what or who really made the difference ?

[guava_wrench]

We definitely could have won with Al if we also brought back Antoine Walker and Eric Williams...


Please do not take this seriously.

[nickagneta]

no way in hell.

Al is not a sive defensively to be sure, but he isn't in the same area code as KG. never mind the leadership that KG brought.

my feelings exactly!

Al is without any question a much and i would punctuate the word much better offensive scorer than KG in the paint, Al is practically a scoring machine in the paint, and post play happens to be KG's weakness or hasn't anyone notice over the course of the season with the C's and especially in the playoffs.
Rebounding wise Al is just as good as KG period. Defensively and shooting the ball on the perimeter is where KG sets himself apart from Al in a big way, not to mention KG exudes leadership.
I still feel the biggest difference with Boston going to the championship was Tom Tibedeau's defensive strategies and KG led the way in that department. I was really wondering if Tom could've gotten Big Al to be as effective on the defensive end as he did with KG.
Al Jefferson is going to be a star in the NBA for some time he's gotten better with each season and I wouldn't be surprise if he makes the All Star Team next season

I think KG was the reason KG was effective on the defensive end of the floor and Tom Thibodeau had nothing to do with it. He was a NBA MVP, 6-time NBA All-Defense First Team and a 2-time NBA All-Defense second Team before he came here and was coached by Tom Thibodeau.

Also Thibodeau is an assistant coach, teaching Doc's defensive scheme and strategies. I posted this elsewhere today and I think it is pertinent here once again. I have nothing against Tom Thibodeau but the false idea that he was behind the strategy and total control of this defense is like a bunch of fingernails running down a chalkboard to me.

It is audio of Danny Ainge in a radio interview on WEEI discussing Thibodeau's impact and the assertion that it is Coach T's system:

http://audio.weei.com/m/18827930/danny_ainge.htm?col=en-aud-pod_weei-ep&q= ...
... +ainge&seek=1122.319

Start listening at the 12 minute mark. In the interview Larry Johnson was trying to praise Tom Thibodeau and Danny shot him down right away and pointed out that Doc was the man responsible for the team and the defense and it was his scheme. It is a good listen and I think Danny dispels a lot of misconceptions as to just how much Thibodeau is responsible for what happened defensively. Why people will not believe the man that runs the Celtic organization and who would know better than all of us is beyond me.

I saw the same blitzes on the pick and roll in 2006 as I did in 2008. I saw the same defensive rotations in 2006 and 2008. I saw the same positioning on the outlet passing, the same positioning on the fast break, I saw the same forcing of ballhandlers into the same help areas. I saw these things because the difference between 2006 and 2008 are the players in the system and the coach teaching the players the system. But the system is the same.

Thibodeau was amazing at teaching the defense and getting the players understanding their responsibilities within the system. But he is not some Buddy Ryan type, conceptual, scheme-based coordinator that runs all things defense in the Celtics.

Has anyone besides me sat close enough to the huddles during the games to hear what goes on? I did twice, once with Doc as coach, once with three odd years ago. Television shows us Doc being a rah-rah motivational guy but that's because they are contractually obligated not to show any x's and o's, or let anyone hear the defensive and offensive assignments and plays and other important aspects of what goes on.

What I heard and saw that game was the players coming to the bench and the assistants telling the layers what had been happening. Vet players, Clifford Ray, Tom Thibodeau and Doc all had imput as to what was happening and how to stop it. When things were going bad it was Doc being the loudest voice in that portion of the huddle. But when it came down to what was going to happen next and anything else, that was all Doc and no one else. At least not that game. And from what I saw on television, it didn't appear all that much different.

Perhaps someone who blogs here that is around that area more than I can chime in and let me know if I am way off base here. But at game time, that's Doc's team. The assistants assist and I do believe that Coach T acts in an Assist Head Coach, 2nd in charge manner, but I also believe that most here way, way overplay his role as to what occurs on that team.

I think he was great for this team and covered up one of Doc's less than great skills, that being teaching his defensive scheme. He was a huge asset to Doc's staff. But the player skill and intelligence and experience increased significantly as well and that needs to be taken into account as well.

I hope that clears things up regarding Coach T.

