championship was not even a point that was brought up.
i just feel that it should be recognized as a big accomplishment, added to the many that this franchise has in its long history.

in some ways it shows us how far we have come to NOT have to mention it.  A colorblind world would be so ideal

An



And a

[cdif911]

You really dont have to say anything today to be called a racist.  This is a sick world we are living in but this is a good point you pointed out there. 

Its a heck of a lot better of a world than 60 years ago, when America had legalized segregation and lynchings were common in the South.  Or 150 years ago, when America had legalized slavery, where one man literally owned another.  I think we have actually become much less race conscious over the last 20 years or so.  As I said before, when Doc is not hailed as a "black coach" but as a player's coach, as the coach of the NBA champion Boston Celtics.  When race isn't brought into play, that is a huge accomplishment for us as a people.  Does racism still exist?  Absolutely. In this town? Definitely.  But we have come a long long way, and there are still more steps to take.

[fairweatherfan]

when tony Dungy won the superbowl, it was a huge deal, and well deserved.

the celtics having three african american coaches winning a championship was not even a point that was brought up.
i just feel that it should be recognized as a big accomplishment, added to the many that this franchise has in its long history.

in some ways it shows us how far we have come to NOT have to mention it.  A colorblind world would be so ideal

I agree, though I think part of it has to do with the NBA being viewed as more of an African-American league than any other major sports organization.  That goes from players to coaches to management to fans, and is slowly starting to filter into ownership groups.

The reason Dungy winning was such a big deal, and Doc was not, was that the NFL was a much more unabashedly racist league than the NBA for a long time - I remember as a kid in the late-80s hearing that many NFL types still sincerely believed black men did not have the mental capacity to play quarterback, for example.  The same idea was held for coaches - the NFL had to specifically put in the Rooney Rule to guarantee minority coaches were even given interviews - a rule the NBA never needed. 

Of course, since it's the NFL, nobody really cares, while every problem in the NBA is widely hyped as a detriment to the league and an "image issue" (see the reaction to the current spate of NFL arrests vs the reaction to the NBA's JailBlazers years earlier in the decade) - but that's another thread.

[cavman]

The Sports community in Boston has a mixed record.  The Celtics broke the barriers, while the Sox were the last (with the Yankees) to have A-A players.  But, at one point Jim Rice was the highest paid player in baseball.  The new ownership of the Sox has really seemed color blind.

It wasn't so much that Bird went to Boston that reaffirmed it, but that the Celtics, in racist Boston, were the only team that could field an all-white team.  But what mattered to Red was basketball ability, not skin color so all that was just a bunch of junk.

As noted, Boston in the 70's was a bad place to be if you were black.  It takes time for a city to change people's perceptions, and every act by a racist reinforces it.

Just heard about how an African-American community in Ohio was deprived of public water for 30 years!

Sorry, Marx didn't know diddly about much- politics or racism.  Many buy into the power bit.  It gets minorities off the hook for their racism.

Racism is about hatred and fear.  In some cases there is an air of superiority.  But most often is is prevelant among those who fear losing their place in society to the people on the lower rung of the ladder.  The newest immigrants are usually the subject of racism due to fear.  I guess you could say it is the fear of losing power, or the fear of never gaining power.  But you don't need to have the power to be racist.

I agree that it is too bad that a Boston team, amid the allegations by some people, won a championship with an African-American coach.  Yeah, the 3rd time that has happened.  If people make an issue of not enough African-American coaches in the NFL, they can applaud the progress in places like the NBA.

[cmburrill]

The Boston Redsox was the last team to have sign a African American ball player 12 years after Jackie. Further more, Harvard U Civil Rights project throws this out...http://third_decade.typepad.com/killing_time/2005/04/racism_study_in.html

Please read the hyperlink...it discusses the Boston's African-American fans and how they feel when they attend games ect... it is realted to our topic more then just the overall racism in the city. if you have read it bump.

[Finkelskyhook]

I could care less what a coach's color is or how many of them they are.  Can they play the game?  Can they coach?  Can they help the organization win?  Do they show the organization in a positive light to bring more fans to the arena. Preoccupation with anything else constitutes the very thing we should be getting away from as a society.  But we're obscessed with it instead.  The hyphonated-American acronym is a bunch of crap.  You're either an American or you're not.

The fact that Tony Dungy is a great man is relevent.  The fact that he is a great coach is relevent to the organization.  Nothing else should be. 

