Doc mistakes from this game

[Chris]

I think wdleehi also made the point above that *even if* Powe struggled against the Lakers starters, and we can argue about that, he certainly should have been back in the game when the Lakers went to their smaller lineup.  He can killed guys like Walton or Radmonovic when Rad plays the 4 for the Lakers.

Powe was getting killed out there. Too slow for Lamar, too small for Gasol.

Were we watching the same game?  Lamar did nothing, absolutely nothing last night while Powe was guarding him -- and during that time Powe got two tough rebounds in traffic.  After Powe went out, Lamar started being more effective (20/11); PJ can't keep up with him.  Powe did a good job doubling Kobe, and played tough defense on Gasol when he switched on to him -- Gasol only got that 3-point play because one of the C's on the other side of the basket couldn't collect the rebound on Gasol's initial miss.  Powe was doing an okay job setting picks and getting open on the offensive end, too -- I couldn't tell if he fumbled the one pass Rondo threw to him, or if the pass was behind him, but the point is, he'd have quality opportunities if he kept at it.  Instead Doc gave him the hook, and never put him back in, even when we could have used his rebounding and energy.

As for Rondo, I think he'll play somewhat better at home -- he has through most of the playoffs.

I can't argue with that in theory.  The problem is, when the Lakers went to their smaller lineups, the C's were actually playing well against them.  And it is tough to complain about a coach sticking with something that is working.

[wdleehi]

I think wdleehi also made the point above that *even if* Powe struggled against the Lakers starters, and we can argue about that, he certainly should have been back in the game when the Lakers went to their smaller lineup.  He can killed guys like Walton or Radmonovic when Rad plays the 4 for the Lakers.

Powe was getting killed out there. Too slow for Lamar, too small for Gasol.

Were we watching the same game?  Lamar did nothing, absolutely nothing last night while Powe was guarding him -- and during that time Powe got two tough rebounds in traffic.  After Powe went out, Lamar started being more effective (20/11); PJ can't keep up with him.  Powe did a good job doubling Kobe, and played tough defense on Gasol when he switched on to him -- Gasol only got that 3-point play because one of the C's on the other side of the basket couldn't collect the rebound on Gasol's initial miss.  Powe was doing an okay job setting picks and getting open on the offensive end, too -- I couldn't tell if he fumbled the one pass Rondo threw to him, or if the pass was behind him, but the point is, he'd have quality opportunities if he kept at it.  Instead Doc gave him the hook, and never put him back in, even when we could have used his rebounding and energy.

As for Rondo, I think he'll play somewhat better at home -- he has through most of the playoffs.

I can't argue with that in theory.  The problem is, when the Lakers went to their smaller lineups, the C's were actually playing well against them.  And it is tough to complain about a coach sticking with something that is working.

That was the last part of what I originally said as well. 





The team really needs Perk back and able to give them 15+ good, strong inside play. 


The Celtics have lost their biggest advantage, the inside strength.  They get that back, they win so much easier. 

[wdleehi]

If Kobe is covering Rondo, there are two things to take advantage of.

First, we know that Kobe is trying to roam and help out. We need strategies for Rondo to burn Kobe for wandering off him. Rondo can't just stand there and let him play center field. Get the ball to Pierce or Allen, then cut to the hoop when Kobe helps.

Second, this means Fisher, who is maybe 6'0, must cover Ray Allen. We need to isolate Ray on Fisher, and punish him.

I saw no evidence we were prepared to take advantage of either of these things.

The Fisher thing is killing me to.  The Celtics guys are just shooting over him from way outside.  I would like to see them put a drive on him and take him inside. 

[expobear]

Powe wasn't useless.  People always say this when he gets 4 minute opportunities.  He had 2 boards in 5 minutes tonight.  i.e. 1 less than PJ in 25. 

People are just so quick to forget Powe was an absolutely great bench player all season, then when he gets burn he kills the Lakers in game 2. 

Before this game, when you hear that Perk is hurt, do you expect MORE Leon or LESS Leon?  Giving him minutes is just common sense.  When KG is out there, the matchups are better with Leon, and it gives PJ some needed rest given the extended minutes he was forced to play in the first half. 

He was getting absolutely abused inside in those 4 minutes.  I actually thought he would do well with the starters, but he simply looked like he didn't belong. 

Yes, Doc could have gone back to him later...but they were playing much better without him.  I can't blame Doc for that.

Chris,

You really don't like Powe, do you?