[TripleOT]

I had the Cs at 45-48 wins with Big Al instead of KG, and the rest of the roster the same, with no late year additions like PJ and Sam.  They possibly get out of the first round, depending on match up. 

[nickagneta]

I had the Cs at 45-48 wins with Big Al instead of KG, and the rest of the roster the same, with no late year additions like PJ and Sam.  They possibly get out of the first round, depending on match up. 

I would concur with those totals. But that would only be if we still got Posey and House which, if the KG trade didn't go down probably doesn't happen and we would have had Gomes and Telfair taking over those roster slots. So those win totals might even have been a bit high.

[Reyquila]

The biggest single factor that allowed us the win Número 17 was the fact that we had home court advangtage through out the series. How we got that advangtage is due toall those factors that you have mentioned before me. We had a one tract mind towards getting that home advangtage and it paid off 1000%. WE got into a mission and never deviated from it and that was the result.I dont think we would have made it otherwise. Not saying we would not have done it; but beating Atlanta and Cavs in their home turf; well, Im glad we didnt have to do it. Why tempt fate?   

[nickagneta]

The biggest single factor that allowed us the win Número 17 was the fact that we had home court advangtage through out the series. How we got that advangtage is due toall those factors that you have mentioned before me. We had a one tract mind towards getting that home advangtage and it paid off 1000%. WE got into a mission and never deviated from it and that was the result.I dont think we would have made it otherwise. Not saying we would not have done it; but beating Atlanta and Cavs in their home turf; well, Im glad we didnt have to do it. Why tempt fate?   

TP4U, never thought of it that way.

[Big Ticket]

Even with the veteran role players, this team isn't sniffing a title without KG.  Look at how close the Cleveland and Atlanta series were.  You take KG out of the equation, we're looking at a first or second round exit. 

KG changed the culture of the team.  As clever as Thibodeau is with his schemes, he couldn't have done it without KG literally willing his teammates to do what Thibodeau wanted. 

  Atlanta wouldn't have taken us to 7 games with Jefferson on the team instead of KG. We wouldn't have suffered through those offensive lulls. And Al's numbers weren't inflated in Minny. He would have put up better numbers here.

I disagree on both fronts.  Al would not be taking over 17 shots a game if he was still on Boston this year.  Probably closer to 13, like KG/Pierce/Ray.  Maybe his percentage jumps a bit, but he wouldn't be scoring over 20 a game.  Al's scoring would've been similar to KG, but you would've lost a ton in the passing out of the post area.  And Jeff definitely would not have had the same number of boards.  He was the only big guy for most of the Wolves games.  If he had Perk, Pierce, and Rondo along side him, there is no way he gets the same number of boards.

As far as the Atlanta series...KG averaged about 25 a game on decent shooting in Atlanta during that series.  I don't know if you can quite say he was the reason for the "lulls" or that there wouldn't have been any lulls with Al instead.  By the way, Pierce averaged 17.3 in Atlanta, Ray averaged 18 per game.   

[sk7326]

My question is could we have won the East and the Championship with Al Jefferson and Tom Tibedeau our defensive coach without having made the trade for KG ? Al's numbers were better in points and rebounding and Jefferson is no slouch on defense though he's not KG.
I honestly believe that Tom Tibedeau made the biggest difference along with KG but I wonder if Ton and Al Jefferson could've had the same results.
Al is a bit more effective offensively and more a consistent rebounder and is on par with KG in turns of blocking shots !
Al isn't nearly as demonstrative and KG nor so outspoken, he doesn't seem to have the leadership qualities of KG but do you think the results would've been the same with Jefferson and not KG ?
Keeping in mind that Tom Tibedeau was a key factor in most of the C's wins with his defensive strategy

KG allowed the strategy to work.  KG was the 9th most productive player in the entire NBA this season (using PER which warts and all is a solid measure).  He played the fewest minutes of his career while Al played a lot more in Minnesota and had more available shots.

Al was not a great defender and even if he evolved, KG is another level. 

[drza44]

KG allowed the strategy to work.  KG was the 9th most productive player in the entire NBA this season (using PER which warts and all is a solid measure).  He played the fewest minutes of his career while Al played a lot more in Minnesota and had more available shots.

