Powe needs to play big minutes.

[JumpingJudkins]

When was the last time Leon was crappy? Sometimes Doc won't play him, or pulls him after a couple of minutes, but Leon has been one of the most consistently productive players on the entire roster. Check out Hollinger's PER stats -- Leon is 22nd in the whole leauge, behind only Garnett on the Celts. He is just an incredibly efficient player because he doesn't try to do more than he's capable of. He hits the boards hard, finishes extremely well inside and doesn't turn the ball over.

If he misses a defensive rotation or two, he more than makes up for it with offensive boards. Could he keep up the same pace for 35 minutes a game? Probably not, but he adds so much to the team, there's never an excuse not to give him 15-20 minutes. Yes, even ahead of the legendary PJ Brown.

He would foul out.

We need Perkins/PJ Brown size and defensive presence.

Powe is still very inconsistent from game to game. Yesterday, he was great; tomorrow he can be crappy. One never knows. There's no point in keeping him in the floor if he's not scoring/drawing fouls.

[Chris]

When was the last time Leon was crappy? Sometimes Doc won't play him, or pulls him after a couple of minutes, but Leon has been one of the most consistently productive players on the entire roster. Check out Hollinger's PER stats -- Leon is 22nd in the whole leauge, behind only Garnett on the Celts. He is just an incredibly efficient player because he doesn't try to do more than he's capable of. He hits the boards hard, finishes extremely well inside and doesn't turn the ball over.

If he misses a defensive rotation or two, he more than makes up for it with offensive boards. Could he keep up the same pace for 35 minutes a game? Probably not, but he adds so much to the team, there's never an excuse not to give him 15-20 minutes. Yes, even ahead of the legendary PJ Brown.

He would foul out.

We need Perkins/PJ Brown size and defensive presence.

Powe is still very inconsistent from game to game. Yesterday, he was great; tomorrow he can be crappy. One never knows. There's no point in keeping him in the floor if he's not scoring/drawing fouls.

He played crappy in game 1 of the Detroit series, and then played just as bad in the first two minutes he was in there in game 2 before getting pulled.

Attribute to what you want, I personally think it was matchups more than inconsistency...but either way, he didn't play well.

Those are the only games I remember specifically, although I do remember that he was very disapointing overall for much of the Atlanta series.  He played great in game 1, and then basically disapeared for a few games (despite playing minutes).

[JumpingJudkins]

His eight minutes in game one against the Pistons? And then he did so much to hurt the team in two minutes of another game? Yes, that certainly trumps an entire half season where he was the most productive player on the bench.

[expobear]

When was the last time Leon was crappy? Sometimes Doc won't play him, or pulls him after a couple of minutes, but Leon has been one of the most consistently productive players on the entire roster. Check out Hollinger's PER stats -- Leon is 22nd in the whole leauge, behind only Garnett on the Celts. He is just an incredibly efficient player because he doesn't try to do more than he's capable of. He hits the boards hard, finishes extremely well inside and doesn't turn the ball over.

If he misses a defensive rotation or two, he more than makes up for it with offensive boards. Could he keep up the same pace for 35 minutes a game? Probably not, but he adds so much to the team, there's never an excuse not to give him 15-20 minutes. Yes, even ahead of the legendary PJ Brown.

He would foul out.

We need Perkins/PJ Brown size and defensive presence.

Powe is still very inconsistent from game to game. Yesterday, he was great; tomorrow he can be crappy. One never knows. There's no point in keeping him in the floor if he's not scoring/drawing fouls.

He played crappy in game 1 of the Detroit series, and then played just as bad in the first two minutes he was in there in game 2 before getting pulled.

Attribute to what you want, I personally think it was matchups more than inconsistency...but either way, he didn't play well.

Those are the only games I remember specifically, although I do remember that he was very disapointing overall for much of the Atlanta series.  He played great in game 1, and then basically disapeared for a few games (despite playing minutes).

Powe played 8 minutes in game 1 against Detroit, score 4 points on 1-1 from the field and 2 for 2 from the line, grabbing 2 boards.  In game 2, Powe played 3 minutes, did not take any shots and grabbed 2 boards.  Maybe Powe missed a rotation, who knows, but how can you or Bud determine Powe played crappy from 11 minutes of playing time over two games?

Against Atlanta, Powe averaged 7.8 and 4 if you kick out game 3 where he played 6 minutes. I don't think anybody is expecting Powe to average a double double in the playoffs because that's the big three's job to do so. But to say Powe played poorly in the playoffs is not really substantiated by anything but your opinion. Powe did exactly what he was supposed to when give enough minutes.

[kozlodoev]

How is it determined that Powe is inconsistent

By watching the 82 regular season games. And then some playoff games.

Even if you kick game 3 from the Atlanta series, he still did very little in extended minutes in games 2 and 4, and when this pattern reappeared in the Cleveland series he lost his rotation spot. For the more attentive, this pattern wasn't foreign to his performance over the regular season.

Powe can be a contributor, but there's no such thing as guaranteed minutes.

