Author Topic: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)  (Read 46357 times)

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Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2008, 04:10:26 PM »

Offline Truth Hurts

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Actually, plenty of people have given suggestions that you have shot down.  You just have to accept that other people evaluate talent differently, and have different opinions than you.  Just because you don't like a player, does not mean they are a legitimate option.

Just because a guy is mentioned as a bench option does not mean that anyone sees that player filling the 6th man role. I keep reading that we should use the MLE to sign a bunch of guys who would be lucky to be 8th-10th men on a championship caliber club.

That's why Posey is so valuable. He has already proven that he can be the 6th man on a championship team. He has proven this twice already. Again, there is no one player available who could fill his role.
"Odom drains another 16-footer. It's 24-7, Lakers. They look so possessed on both ends that they've earned at least five sitting ovations from the Lakers' crowd." - Simmons

Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2008, 04:13:50 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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Devean George? Quinton Ross? Are you kidding me? Those guys can't defend three positions like Posey does, are not nearly as tough as Posey, nor do they stretch the floor like Posey.

You can sit here and say "we'll sign a wing defender, we'll sign another 3 point shooter, we'll sign another tough guy..."

You're not going to find one guy who gives you all those things. Even Bowen can't defend power forwards.

Remember, the whole Lakers series turned when Rondo and Perk were hurt and they put Posey and House in and spread the floor with shooters. Again.....there is no one guy available that gives you everything that BGJ does.

see heres the inherent difference in our arguments. youre operating under the belief that we NEED to sign ONE guy to guard 3 positions. i dont. i feel a committee of paul pierce, jr giddens, signed fa wing defender, signed big man(andersen maybe?) and even a little scal for a few min guarding mobile 4s can absolutely cover all bases on the wing and forward spots. we dont need one guy to do all that. truth be told i liked poseys defense at the 4 a lot less than when he was guarding wings on the perimeter. not to mention the fact that when he was at the 4 spot on offense we had a tendency to settle for the jumpshot WAY too often.

we dont need one guy to give us all that posey did. we can sign a few with the mle, fill out a whole roster, give each of them roles and get everything posey gave us on the court as a collective sum. as for who plays the 6th man, who cares who it is?? if all the roleplayers have a role and do what they do that situation will bear itself out naturally. the important thing is bringing in guys that can defend, that can play together and can support the starters.
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Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2008, 04:16:05 PM »

Offline Bankshot

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Devean George? Quinton Ross? Are you kidding me? Those guys can't defend three positions like Posey does, are not nearly as tough as Posey, nor do they stretch the floor like Posey.

You can sit here and say "we'll sign a wing defender, we'll sign another 3 point shooter, we'll sign another tough guy..."

You're not going to find one guy who gives you all those things. Even Bowen can't defend power forwards.

Remember, the whole Lakers series turned when Rondo and Perk were hurt and they put Posey and House in and spread the floor with shooters. Again.....there is no one guy available that gives you everything that BGJ does.

see heres the inherent difference in our arguments. youre operating under the belief that we NEED to sign ONE guy to guard 3 positions. i dont. i feel a committee of paul pierce, jr giddens, signed fa wing defender, signed big man(andersen maybe?) and even a little scal for a few min guarding mobile 4s can absolutely cover all bases on the wing and forward spots. we dont need one guy to do all that. truth be told i liked poseys defense at the 4 a lot less than when he was guarding wings on the perimeter. not to mention the fact that when he was at the 4 spot on offense we had a tendency to settle for the jumpshot WAY too often.

we dont need one guy to give us all that posey did. we can sign a few with the mle, fill out a whole roster, give each of them roles and get everything posey gave us on the court as a collective sum. as for who plays the 6th man, who cares who it is?? if all the roleplayers have a role and do what they do that situation will bear itself out naturally. the important thing is bringing in guys that can defend, that can play together and can support the starters.

So you would count on a rookie, one that you have no idea whether or not he can even play in the NBA rather than a proven veteran with championship experience?  Yeah, ok. ::)
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2008, 04:18:27 PM »

Offline Birdbrain

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If Posey declines the C's offer and leaves.