Al was not a great defender and even if he evolved, KG is another level. 

KG was 4th in the NBA in PER this year, behind only LeBron, Paul, and Amare.  If you look at Roland Rating (82games.com) which combined PER, opponents' PER (as a defensive stat), and team +/- KG was second in the NBA to only LeBron.

Big Al was #12 in the NBA in PER, but if you look at Roland Rating he was outside of the top 100.  Because Roland Rating considers both defense and overall impact on team success, two areas that Big Al isn't even within shouting distance of KG.

[D Dub]

Who made the biggest difference?  Danny Ainge.  Everyone he brought in played their part to perfection.

Pierce had one of his best seasons, and an epic playoff - outplaying the games 2 best players when it counted
KG was as solid as ever anchoring the best D not only in the league, but in recent memory
Ray stepped up late in the playoffs when we needed it most
Rondo took the 2nd year leap
Posey and House were the crunch time guys who spread the floor and played great D with huge energy
Leon and Baby straight manhandled people
PJ came in and filled a huge role during the playoffs
Even Sam Cassell had his moments when we couldn't buy a bucket... as much as I hated seeing him check in
And lets not forget Doc, who salvaged his career this season.



The whole team was incredible working together.  That is why we NEED to bring back at HOUSE and POSEY.  They complete us like no one else in the league could.

[Bahku]

Everyone ... what made the difference was everyone's commitment to the team concept, and putting winning as a team ahead of their own egos and agendas. Ubuntu ... which, I have to admit, was Doc's baby.

[nickagneta]

Everyone ... what made the difference was everyone's commitment to the team concept, and putting winning as a team ahead of their own egos and agendas. Ubuntu ... which, I have to admit, was Doc's baby.

Ahhhh, the voice of reason!! Welcome back, my man, good to see you posting again.

[BballTim]

Even with the veteran role players, this team isn't sniffing a title without KG.  Look at how close the Cleveland and Atlanta series were.  You take KG out of the equation, we're looking at a first or second round exit. 

KG changed the culture of the team.  As clever as Thibodeau is with his schemes, he couldn't have done it without KG literally willing his teammates to do what Thibodeau wanted. 

  Atlanta wouldn't have taken us to 7 games with Jefferson on the team instead of KG. We wouldn't have suffered through those offensive lulls. And Al's numbers weren't inflated in Minny. He would have put up better numbers here.

I disagree on both fronts.  Al would not be taking over 17 shots a game if he was still on Boston this year.  Probably closer to 13, like KG/Pierce/Ray.  Maybe his percentage jumps a bit, but he wouldn't be scoring over 20 a game.  Al's scoring would've been similar to KG, but you would've lost a ton in the passing out of the post area.  And Jeff definitely would not have had the same number of boards.  He was the only big guy for most of the Wolves games.  If he had Perk, Pierce, and Rondo along side him, there is no way he gets the same number of boards.

As far as the Atlanta series...KG averaged about 25 a game on decent shooting in Atlanta during that series.  I don't know if you can quite say he was the reason for the "lulls" or that there wouldn't have been any lulls with Al instead.  By the way, Pierce averaged 17.3 in Atlanta, Ray averaged 18 per game.   

  I'd say that Al would have probably gotten 14 or 15 shots a game but he would have had a higher fg% so he still would have gotten 20 a game or so. He might not have gotten quite as many rebounds as he did in Minny but he would have gotten more than KG because he's a better rebounder. And I didn't blame the lulls on KG. But we certainly had some scoring droughts when we should have been putting the game out of reach. A go to inside scorer would have helped them in those stretches.

[paintitgreen]

Bball Tim, your love of Al is admirable, but you're overstating his present ability. He is NOT a better rebounder or scorer than KG, at least not yet. It is absolutely ridiculous that people continue not to recognize that big stats only matter on a good team. When your team is crap, you can get a lot more shots/looks/etc., whether the other team is focused on you or not and your stats get inflated. But even so, Hollinger's PER stat, a measure which looks at offense and rebounds (supposedly where Al is superior), but not defense (where KG is the best in the league and Al is way way way below average), lists Kevin Garnett higher than Al. So how is Al is better at offense and rebounding?

