Doc mistakes from this game

[expobear]

Powe is a bad matchup against the starting laker big men.  No way around it. 


Could Powe have played against the Laker reserves, yes.  but the linup with Posey out there at PF also worked well in this game against the laker reserves.  And since Pierce and Ray were not sitting in the 2nd half, and the Celtics want Posey or PJ out there, there really wasn't the available minutes for Powe at that point. 

I think Powe is a better matchup on Odom than PJ is.  I don't see all this can't hang with Laker big man discussion.  Before he committed the foul off the busted play on Gasol, he forced him into a very tough shot, and didn't get burned by any of the Laker big men.  That was KG gettng beat by Gasol and Odom had done nothing on Powe.  Although I agree that the small lineup the C's put out there was effective.  I can see running Posey out there as a 4 with the starters, but I just don't see PJ being able to give 20+ minutes. 

PJ was covering Gasol most of the time he was in there.  The put PJ in there, so they could move Garnett off of him.

I also want to add that Powe absolutely effects KG getting beat.  One of the reasons Perk is so important is that he helps KG, and is there as a backup when he does get beat.  This is way too much to ask from either Powe or PJ, but when it comes down to it, PJ is the superior help defender of the two, and also provides a bigger presence down low to protect the basket.

Well Perk wasn't around, Coach.  Great now it's Powe's fault that Garnett, one of the top defensive players in the league, had troubles in the first 5 minutes last night. You remind me of the right wing neocons, Chris, just tell a story to fit your objectives, facts or no facts.  

[Chris]

Powe is a bad matchup against the starting laker big men.  No way around it. 


Could Powe have played against the Laker reserves, yes.  but the linup with Posey out there at PF also worked well in this game against the laker reserves.  And since Pierce and Ray were not sitting in the 2nd half, and the Celtics want Posey or PJ out there, there really wasn't the available minutes for Powe at that point. 

I think Powe is a better matchup on Odom than PJ is.  I don't see all this can't hang with Laker big man discussion.  Before he committed the foul off the busted play on Gasol, he forced him into a very tough shot, and didn't get burned by any of the Laker big men.  That was KG gettng beat by Gasol and Odom had done nothing on Powe.  Although I agree that the small lineup the C's put out there was effective.  I can see running Posey out there as a 4 with the starters, but I just don't see PJ being able to give 20+ minutes. 

PJ was covering Gasol most of the time he was in there.  The put PJ in there, so they could move Garnett off of him.

I also want to add that Powe absolutely effects KG getting beat.  One of the reasons Perk is so important is that he helps KG, and is there as a backup when he does get beat.  This is way too much to ask from either Powe or PJ, but when it comes down to it, PJ is the superior help defender of the two, and also provides a bigger presence down low to protect the basket.

Well Perk wasn't around, Coach.  Great now it's Powe's fault that Garnett, one of the top defensive players in the league, had troubles in the first 5 minutes last night. You remind me of the right wing neocons, Chris, just tell a story to fit your objectives, facts or no facts. 

First off, quit making snide remarks and little attacks.  They are unnecessary, and against the rules.  Consider yourself warned.

As for my post, I was responding to the post that I quoted who said

That was KG gettng beat by Gasol and Odom had done nothing on Powe.

And I disagreed with him, and explained why. 

You are right though, Perk was not an option, but like I said, of the two options of PJ and Powe, PJ was the better option to help the team defensively.

[wdleehi]

Powe is a bad matchup against the starting laker big men.  No way around it. 


Could Powe have played against the Laker reserves, yes.  but the linup with Posey out there at PF also worked well in this game against the laker reserves.  And since Pierce and Ray were not sitting in the 2nd half, and the Celtics want Posey or PJ out there, there really wasn't the available minutes for Powe at that point. 

I think Powe is a better matchup on Odom than PJ is.  I don't see all this can't hang with Laker big man discussion.  Before he committed the foul off the busted play on Gasol, he forced him into a very tough shot, and didn't get burned by any of the Laker big men.  That was KG gettng beat by Gasol and Odom had done nothing on Powe.  Although I agree that the small lineup the C's put out there was effective.  I can see running Posey out there as a 4 with the starters, but I just don't see PJ being able to give 20+ minutes. 

PJ was covering Gasol most of the time he was in there.  The put PJ in there, so they could move Garnett off of him.