Kobe scored 5, Gasol scored 2 off of Garnett to start the game, Fisher hit a 3, Radmovic hit a layup and on the play where Powe was taken out, Powe actually defended Gasol pretty well but the ball was deflected back to Gasol for a second chance opportunity.
Now to pull out the -10 on Powe and say he played atrociously is unfair.  Last I remember, the Celtics play team defense and it basically sucked the whole first quarter.  Does it warrant Powe sitting for 43 minutes? No because what it does is make Powe out to be the bad guy here, like he was responsible for the poor play.  He should have at least played a few minutes in the second half to show that he wasn't the sole reason for their terrible start. And it wasn't like Brown was doing such a great job either because Gasol ending up having one of his better games of the series.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

The small lineup did play "fine" against the Lakers small lineup.  But in the 3rd quarter when the Lakers were small and the Celtics weren't making up ground.  Or early in the 4th quarter.  That was the time to bring Powe back in. . .

I think wdleehi also made the point above that *even if* Powe struggled against the Lakers starters, and we can argue about that, he certainly should have been back in the game when the Lakers went to their smaller lineup.  He can killed guys like Walton or Radmonovic when Rad plays the 4 for the Lakers.

Powe was getting killed out there. Too slow for Lamar, too small for Gasol.

Were we watching the same game?  Lamar did nothing, absolutely nothing last night while Powe was guarding him -- and during that time Powe got two tough rebounds in traffic.  After Powe went out, Lamar started being more effective (20/11); PJ can't keep up with him.  Powe did a good job doubling Kobe, and played tough defense on Gasol when he switched on to him -- Gasol only got that 3-point play because one of the C's on the other side of the basket couldn't collect the rebound on Gasol's initial miss.  Powe was doing an okay job setting picks and getting open on the offensive end, too -- I couldn't tell if he fumbled the one pass Rondo threw to him, or if the pass was behind him, but the point is, he'd have quality opportunities if he kept at it.  Instead Doc gave him the hook, and never put him back in, even when we could have used his rebounding and energy.

As for Rondo, I think he'll play somewhat better at home -- he has through most of the playoffs.

I can't argue with that in theory.  The problem is, when the Lakers went to their smaller lineups, the C's were actually playing well against them.  And it is tough to complain about a coach sticking with something that is working.

That was the last part of what I originally said as well. 





The team really needs Perk back and able to give them 15+ good, strong inside play. 


The Celtics have lost their biggest advantage, the inside strength.  They get that back, they win so much easier. 

[WedmanIsMyHero]

So then run isolation plays for Allen on the wing and have him go to the hole?  Or run the pick and roll more with him and Garnett than Pierce and Garnett?

If Kobe is covering Rondo, there are two things to take advantage of.

First, we know that Kobe is trying to roam and help out. We need strategies for Rondo to burn Kobe for wandering off him. Rondo can't just stand there and let him play center field. Get the ball to Pierce or Allen, then cut to the hoop when Kobe helps.

Second, this means Fisher, who is maybe 6'0, must cover Ray Allen. We need to isolate Ray on Fisher, and punish him.

I saw no evidence we were prepared to take advantage of either of these things.

The Fisher thing is killing me to.  The Celtics guys are just shooting over him from way outside.  I would like to see them put a drive on him and take him inside. 

[wdleehi]

So then run isolation plays for Allen on the wing and have him go to the hole?  Or run the pick and roll more with him and Garnett than Pierce and Garnett?

If Kobe is covering Rondo, there are two things to take advantage of.

First, we know that Kobe is trying to roam and help out. We need strategies for Rondo to burn Kobe for wandering off him. Rondo can't just stand there and let him play center field. Get the ball to Pierce or Allen, then cut to the hoop when Kobe helps.

Second, this means Fisher, who is maybe 6'0, must cover Ray Allen. We need to isolate Ray on Fisher, and punish him.

I saw no evidence we were prepared to take advantage of either of these things.

The Fisher thing is killing me to.  The Celtics guys are just shooting over him from way outside.  I would like to see them put a drive on him and take him inside. 

Either way. 

And if Pierce has him, post him up. 

[Chris]

Powe wasn't useless.  People always say this when he gets 4 minute opportunities.  He had 2 boards in 5 minutes tonight.  i.e. 1 less than PJ in 25. 

People are just so quick to forget Powe was an absolutely great bench player all season, then when he gets burn he kills the Lakers in game 2. 

