Dealing Ray Allen

[bbc3341]

Ray Allen's numbers were lower because he played on a great team with a ton of other scorers. I just watched game 4 of the finals again and Ray Allen was amazing in that game. He played every minute and made some HUGE shots and stops on the other end. He is vastly underrated in this thread and the trade proposed is not one I would do at all.

[Michael Anthony]

Look, I am not arguing about who has had the better carreer - I am arguing about the next 2-3 seasons, and it really is not a contest. Dunleavy was better last season, and is six years younger.

I am not talking just about scoring either, I am talking about efficiency, facilitation, and rebounding - all areas where Dunleavy comes out ahead.

If you were to list the Top 3 issues facing this team, what would they be?
1. Age
2. Backup Center
3. Backup Point

This trade addresss all three, and obviously we lay the groundwork with Indy before we sign anyone to the full MLE, and we do not make the trade unless we get a Gordon caliber shooting guard for the full MLE.

Rondo / House
Allen / Posey
Pierce / Posey
Garnett / Posey
Perkins / Garnett

or

Rondo / Tinsley
Gordon / Pierce
Pierce / Dunleavy
Garnett / Foster
Perkins / Foster

I also question the value of Allen's contract next season anyway. Guys like James, Melo, Wade, and Bosh almost always resign with their old teams - so even if one of them gets away, there are allready three teams with enough cap lined up to make a max deal - they do not need us.

[RebusRankin]

Number 1: Boston is not going to get Gordon for the MLE.

Number 2: Gordon is overrated. He's one dimensional (scorer) and doesn't provide any play making, defense or rebounding.

Number 3: Ray provides defense, rebounding and play making in addition to scoring.

Number 4: Dunlevy is not a good player.

Number 5: Tinsley is injury prone, has an inflated contract and has a bad attitude.

Conclusion: Your trade is a bad one.

[scalabrine44mvp]

All I have to ask to you sir is... What team did Dunleavy play for last year? ok now look at that team and what they accomplished... now What team did Ray Allen play for last year? ok now look at that team and what they accomplished... after doing that we should all realize that a couple more PPG on a losing team means nothing... My conclusion- STICK WITH RAY

[Roy Hobbs]

Does this trade even work?

Ray Allen = $17,388,430

Dunleavy + Foster + Tinsley (ugh) = $21,925,000

$17,388,430 * 125% + $100,000 = $21,835,537.50

According to Hoopshype's numbers, then, it doesn't work.  Even if the Celts threw in a minimum-salaried player to make things match up, I doubt that they're willing to take on $4.5 million+ in salary when Ray Allen is the best player in the deal.

Also, what does Ben Gordon have to do with this trade?  If he's willing to take the MLE, why does it matter if we have Ray vs. Dunleavy?  Is it a matter of us just having less holes to fill?

[crownsy]

Look, I am not arguing about who has had the better carreer - I am arguing about the next 2-3 seasons, and it really is not a contest. Dunleavy was better last season, and is six years younger.

I am not talking just about scoring either, I am talking about efficiency, facilitation, and rebounding - all areas where Dunleavy comes out ahead.

If you were to list the Top 3 issues facing this team, what would they be?
1. Age
2. Backup Center
3. Backup Point

This trade addresss all three, and obviously we lay the groundwork with Indy before we sign anyone to the full MLE, and we do not make the trade unless we get a Gordon caliber shooting guard for the full MLE.

Rondo / House
Allen / Posey
Pierce / Posey
Garnett / Posey
Perkins / Garnett

or

Rondo / Tinsley
Gordon / Pierce
Pierce / Dunleavy
Garnett / Foster
Perkins / Foster

I also question the value of Allen's contract next season anyway. Guys like James, Melo, Wade, and Bosh almost always resign with their old teams - so even if one of them gets away, there are allready three teams with enough cap lined up to make a max deal - they do not need us.

your not acknowledging that ray was the third option though. You would have to take 5-8 shots a game away from dunleavy to make the comparison, and when you do that, its not close.

in no real world scenario will dunleavy ever be as good as ray allen. he will be a career starter on bad teams, and a good backup on a good one.

the trade is horrid, theres no way around it. it depends on the bulls GM getting hammered and not matching a MLE offer for ben gordon to even be remotely acceptable, and there's no reason he would do that.

Also, as everyone has mentioned, ray will be a huge chip next year if your hell bent on trading him, why trade him for pennies now, when we can trade him for a ton next year as teams try to free up cap space?

This trade summed up in an image to me:




also, how in any reasonable NBA scenario can you question the value of a 19 million expiring contract? since the current CBA started, expiring contracts have been MASSIVE chips. how did wally's contract and theo ratliffs expiring contracts work out for us? i think we turned those much smaller expiring contracts into a bunch.

contracts that put teams a ton under the salary cap are the key to trades, since you have to match salary. they bring future hof'ers (ray and KG) or top 5 draft picks, your choice.

[wdleehi]

What's the point of this trade?   The Celtics gets rid of the third star and only SG to bring in three highly payed bench players?   Then, go out an sign a small SG to replace Ray?


The defense suddenly looks awful. 

[indeedproceed]

Look, I am not arguing about who has had the better carreer - I am arguing about the next 2-3 seasons, and it really is not a contest. Dunleavy was better last season, and is six years younger.

I am not talking just about scoring either, I am talking about efficiency, facilitation, and rebounding - all areas where Dunleavy comes out ahead.