I also want to add that Powe absolutely effects KG getting beat.  One of the reasons Perk is so important is that he helps KG, and is there as a backup when he does get beat.  This is way too much to ask from either Powe or PJ, but when it comes down to it, PJ is the superior help defender of the two, and also provides a bigger presence down low to protect the basket.

Well Perk wasn't around, Coach.  Great now it's Powe's fault that Garnett, one of the top defensive players in the league, had troubles in the first 5 minutes last night. You remind me of the right wing neocons, Chris, just tell a story to fit your objectives, facts or no facts. 

He is nailing it. 

With out Perk, Celtics can either go bigger with PJ and put KG on Odom (which I think is the best idea.  KG will shut him off which throws a big wrench in that offense) while PJ can push and bang with Gasol. 


I am starting to lean more and more to Davis over Powe on Gasol.   Celtics have to get Gasol off his spot early in the game.  When they do that, he fades as the game goes on.  After Perkins, Davis is the best chance to push Gasol.  Just as long as Gasol doesn't hit his out side shot.



I wouldn't mind seeing next game, PJ taking Perks spot, Davis taking PJ's spot and Powe going back to the spot he played in games 1-4.   


unless Perk is back.

[cdif911]

I think coaching a pro sports team may be a job where one receives the biggest amount of scrutiny possible (outside of political jobs, but I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole)

can you imagine if you were say a record store owner.  Everytime something is misplaced because a customer picked it up and put it elsewhere, you get 100 people telling you how to do your job... I doubt that happens (if anyone here happens to own a record store, and I mean vinyl, not cd's, let me know if this is true)

imagine if you were a firefighter, everytime you fight a fire or do something great, people are all over you because you didn't save their plasma tv or something ridiculous like that

imagine you're a teacher, everytime you say or do anything someone doesn't agree with, there's a school board meeting, its in the papers, etc. etc.

anyways, I think Doc has it a lot harder than most of us on here, and I think he generally handles it well. 

[Frontierboy]

Powe is a bad matchup against the starting laker big men.  No way around it. 


Could Powe have played against the Laker reserves, yes.  but the linup with Posey out there at PF also worked well in this game against the laker reserves.  And since Pierce and Ray were not sitting in the 2nd half, and the Celtics want Posey or PJ out there, there really wasn't the available minutes for Powe at that point. 

I think Powe is a better matchup on Odom than PJ is.  I don't see all this can't hang with Laker big man discussion.  Before he committed the foul off the busted play on Gasol, he forced him into a very tough shot, and didn't get burned by any of the Laker big men.  That was KG gettng beat by Gasol and Odom had done nothing on Powe.  Although I agree that the small lineup the C's put out there was effective.  I can see running Posey out there as a 4 with the starters, but I just don't see PJ being able to give 20+ minutes. 

PJ was covering Gasol most of the time he was in there.  The put PJ in there, so they could move Garnett off of him.

I also want to add that Powe absolutely effects KG getting beat.  One of the reasons Perk is so important is that he helps KG, and is there as a backup when he does get beat.  This is way too much to ask from either Powe or PJ, but when it comes down to it, PJ is the superior help defender of the two, and also provides a bigger presence down low to protect the basket.

Well Perk wasn't around, Coach.  Great now it's Powe's fault that Garnett, one of the top defensive players in the league, had troubles in the first 5 minutes last night. You remind me of the right wing neocons, Chris, just tell a story to fit your objectives, facts or no facts. 

First off, quit making snide remarks and little attacks.  They are unnecessary, and against the rules.  Consider yourself warned.

As for my post, I was responding to the post that I quoted who said

That was KG gettng beat by Gasol and Odom had done nothing on Powe.

And I disagreed with him, and explained why. 

You are right though, Perk was not an option, but like I said, of the two options of PJ and Powe, PJ was the better option to help the team defensively.

wow, guess we can't debate with mods.......

Anyways, I agree with all of you as each viewpoint has valid arguements........ with Perk out, the entire team needed to adjust their game accordingly and they didn't and that's why we lost the game

[Chris]

Powe is a bad matchup against the starting laker big men.  No way around it. 


Could Powe have played against the Laker reserves, yes.  but the linup with Posey out there at PF also worked well in this game against the laker reserves.  And since Pierce and Ray were not sitting in the 2nd half, and the Celtics want Posey or PJ out there, there really wasn't the available minutes for Powe at that point. 