Before this game, when you hear that Perk is hurt, do you expect MORE Leon or LESS Leon?  Giving him minutes is just common sense.  When KG is out there, the matchups are better with Leon, and it gives PJ some needed rest given the extended minutes he was forced to play in the first half. 

He was getting absolutely abused inside in those 4 minutes.  I actually thought he would do well with the starters, but he simply looked like he didn't belong. 

Yes, Doc could have gone back to him later...but they were playing much better without him.  I can't blame Doc for that.

Chris,

You really don't like Powe, do you?

Kobe scored 5, Gasol scored 2 off of Garnett to start the game, Fisher hit a 3, Radmovic hit a layup and on the play where Powe was taken out, Powe actually defended Gasol pretty well but the ball was deflected back to Gasol for a second chance opportunity.
Now to pull out the -10 on Powe and say he played atrociously is unfair.  Last I remember, the Celtics play team defense and it basically sucked the whole first quarter.  Does it warrant Powe sitting for 43 minutes? No because what it does is make Powe out to be the bad guy here, like he was responsible for the poor play.  He should have at least played a few minutes in the second half to show that he wasn't the sole reason for their terrible start. And it wasn't like Brown was doing such a great job either because Gasol ending up having one of his better games of the series.

I never pulled out the -10, remember, I use my eyes, not stats.  And with my eyes, I saw a guy who was getting pushed around on the boards, and was not in position on defense.

[Chris]

So then run isolation plays for Allen on the wing and have him go to the hole?  Or run the pick and roll more with him and Garnett than Pierce and Garnett?

If Kobe is covering Rondo, there are two things to take advantage of.

First, we know that Kobe is trying to roam and help out. We need strategies for Rondo to burn Kobe for wandering off him. Rondo can't just stand there and let him play center field. Get the ball to Pierce or Allen, then cut to the hoop when Kobe helps.

Second, this means Fisher, who is maybe 6'0, must cover Ray Allen. We need to isolate Ray on Fisher, and punish him.

I saw no evidence we were prepared to take advantage of either of these things.

The Fisher thing is killing me to.  The Celtics guys are just shooting over him from way outside.  I would like to see them put a drive on him and take him inside. 

Either way. 

And if Pierce has him, post him up. 

I agree on this.  they need to take more advantage of Fisher.  If they are going to put him on a bigger/better player like Pierce or Allen, then they need to be attacking him.

The problem is though, I believe (I might be wrong though) they were only using Fisher on Allen when Rondo was in there.  And that means that Kobe was roaming around, killing everything by clogging the lane or doubling the post.

[powefan]

Powe wasn't useless.  People always say this when he gets 4 minute opportunities.  He had 2 boards in 5 minutes tonight.  i.e. 1 less than PJ in 25. 

People are just so quick to forget Powe was an absolutely great bench player all season, then when he gets burn he kills the Lakers in game 2. 

Before this game, when you hear that Perk is hurt, do you expect MORE Leon or LESS Leon?  Giving him minutes is just common sense.  When KG is out there, the matchups are better with Leon, and it gives PJ some needed rest given the extended minutes he was forced to play in the first half. 

He was getting absolutely abused inside in those 4 minutes.  I actually thought he would do well with the starters, but he simply looked like he didn't belong. 

Yes, Doc could have gone back to him later...but they were playing much better without him.  I can't blame Doc for that.

Chris,

You really don't like Powe, do you?

Kobe scored 5, Gasol scored 2 off of Garnett to start the game, Fisher hit a 3, Radmovic hit a layup and on the play where Powe was taken out, Powe actually defended Gasol pretty well but the ball was deflected back to Gasol for a second chance opportunity.
Now to pull out the -10 on Powe and say he played atrociously is unfair.  Last I remember, the Celtics play team defense and it basically sucked the whole first quarter.  Does it warrant Powe sitting for 43 minutes? No because what it does is make Powe out to be the bad guy here, like he was responsible for the poor play.  He should have at least played a few minutes in the second half to show that he wasn't the sole reason for their terrible start. And it wasn't like Brown was doing such a great job either because Gasol ending up having one of his better games of the series.

RIght-on expobear.  Leon did play Gasol well and you can't pin the -10 on Leon.  Don't forget in the first 4 minutes that Pierce traveled and had a shot blocked, Garnett had the ball stolen from him by Kobe, Rondo gave the ball away with a bad pass and the team shot 2 for 8.  Garnett was the one getting abused by Gasol.  The one play where he looked bad was on Gasol's offensive rebound--he wasn't ready when the ball deflected towards him.  I believe all the starters were a -10 at the time Leon was taken out.  The Laker lead was pushed to 18 with Leon on the bench.  I would have liked to see Leon out there instead of PJ when PJ gave nothing on the offensive end, only grabbed 3 rebounds and was too slow time and again to stay with Odom.

