Mark Bartelstein : "Walker is a heck of a player"

[crownsy]

LOL at jordan winning championships by himself. those bulls teams were just a "wee" bit stacked, what with one of the top 5 defenders of all time, one of the best rebounders of all time, and some of the best bench players and complmantary pieces in the game at that time.

and, again, most of the replys are not direct attacks on walker, despite what you seem to belive, thier questions about how he fits in here, period, at this stage fo his career. I've seen little from any antoine pundits about what skills he provides at our deep forward rotation that are worth taking up minutes.

as i said, at best, he would be our 5th forward behind:

leon
davis
KG
pierce
posey

and i'd play all those guys first.

His skill set, scoring, which showed a marked decline over the last 2 years, and rebounding, are both things everyone in that group can already do.

simply put, we do not need another forward. we need a good backup combo gaurd to replace cassell, and a legitimate big man to back up perk.

walker achevies neither of these.

[BrickJames]

Look, Walker's not a bad player and he's fun to watch.  But he's basically uncoachable.  He's going to play his way, and that's it.  He's not a good fit in Boston at the moment, particularly since Glenn Davis can do almost everything Walker can do (except shoot ill-advised treys).

Antoine now is not Antoine circa 2002.  Hasn't the same thing (uncoachable) been said about Pierce, Allen?  They looked fully coachable to me.

And c'mon, Big Baby is nowhere close to Antoine in skill.  Do you really believe that?

[crownsy]

Look, Walker's not a bad player and he's fun to watch.  But he's basically uncoachable.  He's going to play his way, and that's it.  He's not a good fit in Boston at the moment, particularly since Glenn Davis can do almost everything Walker can do (except shoot ill-advised treys).

Antoine now is not Antoine circa 2002.  Hasn't the same thing (uncoachable) been said about Pierce, Allen?  They looked fully coachable to me.

And c'mon, Big Baby is nowhere close to Antoine in skill.  Do you really believe that?

at the moment, you bet. show me something walker has done better than davis for the last 2 years except the three ball.

career, you bet walker is far and away a better player. but walker has shown me jack since 2006.

and since this is a thread about aquiring pieces to help us, i fail to see how another forward is what we should be after.

[BrickJames]

LOL at jordan winning championships by himself.

and, again, most of the replys are not direct attacks on walker, despite what you belive, thier questions about how he fits in here, period, at this stage fo his career.

as i said, at best, he's our 5th forward behind:

leon
davis
KG
pierce
posey

His skill set, scoring, which showed a marked decline over the last 2 years, and rebounding, are both things everyone in that group can already do.

simply put, we do not need another forward. we need a good backup combo gaurd to replace cassell, and a legitimate big man to back up perk.

walker achevies neither of these.

Antoine is easily better than Powe or Davis.  Please don't even attempt a statistical argument there.

I'd like to see Toine play alongside 3 HoFers for a year and see his stats.

Oh wait, you can get a glimpse of that in his performance in Miami where he was INTEGRAL to their Finals run (i.e. if he wasn't there, they don't win).

Cassell is probably coming back from the looks of it, and PJ may too.  That's not to say we shouldn't look for a backup PG or Center especially, but a legitimate versatile 3/4 is always in demand.

Baby and Powe are never going to be all-stars.  In fact I think both their effectiveness will rapidly decline now that teams have a scouting report on them.  GPA can't carry them forever, and their trade value has peaked.  I expect to see one or both of them gone by February.

[crownsy]

LOL at jordan winning championships by himself.

and, again, most of the replys are not direct attacks on walker, despite what you belive, thier questions about how he fits in here, period, at this stage fo his career.

as i said, at best, he's our 5th forward behind:

leon
davis
KG
pierce
posey

His skill set, scoring, which showed a marked decline over the last 2 years, and rebounding, are both things everyone in that group can already do.

simply put, we do not need another forward. we need a good backup combo gaurd to replace cassell, and a legitimate big man to back up perk.

walker achevies neither of these.

Antoine is easily better than Powe or Davis.  Please don't even attempt a statistical argument there.

I'd like to see Toine play alongside 3 HoFers for a year and see his stats.

Oh wait, you can get a glimpse of that in his performance in Miami where he was INTEGRAL to their Finals run (i.e. if he wasn't there, they don't win).

Cassell is probably coming back from the looks of it, and PJ may too.  That's not to say we shouldn't look for a backup PG or Center especially, but a legitimate versatile 3/4 is always in demand.