I think Powe is a better matchup on Odom than PJ is.  I don't see all this can't hang with Laker big man discussion.  Before he committed the foul off the busted play on Gasol, he forced him into a very tough shot, and didn't get burned by any of the Laker big men.  That was KG gettng beat by Gasol and Odom had done nothing on Powe.  Although I agree that the small lineup the C's put out there was effective.  I can see running Posey out there as a 4 with the starters, but I just don't see PJ being able to give 20+ minutes. 

PJ was covering Gasol most of the time he was in there.  The put PJ in there, so they could move Garnett off of him.

I also want to add that Powe absolutely effects KG getting beat.  One of the reasons Perk is so important is that he helps KG, and is there as a backup when he does get beat.  This is way too much to ask from either Powe or PJ, but when it comes down to it, PJ is the superior help defender of the two, and also provides a bigger presence down low to protect the basket.

Well Perk wasn't around, Coach.  Great now it's Powe's fault that Garnett, one of the top defensive players in the league, had troubles in the first 5 minutes last night. You remind me of the right wing neocons, Chris, just tell a story to fit your objectives, facts or no facts. 

First off, quit making snide remarks and little attacks.  They are unnecessary, and against the rules.  Consider yourself warned.

As for my post, I was responding to the post that I quoted who said

That was KG gettng beat by Gasol and Odom had done nothing on Powe.

And I disagreed with him, and explained why. 

You are right though, Perk was not an option, but like I said, of the two options of PJ and Powe, PJ was the better option to help the team defensively.

wow, guess we can't debate with mods.......

Debate all you want, but just because we are mods does not mean that the rules about respecting other posters are thrown out the window when having debates with us. 

[wdleehi]

I think poster needs to remember the difference between debate and trying to talk down to someone with a different opinion.   One is about talking about the subject, the other is talking about the other poster.  End of this side topic on this thread.  If you want to continue this side topic, start a new thread in the appropriate board

[cmoney]

I love the people that consistently judge Leon off of a couple of minutes. First Soap07... Lamar has scored 2 points on Leon this series and Leon's drawn 4 charges. Leon put Lamar on the bench with foul trouble in the 2 games he got minutes. So Leon is owning Lamar there. Second, This was the first time this young guy has ever started a postseason or NBA Finals game in his life. It's going to take a couple minutes to settle in. It's not like coming off the bench at all. I didn't see anyone doing anything during those 5 minutes he was out there. I quite frankly at this point rather see the Celtics going to Leon in the post instead of KG. Leon will at least take it to the hoop hard and draw some fouls. He's played both great offense and great defense there isn't many negative things you could say about him in this series. There's always going to be people doubting Leon but he always proves you people wrong.

PJ Brown is fine if he's subbing in for the 5 spot. But it should have been Leon and and KG most of the time instead of PJ and KG. PJ has no production in this series. He's good to give the starters a rest. 

preach it!  TP for you!

[Roy Hobbs]

wow, guess we can't debate with mods.......

I'm going to echo what Chris and wdleehi said.  Posters can debate with mods as much as they want; our staff has  over 50,000 posts combined, and I assure you, not all of them were from pushing around other posters and stifling debate.

What is not acceptable is resorting to personal insults, demeaning others opinions, or launching into political attacks.  That rule is applied consistently, regardless of whether somebody is a member of this staff or not.

If you or anybody else would like to continue this discussion further, there is a thread stickied at the top of the Comments / Remarks forum.  Otherwise, please keep the criticism on topic.

[footey]

I think Doc should have gone back to Rondo, or put Tony Allen on Farmar, in the 2nd half.  Farmar's quickness really hurt us last night, and Sam and Eddie could not stop him.  To me that was the turning point in the game. The other turning point was Gasol's aggressiveness, but there was no antidote for that, given Kevin's foul trouble and Perk's status.

[cmoney]

PJ plays good defense and rebounds well, but he irks me when he misses point blank shots from within a foot of the rim.  As a 6'10" guy, you'd think that those were gimme baskets.....

PJ doesn't really play good defense, though.  He's constantly either out of position or just too slow to get in position to make the right play.  This often leads to desperation fouls.  Nor is he a good rebounder anymore... he hardly jumps, gets outworked, thus the paltry 6rebs/36min rate.. horrid for a 6'11" dude.