[expobear]

How is it determined that Powe is inconsistent

By watching the 82 regular season games. And then some playoff games.

The only inconsistency with Powe's game is playing time.

[kozlodoev]

How is it determined that Powe is inconsistent

By watching the 82 regular season games. And then some playoff games.

The only inconsistency with Powe's game is playing time.

Scroll back to see my edit. There have been multiple games in these playoffs where Powe did very little in ~15 minutes of playing time.

[celticsfan8591]

Powe had a good game last night, but lets not get carried away.  Most of his points were a product of the Lakers not paying attention to him.  Now that he's proven that he can make uncontested shots within 5 feet of the basket, I doubt that he'll be scoring 21 points.  I think he should play because he's a good rebounder and energy guy, but he should not be starting over Perk.  Perk can D up, rebound, and he can score at times too.

[expobear]

Powe had a good game last night, but lets not get carried away.  Most of his points were a product of the Lakers not paying attention to him.  Now that he's proven that he can make uncontested shots within 5 feet of the basket, I doubt that he'll be scoring 21 points.  I think he should play because he's a good rebounder and energy guy, but he should not be starting over Perk.  Perk can D up, rebound, and he can score at times too.

All I want is for Powe to play 10-12 minutes a game. If he is playing well, then more. I don't think he should start but he then again, he shouldn't play 0 to 3 minutes either. This is all in the Celtics best interest. Powe will probably never be a superstar, but he is the type of player that will help teams win games.   

[BudweiserCeltic]

When was the last time Leon was crappy? Sometimes Doc won't play him, or pulls him after a couple of minutes, but Leon has been one of the most consistently productive players on the entire roster. Check out Hollinger's PER stats -- Leon is 22nd in the whole leauge, behind only Garnett on the Celts. He is just an incredibly efficient player because he doesn't try to do more than he's capable of. He hits the boards hard, finishes extremely well inside and doesn't turn the ball over.

If he misses a defensive rotation or two, he more than makes up for it with offensive boards. Could he keep up the same pace for 35 minutes a game? Probably not, but he adds so much to the team, there's never an excuse not to give him 15-20 minutes. Yes, even ahead of the legendary PJ Brown.

He would foul out.

We need Perkins/PJ Brown size and defensive presence.

Powe is still very inconsistent from game to game. Yesterday, he was great; tomorrow he can be crappy. One never knows. There's no point in keeping him in the floor if he's not scoring/drawing fouls.

He played crappy in game 1 of the Detroit series, and then played just as bad in the first two minutes he was in there in game 2 before getting pulled.

Attribute to what you want, I personally think it was matchups more than inconsistency...but either way, he didn't play well.

Those are the only games I remember specifically, although I do remember that he was very disapointing overall for much of the Atlanta series.  He played great in game 1, and then basically disapeared for a few games (despite playing minutes).

Powe played 8 minutes in game 1 against Detroit, score 4 points on 1-1 from the field and 2 for 2 from the line, grabbing 2 boards.  In game 2, Powe played 3 minutes, did not take any shots and grabbed 2 boards.  Maybe Powe missed a rotation, who knows, but how can you or Bud determine Powe played crappy from 11 minutes of playing time over two games?

Against Atlanta, Powe averaged 7.8 and 4 if you kick out game 3 where he played 6 minutes. I don't think anybody is expecting Powe to average a double double in the playoffs because that's the big three's job to do so. But to say Powe played poorly in the playoffs is not really substantiated by anything but your opinion. Powe did exactly what he was supposed to when give enough minutes.

Averages are insignificant when talking about consistency, so let's stop with those stats. Now let's take a look at the games in which he played and how he peformed. Keep in mind that I don't remember the specifics of all of them, so we can assume for the most part that his defensive rotations were poor because that's been my impression of him through most of the playoffs:

ATL Game 1: 24 minutes, 4 rebounds, 10 points - Alright with his scoring, but did a poor job rebounding the ball.
ATL Game 2: 14 mimutes, 3 rebounds, 3 points - Poor game.
ATL Game 3: 06 minutes, 0 rebounds, 0 points - Poor game, did anyone see Leon play? I couldn't find him on the court. Just awful.
ATL Game 4: 22 minutes, 2 rebounds, 3 points - Once again, a disappearing act from Leon even though Doc gave him extended minutes after 2 awful games to give him a chance. He blew his opportunity.
ATL Game 5: 23 minutes, 7 rebounds, 10 points - Can the real Leon please stand up? Finally he shows what's he's capable of in the playoffs.
ATL Game 6: 15 minutes, 4 rebounds, 9 points - Good/decent game. Was productive offensively, but would've liked him to rebound a bit better.
ATL Game 7: 20 minutes, 4 rebounds, 12 points - Another good productive game offensively, but where are those rebounds?

Series summary: Poor series in the beginning overall, heated up towards the end... but lets keep in mind that most if not all of his good games came in games that were complete blowouts and he wasn't needed. In tight games, he layed complete eggs when we needed him the most. For the most part, he was out hustled by a young Atlanta team that seemed to want the ball more in regards to rebounds. Where is this so called consistency from Powe that everyone is raving about? Nowhere to be found.