Baby and Powe are never going to be all-stars.  In fact I think both their effectiveness will rapidly decline now that teams have a scouting report on them.  GPA can't carry them forever, and their trade value has peaked.  I expect to see one or both of them gone by February.

I don't get why were not allowed to bring stats into any discussion that involves walker.

is it because im supposed to ignore his last 2 years so it looks like a better signing?

in all seriousness, why is it that with regards to walker, if you bring out the proof that his career has been in decline since 2006, your met with the

"please don't bring stats into this!!!!" argument? both you and psquared have asked i not bring relevant stats into the discussion.

why should walker be immune to statistical evidence?

[BrickJames]

let's be fair - i always claim that stats are used to back up arguments that are flawed, whether they have to do with Toine or not.

Consider other things, like team chemistry, motivation, the team he's played on, etc.  Using in-game stats only paint a partial picture.

Miami was awful the past 2 years.  D-Whistle stopped getting so many calls, Shaq wasn't into it, and everyone wanted to rip Riley's fake face off.  How can you expect Walker to put up superstar numbers when he's not jiving with his team?  He was never a superstar and he cannot carry a team.  Why are you expecting him to?

And the TWolves...nuff said.  Really.  "Oh, Al Jefferson puts up 20 and 10!"  Shareef Abdur Rahim, part deux.  Mark my word.

Antoine would be a valuable asset to this team, considering the stage of his career, his hunger as a player (go ahead, make fat jokes), and the personnel of the team (he's very tight with Posey as well as Pierce obviously).

He is double-team worthy on the post, unlike Powe or Davis.  He can definitely shoot the three.  He is actually a fairly competent team defender too.  The key part is whether or not we can get him to remain on the block on only drift off to the corner or the top of the key when he belongs there (a la Posey).  With Doc's coaching and the constant thread of being decapitated by KG, I think Employee 8 would know his role and fill it well.

If you fail to accept that, so be it.

"Statistics are like a lamppost for the drunkard - better for support than for illumination"

[SShoreFan 2.0]

let's be fair - i always claim that stats are used to back up arguments that are flawed, whether they have to do with Toine or not.

Consider other things, like team chemistry, motivation, the team he's played on, etc.  Using in-game stats only paint a partial picture.

Miami was awful the past 2 years.  D-Whistle stopped getting so many calls, Shaq wasn't into it, and everyone wanted to rip Riley's fake face off.  How can you expect Walker to put up superstar numbers when he's not jiving with his team?  He was never a superstar and he cannot carry a team.  Why are you expecting him to?

And the TWolves...nuff said.  Really.  "Oh, Al Jefferson puts up 20 and 10!"  Shareef Abdur Rahim, part deux.  Mark my word.

Antoine would be a valuable asset to this team, considering the stage of his career, his hunger as a player (go ahead, make fat jokes), and the personnel of the team (he's very tight with Posey as well as Pierce obviously).

He is double-team worthy on the post, unlike Powe or Davis.  He can definitely shoot the three.  He is actually a fairly competent team defender too.  The key part is whether or not we can get him to remain on the block on only drift off to the corner or the top of the key when he belongs there (a la Posey).  With Doc's coaching and the constant thread of being decapitated by KG, I think Employee 8 would know his role and fill it well.

If you fail to accept that, so be it.

"Statistics are like a lamppost for the drunkard - better for support than for illumination"

With total warmth and sincerity:  This position is delusional at best. 

A career of undisciplined play and declining talents are why Mr. Walker is where he is today. 

[crownsy]

I agree that stats aren't the end all and be all, but ignoring them because they don't agree with you is no better. By your defintion, i'm supposed to agree with all your points, because there how it is.

yet all the points you make following your assertion that stats are a weak argument are in the eye of the beholder.

you base his decline in miami on thier team imploding, and the twolves you say are overrated. so, none of this is walkers fault, lets give him a free pass.

none of that proves anything, its your opinion. Some of it may be right, but that in no way makes it more valid, logical, or true than my assesment that walker is a player who is declining rapidly.

what you listed aren't qualifiers, thier bail outs. Your of course right that thier your opnion, and your entitled to them, but that doesn't mean that i;

"Fail to accept them, so be it"

Your arguments are no more valid than mine, simply because you said them and i didn't. whats your backup for saying jefferson isn't going to be elite? you have nothing more to base that on than i do in saying i think he'll be a force in the west for years to come.

also, your qoute at the end doesn't really affect my argument at all. i was and have been using stats as "support rather than illumination"

I stated my opnion, and then brought stats in to support it.