[wdleehi]

Powe is a bad matchup against the starting laker big men.  No way around it. 


Could Powe have played against the Laker reserves, yes.  but the linup with Posey out there at PF also worked well in this game against the laker reserves.  And since Pierce and Ray were not sitting in the 2nd half, and the Celtics want Posey or PJ out there, there really wasn't the available minutes for Powe at that point. 

[powefan]

Powe is a bad matchup against the starting laker big men.  No way around it. 


Could Powe have played against the Laker reserves, yes.  but the linup with Posey out there at PF also worked well in this game against the laker reserves.  And since Pierce and Ray were not sitting in the 2nd half, and the Celtics want Posey or PJ out there, there really wasn't the available minutes for Powe at that point. 

I think Powe is a better matchup on Odom than PJ is.  I don't see all this can't hang with Laker big man discussion.  Before he committed the foul off the busted play on Gasol, he forced him into a very tough shot, and didn't get burned by any of the Laker big men.  That was KG gettng beat by Gasol and Odom had done nothing on Powe.  Although I agree that the small lineup the C's put out there was effective.  I can see running Posey out there as a 4 with the starters, but I just don't see PJ being able to give 20+ minutes. 

[Chris]

Powe is a bad matchup against the starting laker big men.  No way around it. 


Could Powe have played against the Laker reserves, yes.  but the linup with Posey out there at PF also worked well in this game against the laker reserves.  And since Pierce and Ray were not sitting in the 2nd half, and the Celtics want Posey or PJ out there, there really wasn't the available minutes for Powe at that point. 

I think Powe is a better matchup on Odom than PJ is.  I don't see all this can't hang with Laker big man discussion.  Before he committed the foul off the busted play on Gasol, he forced him into a very tough shot, and didn't get burned by any of the Laker big men.  That was KG gettng beat by Gasol and Odom had done nothing on Powe.  Although I agree that the small lineup the C's put out there was effective.  I can see running Posey out there as a 4 with the starters, but I just don't see PJ being able to give 20+ minutes. 

PJ was covering Gasol most of the time he was in there.  The put PJ in there, so they could move Garnett off of him.

I also want to add that Powe absolutely effects KG getting beat.  One of the reasons Perk is so important is that he helps KG, and is there as a backup when he does get beat.  This is way too much to ask from either Powe or PJ, but when it comes down to it, PJ is the superior help defender of the two, and also provides a bigger presence down low to protect the basket.

[expobear]

Powe is a bad matchup against the starting laker big men.  No way around it. 


Could Powe have played against the Laker reserves, yes.  but the linup with Posey out there at PF also worked well in this game against the laker reserves.  And since Pierce and Ray were not sitting in the 2nd half, and the Celtics want Posey or PJ out there, there really wasn't the available minutes for Powe at that point. 

Powe should play 10-12 minutes. Brown is fine but he played 25 minutes last night scoring 4 pts and grabbing 3 boards. Powe could have done at least that if not better.
It's ok if Brown is the first big off the bench and/or gets more minutes than Powe, but his play hasn't warranted Powe getting fewer minutes.....and that's all throughout the playoffs, as far as I'm concerned.

[wdleehi]

Powe is a bad matchup against the starting laker big men.  No way around it. 


Could Powe have played against the Laker reserves, yes.  but the linup with Posey out there at PF also worked well in this game against the laker reserves.  And since Pierce and Ray were not sitting in the 2nd half, and the Celtics want Posey or PJ out there, there really wasn't the available minutes for Powe at that point. 

Powe should play 10-12 minutes. Brown is fine but he played 25 minutes last night scoring 4 pts and grabbing 3 boards. Powe could have done at least that if not better.
It's ok if Brown is the first big off the bench and/or gets more minutes than Powe, but his play hasn't warranted Powe getting fewer minutes.....and that's all throughout the playoffs, as far as I'm concerned.

i said Powe could have played against the Laker reserves.  He seems to have an advantage.


but the small team the Celtics used at that point was very successful.  I can't blame them for trying it again.



PJ did play a few to many minutes.  But what other option is there to throw at Gasol without Perk. 


That's what the team needed.  15 minutes of Perk.