Author Topic: Doc mistakes from this game  (Read 17329 times)

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Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2008, 07:58:03 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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reality disagrees with you.

this isn't a new strategy, the've been doing it since atlanta. And, not suprisingly, rondo has struggled on the road against the double off.

yet rondo's splits are night and day home vs away. he plays much better at home, games one and 2 he did fine, and despite ESPN's love of phil jackson, and declaring this a brillant new strategy he developed in game 3, rondo's defender has been roaming off him in games 1 and 2 too.

love how you rip the starting role off him after one bad game though, over react much?

as i said, of course you start him, he's our best PG. but, keep a short leash on him if he struggles.

You seem to forget that Rondo's inability to score the basketball had a MASSIVE role in the Thursday problems as well. Not to mention the fact that he did bother to attack the rim in earlier series - something he steadfastly refuses to do in the last two games. His judgment with the basketball has been atrocious in the last two games.

Feel free to disagree - clearly Doc doesn't. How many minutes did he play in the last quarter and a half? If he continues to bog the offense down the Lakers will make a serious run at winning this series.
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Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2008, 08:09:40 AM »

Offline Barnabas

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If he made any mistake it was giving Rondo too much time. I thought Cassell was fine in his time on the floor, especially in the first half where he ran the club the way Rondo's supposed to be doing.

The bigger problem we have now is Rondo's offensive ineptitude and how it leaves us 4 on 5. I question right now whether he should even start Tuesday's game.

I agree completely.  Rondo should not have played nearly that long.  He's been ineffective against the Lakers.  He should have been benched sooner and never returned back to the game.  I thought Sam Cassell played a decent game.  Sure, he took a shot and missed but he also made a couple of key baskets. 

Rondo should start the game on Tuesday, for continuity.  Perkins is already out, so we don't need to make any more changes.  However, Rondo should be benched as soon as it becomes clear that the Lakers will double off on him.  And he should stay on that bench.  Paul Pierce has shown that he can be an effective ballhandler even in a high pressure situation.  Ray Allen is also competent in that regard.  Maybe he can bring up the ball and Eddie can play at the 2 spot.

Rondo has trade value.  Maybe we can use him in a package to get another offensive weapon for our bench.  Milwaukee is in a rebuilding phase and can afford to take on a long-term project like Rondo.  Maybe we can package Rondo, Scal, and the First round draft pick for Yi Jianlian.  Yi has tons of talent.  He seems like a much better version of Radmanovic, and he can block shots.  And then use the MLE to get a veteran PG who can hit the outside shot.  I'm convinced we can keep Posey by extending his contract, without having to raise the yearly salary.

Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2008, 08:12:39 AM »

Offline connerhenry43

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i thought the biggest mistake was this:

1 point game, 3rd quarter, lakers clearly on the ropes. rondo makes a nice play, ties up fisher for a jump ball. c's were playing great defense. fisher somehow wins the jump ball, but there is only 8 on the shot clock. they swing it back to fisher, who has nothing. he takes a jump shot, rondo inexcuseably fouls him, fisher banks it in, makes the FT, 4 point game.

i was on the phone with my brother, imploring doc to get rondo out of the game. that is inexcuseable in that situation to foul a jump shooter. it would get any high school player benched. they leave rondo in, he predictably comes down and makes a brutal turnover, radmonivich hits a three, lead back up to 7.

this is a lot on rondo, but also on doc. rondo is probbaly not 100%, and should be on a short leash. as soon as that terrible foul was commited, it should have been pine time. but he stuck with him one possession too long, and i think it cost us.
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Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2008, 08:12:44 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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Two big mistakes that I saw Doc make last night.

1.  Not playing Tony Allen in the 2nd half when he was very effective in the first half.

2.  Only playing Powe 4 minutes.  He didn't even give the guy enough time to make an impact, even when PJ wasn't doing anything.  Powe would definitely have scored more points and grabbed more rebounds than PJ.
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Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2008, 08:22:37 AM »

Offline Bahku

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Two big mistakes that I saw Doc make last night.

1.  Not playing Tony Allen in the 2nd half when he was very effective in the first half.

2.  Only playing Powe 4 minutes.  He didn't even give the guy enough time to make an impact, even when PJ wasn't doing anything.  Powe would definitely have scored more points and grabbed more rebounds than PJ.