The point of that qoute is that stats on thier own aren't enough, not that stats are overrated, as was being implied.

[Mr October]

Walker is pretty much done. He is no where near the player he was 3 years ago.
That being said, i'd sign him for the minimum to see if he sticks. He is better than Powe/Davis.

What the C's really need in a big is another above the rim defender though. Powe would have to be traded to make rotation room for Walker.

[FallGuy]

The hatred really isn't that funny. Toine was a big part of this franchise and he was well loved. Hes a proven winner yet not many people are interested? I bet he could contribute more than BBD.

He won in Miami because of Wade/Shaq.

And Pierce won in Boston because of Garnett/Allen, right?   right.

So what's your point? 

PP contributes at an all-star top 10 in the league level right now.

Antoine would be lucky to crack the rotation of most teams.

So, noting that he's a "proven winner" is a silly argument. He'll bring next to nothing to the table next year that will contribute to winning.

[nickagneta]

Couple of points:

- Arguments that are based solely on stats in regards to basketball can be misleading but they still do lead credence to arguments when used as part of the point being made. Some examples:

Good Ray Allen is a good free throw shooter. I can argue that all day discussing all the times I've seen him go a month at a time while missing only a few. Also the stats show he shoots 92% and is usually in the top 5 in the league in that category.

Bad All the best teams were in the Western Conference this year. Using the stats, the winning % of the top 9 teams in the West were over .585, 8 teams won 50 or more games and all these teams had to play against each other. Stats are misleading because as the playoffs proved the Lakers and Spurs probably were the top 2 defensive teams out West and there's a chance they would have only been about the 5th and 6th best defenses in the East. The Celtics didn't beat LA they dominated them. Detroit would have beaten LA. So would Cleveland. Those are observed. The stats don't tell the complete truth.

So stats are useful but can be deceiving. The argument should be sound and then backed by good stats.

- Which leads to my second point. PSquared, your devotion to Antoine is admirable but I think it is blinding you to is actually real. Most of your one sentenced put downs on my "if" list were cute but held zero substance because you can't prove any of it.

Walker has never been a gym rat and he has been told by just about every coach he's had to work out in the offseason and better his body to make himself better. He never did it. He is not in the best shape he can be in and that does not bode well for players thatare approaching 32 and are already 2 steps slower and 6 inches shorter on their vertical.

Walker came off the bench, that doesn't mean he was a willing participant. His pouting which you admitted he does is probably a function of that. Is that the tone you want your vets on the bench setting for youngsters? Play me or I pout?

Put his ego in check? Done that? Where precisely? Were you in the Heat lockerroom? What about the Celtics? The T'Wolves? How do you know that? When I see Antoine(and I'm not the only one) pouting on the sideline, telling his coach that he's in good enough shape when he's not, and making himself unwelcome when he leaves places, that tells me he hasn't checked his ego. Just because he won a ring with Shaq and Wade doesn't mean he checked his ego at the door. It simply means the team was able to overcome any ego problems that existed. And if I remember right, there definitely were some ego situations going on.

Pat Riley is a pretty smart guy and Antoine didn't listen to him. If Riles wants to make a point to Shaq about being aout of shape let him. But Walker should have listened to Riley and got his ass in shape. Shaq was the big dog. walker didn't have the cache in that lockerroom to get away with what Shaq did. So if he isn't going to listen to a 6 time World Championship Hall of Fame coach, who is he going to listen to?

Showing passion and showing displeasure are two different things. If you are a parent you should know this. If not, wait, one day you will know the difference. One is constructive, one is a destructive question of authority.

By playing the 4 I meant staying under the boards and playing in the paint. Walker doesn't do that anymore. Hasn't for quite a while.

Age has nothing to do with whether a game has passed someone by. Big Baby's game could pass him by by the time he's 27 if he doesn't take care of his body. Havilcek's game didn't pass him by til he was 40. Every person has a different time. Walker's may have already come and gone. At 31. That's why people say the Celtics window is so small. 30, 31, and 32 years old.

Stating that the Celtics with Allen, Pierce and Garnett can win with Walker as a 12th man is completely and utterly different from saying that Walker would upgrade the 12th position on the bench. Obviously you misunderstood when I said:

"there is just too many for an Executive of the Year, who is looking to upgrade at every position beyond his starting 5 to make a run at repeating, can justify." I never said they couldn't win carrying Antoine's dead weight around as the 12th man. They can. They carried Scot Pollard dead weight around and won it all.