I'm hoping the C's resign both T Allen and House and the rookies and move on. 
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Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2008, 04:21:36 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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yeah he was much better guarding 4s all playoffs long..well maybe bec joe smith is no lebron or odom is no kobe. but the thing isur basically saying that the cs would never win a championship without posey.

i see why danny wants to keep the mle for others. he could get a backup c, sign walker for 3 years(maybe he thinks hed be a good player) or a backup pg(though i think rondo house and pruitt is adequate enough)

If Posey declines the C's offer and leaves.

I'm hoping the C's resign both T Allen and House and the rookies and move on. 


my sentiments exactly

Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2008, 04:24:20 PM »

Offline Chris

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Actually, plenty of people have given suggestions that you have shot down.  You just have to accept that other people evaluate talent differently, and have different opinions than you.  Just because you don't like a player, does not mean they are a legitimate option.

Just because a guy is mentioned as a bench option does not mean that anyone sees that player filling the 6th man role. I keep reading that we should use the MLE to sign a bunch of guys who would be lucky to be 8th-10th men on a championship caliber club.

That's why Posey is so valuable. He has already proven that he can be the 6th man on a championship team. He has proven this twice already. Again, there is no one player available who could fill his role.

I think Barnes can fill this role.  I think Finley can fill this role.  I absolutely think Kurt Thomas can fill this role.  So could Bonzi Wells.  Keyon Dooling could potentially also fill this role.  Najera is basically a perfect player to fill that role from the PF spot, and brings many of the same intangibles.  Mo Evans also could turn out to be a similar player to Posey when you put him with other great players.

I absolutely think there is a risk in bringing in anyone else new.  We don't know how they will fit into the system, and we don't know if they are one of the guys who are going to respond well to playing with such good players. 

But the fact is, Posey is not that much more, if any more talented than any of those players.  There is only so much of a premium we can pay, just because of his experience, and for the knowledge that he has done it before.  Any one of those guys could do as good a job, or better than him next year, but we don't know it for sure.  That is why we would offer him the full MLE.  But it is not reason enough to put the teams financial flexibility down the road in jeopardy.

Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2008, 04:28:15 PM »

Offline Truth Hurts

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Do we really need the MLE to sign a backup center and Eddie House? I really don't think we do.

Some of you are proposing that we replace Posey with the pu-pu platter of role players.....but it doesn't work like that. Good teams stick primarily to an 8 man rotation, with some occasional spot time for weaker players.

In theory, we could sign three guys that could play 8 minutes each, and each give us some of the things that BGJ does. Then, in the playoffs....those guys would get exposed for what they are.
"Odom drains another 16-footer. It's 24-7, Lakers. They look so possessed on both ends that they've earned at least five sitting ovations from the Lakers' crowd." - Simmons

Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #82 on: July 09, 2008, 04:29:17 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Devean George? Quinton Ross? Are you kidding me? Those guys can't defend three positions like Posey does, are not nearly as tough as Posey, nor do they stretch the floor like Posey.

You can sit here and say "we'll sign a wing defender, we'll sign another 3 point shooter, we'll sign another tough guy..."

You're not going to find one guy who gives you all those things. Even Bowen can't defend power forwards.

Remember, the whole Lakers series turned when Rondo and Perk were hurt and they put Posey and House in and spread the floor with shooters. Again.....there is no one guy available that gives you everything that BGJ does.

Yeps, that's the point I was going to make. Posey's versatility is a big asset. Ross is probably a better perimeter defender than Posey, but he can't defend PFs, let alone the Dirks of this world and he can't provide the spacing (as he has zero offensive game) or the rebounding. Barnes is a tough guy, who can defend some PFs or big SFs, but he can't defend quicker SFs or guards, nor provide the spacing because he's a poor 3pt shooter. Etc etc etc.

  Posey doesn't do a very good job of guarding power forwards.

Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2008, 04:30:07 PM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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I wonder if we had waited to sign KG to his extention, if he would of taken less so that we could keep Posey. I didn't understand the need to extend KG when we did. At that time he wasn't invested in the team yet. Now he'd be more likely to help out.

Ray Allen is also paid a little too much. It puts us in a tough bind to be so top heavy salary wise. But if we skim on the bench we're going to fall just short next year, which would be a shame.

KG had an option year for next year. Imagine we mortgaged the future, lose in the first round and KG OPT's out! I loved the immediate extension.

Even if he opted out, do you really think KG would turn down an extention at  20 or 21 mil per? No team could offer him close to what we could. But if he was a FA now, maybe he'd take something like 17 or 18 mil per, so we could keep Posey. Can't blame Posey for wanting his money. It's not like Pierce, Allen, or KG are on bargain deals.

Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #84 on: July 09, 2008, 04:30:42 PM »

Offline Chris

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Do we really need the MLE to sign a backup center and Eddie House? I really don't think we do.

Some of you are proposing that we replace Posey with the pu-pu platter of role players.....but it doesn't work like that. Good teams stick primarily to an 8 man rotation, with some occasional spot time for weaker players.

In theory, we could sign three guys that could play 8 minutes each, and each give us some of the things that BGJ does. Then, in the playoffs....those guys would get exposed for what they are.

I agree with this, and I absolutely think Posey is worth the MLE.  Its just a matter of years.  And I am not sure whether it is smart to give him 4 or 5, based on his age, and the C's salary structure.

Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2008, 04:31:56 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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Devean George? Quinton Ross? Are you kidding me? Those guys can't defend three positions like Posey does, are not nearly as tough as Posey, nor do they stretch the floor like Posey.

You can sit here and say "we'll sign a wing defender, we'll sign another 3 point shooter, we'll sign another tough guy..."

You're not going to find one guy who gives you all those things. Even Bowen can't defend power forwards.

Remember, the whole Lakers series turned when Rondo and Perk were hurt and they put Posey and House in and spread the floor with shooters. Again.....there is no one guy available that gives you everything that BGJ does.

see heres the inherent difference in our arguments. youre operating under the belief that we NEED to sign ONE guy to guard 3 positions. i dont. i feel a committee of paul pierce, jr giddens, signed fa wing defender, signed big man(andersen maybe?) and even a little scal for a few min guarding mobile 4s can absolutely cover all bases on the wing and forward spots. we dont need one guy to do all that. truth be told i liked poseys defense at the 4 a lot less than when he was guarding wings on the perimeter. not to mention the fact that when he was at the 4 spot on offense we had a tendency to settle for the jumpshot WAY too often.

we dont need one guy to give us all that posey did. we can sign a few with the mle, fill out a whole roster, give each of them roles and get everything posey gave us on the court as a collective sum. as for who plays the 6th man, who cares who it is?? if all the roleplayers have a role and do what they do that situation will bear itself out naturally. the important thing is bringing in guys that can defend, that can play together and can support the starters.

So you would count on a rookie, one that you have no idea whether or not he can even play in the NBA rather than a proven veteran with championship experience?  Yeah, ok. ::)

cmon bank, you just read my post. quit trying to act like you dont understand what i just said. i said a COMMITTEE of players including yes giddens. the first thing doc said about jr after they drafted him was that he could walk on the court right now and get minutes because of his defense and i agree with him. much like rondo giddens has a huge wingspan, quick hands and quick feet that allow him to close ground on shooters, recover quickly and play bigger than his actual size. that said im not talking about playing jr 25mpg like posey did in his first year. im talking about maybe 10mpg. i think we sign a lower profile wing defender to help support as well. and we still have paul pierce. i mean is this the team of "ubuntu" or not?? 12 guys, everybody plays a role. EVERYBODY is important and could be called upon right? so why cant we have a committee of guys to fill out a roster and each of them play a role in the success of this team?...or did we not do that last year?
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Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2008, 04:36:50 PM »

Offline Truth Hurts

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  so why cant we have a committee of guys to fill out a roster and each of them play a role in the success of this team?...or did we not do that last year?