I agree ... Tony was actually effective last night, and should have been used some in the second half ... very strange. Powe should have played more as well, and I would have like to have seen Big Baby take on Gasol a bit, to just be physical with the guy and waste a couple fouls.
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Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2008, 08:52:23 AM »

Offline 2short

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First I agree with bahku, my thoughts exactly.  Powe didn't look good, but why only 5 minutes?  Davis could have helped against gasol.  Tony Allen looked really good 1st half.
So I guess I'm going to defend Doc  :-\
He played Tony and it helped, tony hasn't seen court much at all, so points for doc on that one.  His timeout calling was good when momentum needed a stop.  Also doc or PP have found a HUGE chink in LA's armor, they can't stop a drive to save their lives.  So Boston fans lets see the next game in the garden for GREAT defense and take the ball to the whole.
I think Doc has done well against Jackson honestly, this might be the best series he's coaced us for the entire playoffs.

Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2008, 08:58:50 AM »

Offline Frontierboy

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PJ plays good defense and rebounds well, but he irks me when he misses point blank shots from within a foot of the rim.  As a 6'10" guy, you'd think that those were gimme baskets.....

Rondo should not have been playing at all in this game besides during situational time..... the Lakers have learned how to shut him down so we need to play more House......

I honestly think this game needed Scal in it for his defense.......

Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2008, 09:22:14 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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My biggest and really only gripe and gaff that Doc had was not calling a timeout in the last minutes of the game when Pierce got the rebound and we were down by 2. I was screaming for a TO to set up a play and secure the tie.

Instead Pierce brings the ball up, Kobe slaps it away, back to Kobe for the jam and the game is essentially over. That was a mistake that late.

Other than that, I thought his use of Cassell was perfect. Cassell was a +23, highest +/- on the team by 14 points.

PJ Brown may have looked to have a a very mediocre to poor night if you just glance quickly at the box score but his +/- was only a -2. Considering the double digit minus figures almost all the starters got, that's pretty good.

Powe was awful against the bigger Laker starting lineup as Gasol abuse him on switches and Odom was dominant over him. In 4 minutes Powe was a -10. Right move benching him.

Pretty tough to complain about the job that Doc did between the time Garnett got his second foul to the end of the half. In that time Doc effectively played without 3 of his starters the entire time and closed a 19 point lead to 3. And then did the same thing at the beginning of the fourth helping keep the team focussed and hungry which allowed them to cut a 14 point deficit to a 2 point lead.

Love the way Doc keeps these guys mentally in the game and never lets them give up. These comebacks aren't just coincidence they are a product of good motivational coaching and people management, a part of Doc's job that he is awesome at and that at adverse comes to the forefront as he keeps his teams tough and constant when most may give up and falter fast.

Lots of little things cost the Celtics this game and some of the little things that Doc did were definitely among them. But they played only about 1 1/2 good quarters of basketball, played a large portion of the game with only 2 starters on the floor and still almost won. If the Lakers think that is a good sign going into the Jungle, they are sorely mistaken.

Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2008, 09:26:14 AM »

Offline Chris

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Powe wasn't useless.  People always say this when he gets 4 minute opportunities.  He had 2 boards in 5 minutes tonight.  i.e. 1 less than PJ in 25. 

People are just so quick to forget Powe was an absolutely great bench player all season, then when he gets burn he kills the Lakers in game 2. 

Before this game, when you hear that Perk is hurt, do you expect MORE Leon or LESS Leon?  Giving him minutes is just common sense.  When KG is out there, the matchups are better with Leon, and it gives PJ some needed rest given the extended minutes he was forced to play in the first half. 

He was getting absolutely abused inside in those 4 minutes.  I actually thought he would do well with the starters, but he simply looked like he didn't belong. 

Yes, Doc could have gone back to him later...but they were playing much better without him.  I can't blame Doc for that.

Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2008, 09:28:13 AM »

Offline td450

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As badly as Rondo has played recently, I'm stunned that some think we can somehow bench him and move on. Suddenly deciding your point guard is inadequate in the 5th game of the championship series is madness. He needs to be coached, not benched for the balance of the series.

Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2008, 09:29:53 AM »

Offline MattD

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Powe was getting killed out there. Too slow for Lamar, too small for Gasol.

Were we watching the same game?  Lamar did nothing, absolutely nothing last night while Powe was guarding him -- and during that time Powe got two tough rebounds in traffic.  After Powe went out, Lamar started being more effective (20/11); PJ can't keep up with him.  Powe did a good job doubling Kobe, and played tough defense on Gasol when he switched on to him -- Gasol only got that 3-point play because one of the C's on the other side of the basket couldn't collect the rebound on Gasol's initial miss.  Powe was doing an okay job setting picks and getting open on the offensive end, too -- I couldn't tell if he fumbled the one pass Rondo threw to him, or if the pass was behind him, but the point is, he'd have quality opportunities if he kept at it.  Instead Doc gave him the hook, and never put him back in, even when we could have used his rebounding and energy.