You act like people were throwing the kitchen sink at Al to stop him but let KG do whatever he wanted. For the entire regular season, KG was the number one guy on the Celtics opposing defenses tried to stop. And while the same is true for Al, teams actually tried against the Celtics - you see Minnesota on your schedule, and you think "easy win, we don't even have to try." Al's shooting percentage wouldn't have been much higher, and if he took as many shots as he did in Minny he would've interfered with our team philosophy.

I like Al a lot, I will not badmouth him and I agree that there are All Star appearances in his future. He is an outstanding scorer and rebounder. Me saying that KG is better than Al at scoring and rebounding is not an insult to Al - KG is one of the best players in NBA history. He is 25th in NBA history in rebounds, and 31st in points. He's incredible. Al is just not there yet, but it's no fault to Al that he's not yet an all-time great.

I understand the argument that we'd have been better off keeping Al, since our chance to win multiple titles down the road with Al, Rondo and a few high draft picks may be higher than our chance to win multiple titles now with a core in its 30s. I don't agree, but I can see that argument. But to say that we could have won the title this year with Al Jefferson instead of Kevin Garnett is the single most asinine thing I can remember seeing on this website. I'm not trying to be insulting, I have a lot of respect for all the posters (especially Bball Tim) who have expressed this notion but I'm shocked this even was written.

[BballTim]

Bball Tim, your love of Al is admirable, but you're overstating his present ability. He is NOT a better rebounder or scorer than KG, at least not yet. It is absolutely ridiculous that people continue not to recognize that big stats only matter on a good team. When your team is crap, you can get a lot more shots/looks/etc., whether the other team is focused on you or not and your stats get inflated. But even so, Hollinger's PER stat, a measure which looks at offense and rebounds (supposedly where Al is superior), but not defense (where KG is the best in the league and Al is way way way below average), lists Kevin Garnett higher than Al. So how is Al is better at offense and rebounding?

You act like people were throwing the kitchen sink at Al to stop him but let KG do whatever he wanted. For the entire regular season, KG was the number one guy on the Celtics opposing defenses tried to stop. And while the same is true for Al, teams actually tried against the Celtics - you see Minnesota on your schedule, and you think "easy win, we don't even have to try." Al's shooting percentage wouldn't have been much higher, and if he took as many shots as he did in Minny he would've interfered with our team philosophy.

I like Al a lot, I will not badmouth him and I agree that there are All Star appearances in his future. He is an outstanding scorer and rebounder. Me saying that KG is better than Al at scoring and rebounding is not an insult to Al - KG is one of the best players in NBA history. He is 25th in NBA history in rebounds, and 31st in points. He's incredible. Al is just not there yet, but it's no fault to Al that he's not yet an all-time great.

I understand the argument that we'd have been better off keeping Al, since our chance to win multiple titles down the road with Al, Rondo and a few high draft picks may be higher than our chance to win multiple titles now with a core in its 30s. I don't agree, but I can see that argument. But to say that we could have won the title this year with Al Jefferson instead of Kevin Garnett is the single most asinine thing I can remember seeing on this website. I'm not trying to be insulting, I have a lot of respect for all the posters (especially Bball Tim) who have expressed this notion but I'm shocked this even was written.

  I didn't say the team would be better with Al than KG, I didn't say that we'd be better off (or worse off) long term with Al than KG, and I didn't even say that he was a better scorer than KG. What I said was that Al is a better rebounder than KG and a better inside scorer than KG. Both of these statements are true.

  You're right that you can't compare Al on Minny to KG on Boston because the disparity of the 2 teams is too great. So a more apples to apples comparison would be the 2006-2007 season when they were both on crappy teams. KG had a rebounding rate of 34.6 and Al had a rebounding rate of 34.9. Obviously the difference was wider this year so I'll modify my statement to "slightly better".

  As far as inside scoring goes, for the 06-07 season KG made 56% of his close shots and 91% of his dunk attempts. Al made 58% of his inside shots and 97% of his dunks. Al took 59% of his shots from the inside while KG took 23% of his shots from the inside.

  I'd also say that Paul Pierce was our number 1 option on offense this season. And PER takes more into account than scoring and rebounding.