No, we didn't do that last year.

Davis, Powe, Cassell, House, TAllen were buried for most of the post-season. When the matchups dictated so, they got some burn. House and Powe played well in certain matchups. But don't kid yourself. For 95% of the post-season, we had a 7 man rotation playing most of the minutes.

PP
KG
Ray
Rondo
Perk
Posey
PJ

Let's say the two-headed monster of House/Cassell at the back-up point was the 8th man.
"Odom drains another 16-footer. It's 24-7, Lakers. They look so possessed on both ends that they've earned at least five sitting ovations from the Lakers' crowd." - Simmons

Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2008, 04:41:58 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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Do we really need the MLE to sign a backup center and Eddie House? I really don't think we do.

Some of you are proposing that we replace Posey with the pu-pu platter of role players.....but it doesn't work like that. Good teams stick primarily to an 8 man rotation, with some occasional spot time for weaker players.

In theory, we could sign three guys that could play 8 minutes each, and each give us some of the things that BGJ does. Then, in the playoffs....those guys would get exposed for what they are.

in the regular season it can and then when the playoffs come you pick the main guys to help you and spot minutes for the rest. i agree with that and theres no reason we cant still do that. NONE. i think all this is is fear. fear of having to try something new. we tried something new last year too. people thought our bench would be bad last year too and thats after posey came on. as long as guys know their roles theres no reason it can't work.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2008, 04:45:52 PM »

Offline Chris

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Do we really need the MLE to sign a backup center and Eddie House? I really don't think we do.

Some of you are proposing that we replace Posey with the pu-pu platter of role players.....but it doesn't work like that. Good teams stick primarily to an 8 man rotation, with some occasional spot time for weaker players.

In theory, we could sign three guys that could play 8 minutes each, and each give us some of the things that BGJ does. Then, in the playoffs....those guys would get exposed for what they are.

in the regular season it can and then when the playoffs come you pick the main guys to help you and spot minutes for the rest. i agree with that and theres no reason we cant still do that. NONE. i think all this is is fear. fear of having to try something new. we tried something new last year too. people thought our bench would be bad last year too and thats after posey came on. as long as guys know their roles theres no reason it can't work.

Exactly.  If we don't get Posey, we can bring in one of the other wings as the 6th man.  But we may not need to ask as much of that position anyways, since the majority of our roster should be showing improvement.  Rondo and Perkins should be significantly better, and Powe will almost certainly improve, as will Davis.  We also could add an impact player off the bench at another position.  And that is not even mentioning Giddens and Walker, both of which have the potential to be superior to what Allen gave you last year. 

Re: No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)
« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2008, 04:47:55 PM »

Offline Truth Hurts

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in the regular season it can and then when the playoffs come you pick the main guys to help you and spot minutes for the rest. i agree with that and theres no reason we cant still do that. NONE. i think all this is is fear. fear of having to try something new. we tried something new last year too. people thought our bench would be bad last year too and thats after posey came on. as long as guys know their roles theres no reason it can't work.

But that is really the crux of my big problem with that whole idea. None of the guys mentioned are good enough to be in that 7-8 man rotation that contending teams use in playoff games. The reason that House and Powe disappeared for long stretches of the post-season is that they can only thrive in certain match-ups. They are not strong enough all around players to consistently play major minutes in a playoff run. You're proposing that we sign a bunch of House/Powe types and play a 12 man rotation in the playoffs. It doesn't work like that. You can only play five guys at a time. Players with holes in their games are exposed in the playoffs. Posey is versatile enough to play major minutes regardless of matchups. I really have not heard one name yet that I would put in that category.

Do you want Devean George or Quinton Ross in the game in the 4th quarter of a game 5 against Detroit? I know I certainly don't.

"Odom drains another 16-footer. It's 24-7, Lakers. They look so possessed on both ends that they've earned at least five sitting ovations from the Lakers' crowd." - Simmons