The fact that Bob Knight is a great man is relevent.  The fact that he insisted on graduation and gave disadvantaged young men life lessons to help them become great people is relevent.  Nothing else should be.

A good person is a good person.  If an organization, sports team or otherwise, hire based on color and not on content, they're penalized by not being the best they can be.

[cdif911]

I could care less what a coach's color is or how many of them they are.  Can they play the game?  Can they coach?  Can they help the organization win?  Do they show the organization in a positive light to bring more fans to the arena. Preoccupation with anything else constitutes the very thing we should be getting away from as a society.  But we're obscessed with it instead.  The hyphonated-American acronym is a bunch of crap.  You're either an American or you're not.

The fact that Tony Dungy is a great man is relevent.  The fact that he is a great coach is relevent to the organization.  Nothing else should be. 

The fact that Bob Knight is a great man is relevent.  The fact that he insisted on graduation and gave disadvantaged young men life lessons to help them become great people is relevent.  Nothing else should be.

A good person is a good person.  If an organization, sports team or otherwise, hire based on color and not on content, they're penalized by not being the best they can be.

you make some terrific points.  One thing that I think is important though is the role of government (or governing bodies) in cases where racial (or whatever kind of) discrimination exists.  Equity of access is considerably important, and I think the NFL example given earlier where there is a mandate for a "minority candidate" is put out there because the best candidate may actually be a minority, but without the opportunity would never get the interview in the first place (whether its pure racism, doubtful in pro-sports, or just self-degredation where an individual doesn't think he/she is good enough for a position because of a stereotypical factor)  Regardless, racism is grossly inefficient for a society to embrace - the story of the individual earlier who lived in apartheid - I can't even begin to imagine what that was like.

all that said, I don't mind hyphenated Americans.  It allows us to retain some of our heritage without making it a defining characteristic.  Fun activity - ask 100 americans what their heritage is and I bet you 75 will use something besides "American" - interesting world we live in

[Finkelskyhook]

I could care less what a coach's color is or how many of them they are.  Can they play the game?  Can they coach?  Can they help the organization win?  Do they show the organization in a positive light to bring more fans to the arena. Preoccupation with anything else constitutes the very thing we should be getting away from as a society.  But we're obscessed with it instead.  The hyphonated-American acronym is a bunch of crap.  You're either an American or you're not.

The fact that Tony Dungy is a great man is relevent.  The fact that he is a great coach is relevent to the organization.  Nothing else should be. 

The fact that Bob Knight is a great man is relevent.  The fact that he insisted on graduation and gave disadvantaged young men life lessons to help them become great people is relevent.  Nothing else should be.

A good person is a good person.  If an organization, sports team or otherwise, hire based on color and not on content, they're penalized by not being the best they can be.

you make some terrific points.  One thing that I think is important though is the role of government (or governing bodies) in cases where racial (or whatever kind of) discrimination exists.  Equity of access is considerably important, and I think the NFL example given earlier where there is a mandate for a "minority candidate" is put out there because the best candidate may actually be a minority, but without the opportunity would never get the interview in the first place (whether its pure racism, doubtful in pro-sports, or just self-degredation where an individual doesn't think he/she is good enough for a position because of a stereotypical factor)  Regardless, racism is grossly inefficient for a society to embrace - the story of the individual earlier who lived in apartheid - I can't even begin to imagine what that was like.

all that said, I don't mind hyphenated Americans.  It allows us to retain some of our heritage without making it a defining characteristic.  Fun activity - ask 100 americans what their heritage is and I bet you 75 will use something besides "American" - interesting world we live in

The problem, as vividly illustrated by the abomination that is the coaching interviewing process in the NFL, is that nobody can mandate or legislate equality.  Whenever somebody tries, they exasterbate inequality.  The obscession with hyphonating people into seperate classes further exasterbates inequality.

I'm proud of my heritage.  My parent's and grandparent's stories are an inspiration to me.  But I'm much prouder to be an American.  To be consumed with what happened to my grandparents, good or bad, does not make my situation any different.  If I hired based on my father's opinion, I'd never have gotten past my first year in business.  That's the penalty an organization pays for being idiots.  Because my first manager was a great, great man who happened to be black.   Nobody I interviewed when I hired him came close.  He carried me and my business during critical junctures.  I'm in my 28th year and doing better every year.   It's simple common sense.  It can't be legislated.  The problem with being in a free society is that sometimes common sense is not at a premium.   

If you hire the best person, you win.  If you don't, it may take a while.  But you lose.