So in closing if you want to make good argumentative points great. Splash in a few pertinent facts awesome. But make some argument just don't shoot down what I have to say by stating the opposite and declaring it fact. That's no fun.

[PSquared]

particularly since Glenn Davis can do almost everything Walker can do (except shoot ill-advised treys).

 

So BBD can bring the ball up the court like a Point-Guard?  He can pass it like one as well, right?  He can break his man off the dribble, I suppose....

The only thing Walker CAN'T do that Davis does is devour 12 Pizzas in one sitting.  *oink* *oink*



That comment you stated was so ludicrous and waay-out-there, it's hilarity will endure for a long time.  BBD can do almost anything walker can do?? ****!!!!


I've got another joke for ya :  Three men walk into a bar...

[PSquared]

let's be fair - i always claim that stats are used to back up arguments that are flawed, whether they have to do with Toine or not.

Consider other things, like team chemistry, motivation, the team he's played on, etc.  Using in-game stats only paint a partial picture.

Miami was awful the past 2 years.  D-Whistle stopped getting so many calls, Shaq wasn't into it, and everyone wanted to rip Riley's fake face off.  How can you expect Walker to put up superstar numbers when he's not jiving with his team?  He was never a superstar and he cannot carry a team.  Why are you expecting him to?

And the TWolves...nuff said.  Really.  "Oh, Al Jefferson puts up 20 and 10!"  Shareef Abdur Rahim, part deux.  Mark my word.

Antoine would be a valuable asset to this team, considering the stage of his career, his hunger as a player (go ahead, make fat jokes), and the personnel of the team (he's very tight with Posey as well as Pierce obviously).

He is double-team worthy on the post, unlike Powe or Davis.  He can definitely shoot the three.  He is actually a fairly competent team defender too.  The key part is whether or not we can get him to remain on the block on only drift off to the corner or the top of the key when he belongs there (a la Posey).  With Doc's coaching and the constant thread of being decapitated by KG, I think Employee 8 would know his role and fill it well.

If you fail to accept that, so be it.

"Statistics are like a lamppost for the drunkard - better for support than for illumination"

With total warmth and sincerity:  This position is delusional at best. 

A career of undisciplined play and declining talents are why Mr. Walker is where he is today. 

And with total warmth and sincerity : YOU'RE DELUSIONAL if you or anyone here believes that BBD is equal to or better than Toine is.   Powe should not even be in the equation 'cause BBD has more potential to be good(providing he ever stops trying to out-do Oliver Miller in the eating-himself-out-of-the-league department)

[crownsy]

particularly since Glenn Davis can do almost everything Walker can do (except shoot ill-advised treys).

 

So BBD can bring the ball up the court like a Point-Guard?  He can pass it like one as well, right?  He can break his man off the dribble, I suppose....

The only thing Walker CAN'T do that Davis does is devour 12 Pizzas in one sitting.  *oink* *oink*



That comment you stated was so ludicrous and waay-out-there, it's hilarity will endure for a long time.  BBD can do almost anything walker can do?? ****!!!!


I've got another joke for ya :  Three men walk into a bar...

so my any proof walker has "brought the ball up like a point gaurd and broke his man off the dribble" done that since 2002. any at all.

I'll wait.

he is a good passer, your right there, but i'll be waiting with baited breath for the youtube "walker crossovers/handels/breaks x players ankles" videos.

i mean, if were just going to make stuff up and you and brick say we can't use stats cause thier a crutch and don't prove anything, i once saw big baby kill a man with his crossover move. guy dieded right on the court from massive ankle trama and internal bleeding.

you'll of course have to take my word for it, i know you understand though, since i have to take your word for all these crazy things walker can still do. 

[PSquared]

The hatred really isn't that funny. Toine was a big part of this franchise and he was well loved. Hes a proven winner yet not many people are interested? I bet he could contribute more than BBD.

He won in Miami because of Wade/Shaq.

And Pierce won in Boston because of Garnett/Allen, right?   right.

So what's your point? 

Antoine would be lucky to crack the rotation of most teams.

No.  That would be Glenn Davis and Leon Powe, actually. THOSE TWO would be lucky to crack the rotation.  Davis...'cause he's fatter than Shaq and Powe 'cause he has Journeyman-RolePlayer written all over him.  

Remember that a rotation varies from team to team...Some teams use more than 8 players, and some even use less.   If I were a betting man, I'd say the odds are pretty good he'd end up on a team where he's an integral part of its rotation...

Can't say the same for Fat-Boy and Tough-Guy(Powe)