Now, we had no choice last night.  Powe can't body up Gasol (Baby probably could, but I won't go there).  Powe can, however, rebound, score, and get physical with Lamar Odom.  Like, Powe pretty much HAS to play alongside KG if KG is going to guard Gasol. 

It's no surprise that Lamar had his best game of the series (and was arguably the player of the game for the Lakers). 

[Chris]

I think Doc should have gone back to Rondo, or put Tony Allen on Farmar, in the 2nd half.  Farmar's quickness really hurt us last night, and Sam and Eddie could not stop him.  To me that was the turning point in the game. The other turning point was Gasol's aggressiveness, but there was no antidote for that, given Kevin's foul trouble and Perk's status.

I think this was a classic "[dang]ed if you do, [dang]ed if you don't" situation.  If they put Rondo back in, chances are the offense would have been stalled even more, because Kobe would just play center field and force Rondo to shoot the ball (which he seems afraid to do), and if they put Allen in...well, I just don't think they trust Allen late in the game, and I don't blame them.

[cmoney]

My biggest and really only gripe and gaff that Doc had was not calling a timeout in the last minutes of the game when Pierce got the rebound and we were down by 2. I was screaming for a TO to set up a play and secure the tie.

Instead Pierce brings the ball up, Kobe slaps it away, back to Kobe for the jam and the game is essentially over. That was a mistake that late.

Not sure I really agree.  He's just going to call for a high screen and roll anyway.  Timeouts to set up plays are overrated.

PJ Brown may have looked to have a a very mediocre to poor night if you just glance quickly at the box score but his +/- was only a -2. Considering the double digit minus figures almost all the starters got, that's pretty good.

c'mon now.. straight up +/- is a very fluky stat.  It doesn't really say a lot about one game.  However, he's racked up a ton of -8s, -11s, -15s even in the past 2 series.  He needed to play last night, no question about it.  Forgetting completely about Powe is just pathetic.  To add insult to injury, he got Sunday's Worst on ESPN's Daily Dime.  HE ONLY PLAYED 5 MINUTES!

Powe was awful against the bigger Laker starting lineup as Gasol abuse him on switches and Odom was dominant over him. In 4 minutes Powe was a -10. Right move benching him.

Sure.. but you can't ignore him FOR THE REST OF THE GAME when you're already short handed in the front court. Talk about sample size issues.  Lamar chewed up EVERYONE last night.  What about in game 2 when Powe absolutely KILLED Lamar?  We're just going to forget about that?

Love the way Doc keeps these guys mentally in the game and never lets them give up. These comebacks aren't just coincidence they are a product of good motivational coaching and people management, a part of Doc's job that he is awesome at and that at adverse comes to the forefront as he keeps his teams tough and constant when most may give up and falter fast.

On the one hand I agree.. like I loved hearing his speech when Pierce went down in game 1.  However, it's almost a little embarrassing that all we ever hear from his is motivation.  He's like a glorified cheerleader. 

Lots of little things cost the Celtics this game and some of the little things that Doc did were definitely among them. But they played only about 1 1/2 good quarters of basketball, played a large portion of the game with only 2 starters on the floor and still almost won. If the Lakers think that is a good sign going into the Jungle, they are sorely mistaken.

agree with this, and I'm in no way trying to pin this loss on Doc. 

[crownsy]

Timeouts to set up plays are overated?

we consitatnly score on plays out of timeouts. we got 2 layups off inbound plays off time outs last night.

Im sorry, that was a mistake with 2 timeouts avalable. thank god we saved them though, they really helped out when we were deciding who to foul.

Not calling a timeout to set somethign up with 40 seconds left when you've (by my estimate, don't know where to get this stat) already gotten 8 easy points off inbounds plays (TA dunk, The layup, The screen drive to the hole, And the jump shot of the screen) that same night is a mistake in my book.

[cmoney]

I never pulled out the -10, remember, I use my eyes, not stats.  And with my eyes, I saw a guy who was getting pushed around on the boards, and was not in position on defense.

sure, because what's more objective, your eyes or the stats?  All the things you hate Powe for PJ does the exact same thing.. blows rotations and gets lost out there.   On top of that he's a worse rebounder and a big old zero on the offensive end.