As for Rondo, I think he'll play somewhat better at home -- he has through most of the playoffs.

Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2008, 09:32:45 AM »

Offline Chris

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You seem to forget that Rondo's inability to score the basketball had a MASSIVE role in the Thursday problems as well. Not to mention the fact that he did bother to attack the rim in earlier series - something he steadfastly refuses to do in the last two games. His judgment with the basketball has been atrocious in the last two games.

Feel free to disagree - clearly Doc doesn't. How many minutes did he play in the last quarter and a half? If he continues to bog the offense down the Lakers will make a serious run at winning this series.

I agree that Rondo was inneffective, but I don't think it had to do with him not attacking the rim.  It is tough to attack the rim when the guy covering you is playing 10 feet away, and is basically playing a one man zone to clog the lane. 

Rondo did attack the rim in his few minutes last night, and he consistently got cutoff, and blocked a couple of times.

Rondo simply got gameplanned out of the game.  The only way to attack it would have been taking the open jumpers he was given.  He didn't take them, and played right into the Lakers hands.

As badly as Rondo has played recently, I'm stunned that some think we can somehow bench him and move on. Suddenly deciding your point guard is inadequate in the 5th game of the championship series is madness. He needs to be coached, not benched for the balance of the series.

Its not about inadequacy, it is about countering to the adjustment that the Lakers made.  Rondo was destroying them in the first two games, because they were playing up on him, allowing him to get in the paint and pick apart the defense.  The Zen Faker decided to make an adjustment by putting Kobe on him, and basically ignoring him, in order to take away the drive and dish/kick, as well as the entry pass.  At this point, the best way to defeat that is to sit Rondo, and put in a shooter.

Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2008, 09:54:37 AM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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I think wdleehi also made the point above that *even if* Powe struggled against the Lakers starters, and we can argue about that, he certainly should have been back in the game when the Lakers went to their smaller lineup.  He can killed guys like Walton or Radmonovic when Rad plays the 4 for the Lakers.

Powe was getting killed out there. Too slow for Lamar, too small for Gasol.

Were we watching the same game?  Lamar did nothing, absolutely nothing last night while Powe was guarding him -- and during that time Powe got two tough rebounds in traffic.  After Powe went out, Lamar started being more effective (20/11); PJ can't keep up with him.  Powe did a good job doubling Kobe, and played tough defense on Gasol when he switched on to him -- Gasol only got that 3-point play because one of the C's on the other side of the basket couldn't collect the rebound on Gasol's initial miss.  Powe was doing an okay job setting picks and getting open on the offensive end, too -- I couldn't tell if he fumbled the one pass Rondo threw to him, or if the pass was behind him, but the point is, he'd have quality opportunities if he kept at it.  Instead Doc gave him the hook, and never put him back in, even when we could have used his rebounding and energy.

As for Rondo, I think he'll play somewhat better at home -- he has through most of the playoffs.

Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2008, 10:02:08 AM »

Offline crownsy

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reality disagrees with you.

this isn't a new strategy, the've been doing it since atlanta. And, not suprisingly, rondo has struggled on the road against the double off.

yet rondo's splits are night and day home vs away. he plays much better at home, games one and 2 he did fine, and despite ESPN's love of phil jackson, and declaring this a brillant new strategy he developed in game 3, rondo's defender has been roaming off him in games 1 and 2 too.

love how you rip the starting role off him after one bad game though, over react much?

as i said, of course you start him, he's our best PG. but, keep a short leash on him if he struggles.

You seem to forget that Rondo's inability to score the basketball had a MASSIVE role in the Thursday problems as well. Not to mention the fact that he did bother to attack the rim in earlier series - something he steadfastly refuses to do in the last two games. His judgment with the basketball has been atrocious in the last two games.

Feel free to disagree - clearly Doc doesn't. How many minutes did he play in the last quarter and a half? If he continues to bog the offense down the Lakers will make a serious run at winning this series.

no, i didnt forget...in fact i gave that to you as a givin.

what does him struggling in thrusdays game (road) have to do witht he fact that he plays better at home, my entire point?
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Re: Doc mistakes from this game
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2008, 10:24:54 AM »

Offline td450

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If Kobe is covering Rondo, there are two things to take advantage of.

First, we know that Kobe is trying to roam and help out. We need strategies for Rondo to burn Kobe for wandering off him. Rondo can't just stand there and let him play center field. Get the ball to Pierce or Allen, then cut to the hoop when Kobe helps.

Second, this means Fisher, who is maybe 6'0, must cover Ray Allen. We need to isolate Ray on Fisher, and punish him.

I saw no evidence we were prepared to take advantage of either of these things.