If you were to list the Top 3 issues facing this team, what would they be?
1. Age
2. Backup Center
3. Backup Point

This trade addresss all three, and obviously we lay the groundwork with Indy before we sign anyone to the full MLE, and we do not make the trade unless we get a Gordon caliber shooting guard for the full MLE.

Rondo / House
Allen / Posey
Pierce / Posey
Garnett / Posey
Perkins / Garnett

or

Rondo / Tinsley
Gordon / Pierce
Pierce / Dunleavy
Garnett / Foster
Perkins / Foster

I also question the value of Allen's contract next season anyway. Guys like James, Melo, Wade, and Bosh almost always resign with their old teams - so even if one of them gets away, there are allready three teams with enough cap lined up to make a max deal - they do not need us.

1) Denver Nuggets: 45 million in guaranteed payroll with only 3 guys on the payroll in 2010/11

2) Dallas Mavericks: 45 Million guaranteed with 4 guys in 2010/2011

3) Lakers: 54 million in guaranteed with 5 guys in 2010/2011

4) Milwaulkee Bucks: 53 million, 6 guys in 2010/2011

5) New Orleans: 43 million in six guys, no counting the MASSIVE contract CP3 just signed.

6) Orlando: 43 million before they resign Hedo in 5 guys

All of the teams above are going to have a lot of money ties up after the 2010 FA period, and I stopped looking at "o". Most of that money is tied up in 1 or 2 guys, and a lot of things can happen in a year. Next summer maybe Dallas doesn't think Josh Howard fits into their long term plans...maybe Milwaulkee is ready to trade Redd a day late and a dollar cheaper, and reload again. No matter what whenever teams come to this kind of decision in this kind of climate, what do they want? CAP ROOM!

Maybe we get some draft picks, maybe we get some players, who knows but no matter what Ray Allen's value will be bigger next season for at least a quarter of the league than his value is now.

[BballTim]

Rondo / Tinsley
Gordon / Pierce
Pierce / Dunleavy
Garnett / Foster
Perkins / Foster

  Aside from the fact that Gordon's not going to sign for the MLE you're paying Tinsley and Dunleavy $50M  over the next 3 years to be backups.

[cordobes]

Is that you, Larry Legend? 

[Kwhit10]

Don't get caught up in Dunleavy's only good statistical year, when JO was out for most of the season and the top guys to score on that team were Dunleavy and Granger.  If you had Ray Allen on the Pacers last year instead of Dunleavy I bet his numbers would be fantastic being the top dog.

[BCelts]

Look, I am not arguing about who has had the better carreer - I am arguing about the next 2-3 seasons, and it really is not a contest. Dunleavy was better last season, and is six years younger.

I am not talking just about scoring either, I am talking about efficiency, facilitation, and rebounding - all areas where Dunleavy comes out ahead.

If you were to list the Top 3 issues facing this team, what would they be?
1. Age
2. Backup Center
3. Backup Point

This trade addresss all three, and obviously we lay the groundwork with Indy before we sign anyone to the full MLE, and we do not make the trade unless we get a Gordon caliber shooting guard for the full MLE.

Rondo / House
Allen / Posey
Pierce / Posey
Garnett / Posey
Perkins / Garnett

or

Rondo / Tinsley
Gordon / Pierce
Pierce / Dunleavy
Garnett / Foster
Perkins / Foster

I also question the value of Allen's contract next season anyway. Guys like James, Melo, Wade, and Bosh almost always resign with their old teams - so even if one of them gets away, there are allready three teams with enough cap lined up to make a max deal - they do not need us.

Dunleavy was NOT better last year.  To conclude this, you are relying way too heavily on statistics.  It is far easier to generate good stats on a bad team then to generate stats when you are sharing the ball and working with other great players to win a championship.  A player's stats will decline on a great team, like Ray and KG's stats fell this year.  Compare Ray's stats over his career with Dunleavy's career stats for a clearer picture.

[dooyork]

We should try to get Indiana to throw in Fred Jones and Primož Brezec.

[celticsfan8591]

I think you could get a little more for Ray.

Really? More than Ben Gordon, Mike Dunleavy, Jamaal Tinsley, and Jeff Foster? Please send Ainge a memo, he needs to know.

Horrible...We are not trading Ray Allen....no one should want to trade him!!!!

He could have easily been Finals MVP and you think we should trade him...give me a break!

I anticipated this response; here is a quick comparison of Allen & Dunleavy last season:

Player - Min / Pts / Ast / Rbs / Stl
Allen - 35.9 / 17.4 / 3.1 / 3.6 / 0.9
Dunleavy - 36.0 / 19.1 / 3.5 / 5.2 / 1.0

Better in every category - and he was more efficient:

Player - FG% / 3P% / FT%
Allen - .445 / .398 / .907
Dunleavy - .476 / .424 / .834

Finally, lets keep one other thing in mind - Dunleavy is 27 and Allen is 33: who do you think is going to be more productive over the next 2 years?

Dunleavy only had better #'s because he was the first option on a crappy team.  If you want a fair comparison, you should use Allen's stats from 2 seasons ago, when he was also the first option on a crappy team (I believe he averaged 26 points).  Allen didn't shoot as well because he didn't get the ball consistently and was frequently the guy shooting as the shot clock expired.  Dunleavy isn't even close to Allen

[BCelts]

We should try to get Indiana to throw in Fred Jones and Primož Brezec.

I would trade Ray for Granger, Tinsley, and a first round, unprotected pick.  Maybe.