Cle Game 1: 13 minutes, 4 rebounds, 0 points - Not much to say, other than a better rebound rate than the usual in the playoffs. Did nothing offensive wise. Who knows how he sucked defensively, maybe he didn't, but chances are that he did.
Cle Game 2: 28 minutes, 7 rebounds, 11 points - Once again the real Leon shows up. Good game.
Cle Game 3: 15 minutes, 2 rebounds, 6 points - Awful game.
Cle Game 4: 6 minutes, 0 rebounds, 2 points - Another awful game.
Cle Game 5: 4 minutes, 1 rebound, 0 points - Where's Leon? Not playing because of another 'no show' for him. Davis came in and had a decent game.
Cle Game 6: DNP - 3 awful games in a row for Powe, Davis out played him in the last game, so of course he gets to play. Did a poor job though, what a surprise... Doc gives someone a chance (Powe or Davis) and they don't reward him with his confidence in them. The story of the playoffs. Doc started shortening his big man rotation at this point.
Cle Game 7: 7 minutes, 0 rebounds, 4 points - Alright game offensively, but once again Leon, where are you crashing the boards?

Series summary: Awful series for Leon. Once again didn't show up to rebound the ball, bad defensively. Once again I ask, where is his consistency? I don't see it anywhere.

Don't think I need to speak about the Detroit series, he showed nothing in the little that he played initially. Was making the same mistakes from previous series, didn't inspire confidence... seemed like he was coming with more of the same incosistency from earlier series.

Then came the Lakers series, finally the real real Leon Powe shows up. Playing decent defense, being energetic, having an impact. If he had played like this earlier, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Doc would've played him what he deseved. But he didn't. Most of the chances Doc gave him, he blew. We're in the playoffs, this is not the time to suck. Show up and play like you're capable of.

[expobear]

When was the last time Leon was crappy? Sometimes Doc won't play him, or pulls him after a couple of minutes, but Leon has been one of the most consistently productive players on the entire roster. Check out Hollinger's PER stats -- Leon is 22nd in the whole leauge, behind only Garnett on the Celts. He is just an incredibly efficient player because he doesn't try to do more than he's capable of. He hits the boards hard, finishes extremely well inside and doesn't turn the ball over.

If he misses a defensive rotation or two, he more than makes up for it with offensive boards. Could he keep up the same pace for 35 minutes a game? Probably not, but he adds so much to the team, there's never an excuse not to give him 15-20 minutes. Yes, even ahead of the legendary PJ Brown.

He would foul out.

We need Perkins/PJ Brown size and defensive presence.

Powe is still very inconsistent from game to game. Yesterday, he was great; tomorrow he can be crappy. One never knows. There's no point in keeping him in the floor if he's not scoring/drawing fouls.

He played crappy in game 1 of the Detroit series, and then played just as bad in the first two minutes he was in there in game 2 before getting pulled.

Attribute to what you want, I personally think it was matchups more than inconsistency...but either way, he didn't play well.

Those are the only games I remember specifically, although I do remember that he was very disapointing overall for much of the Atlanta series.  He played great in game 1, and then basically disapeared for a few games (despite playing minutes).

Powe played 8 minutes in game 1 against Detroit, score 4 points on 1-1 from the field and 2 for 2 from the line, grabbing 2 boards.  In game 2, Powe played 3 minutes, did not take any shots and grabbed 2 boards.  Maybe Powe missed a rotation, who knows, but how can you or Bud determine Powe played crappy from 11 minutes of playing time over two games?

Against Atlanta, Powe averaged 7.8 and 4 if you kick out game 3 where he played 6 minutes. I don't think anybody is expecting Powe to average a double double in the playoffs because that's the big three's job to do so. But to say Powe played poorly in the playoffs is not really substantiated by anything but your opinion. Powe did exactly what he was supposed to when give enough minutes.

Averages are insignificant when talking about consistency, so let's stop with those stats. Now let's take a look at the games in which he played and how he peformed. Keep in mind that I don't remember the specifics of all of them, so we can assume for the most part that his defensive rotations were poor because that's been my impression of him through most of the playoffs:

ATL Game 1: 24 minutes, 4 rebounds, 10 points - Alright with his scoring, but did a poor job rebounding the ball.
ATL Game 2: 14 mimutes, 3 rebounds, 3 points - Poor game.
ATL Game 3: 06 minutes, 0 rebounds, 0 points - Poor game, did anyone see Leon play? I couldn't find him on the court. Just awful.
ATL Game 4: 22 minutes, 2 rebounds, 3 points - Once again, a disappearing act from Leon even though Doc gave him extended minutes after 2 awful games to give him a chance. He blew his opportunity.
ATL Game 5: 23 minutes, 7 rebounds, 10 points - Can the real Leon please stand up? Finally he shows what's he's capable of in the playoffs.
ATL Game 6: 15 minutes, 4 rebounds, 9 points - Good/decent game. Was productive offensively, but would've liked him to rebound a bit better.
ATL Game 7: 20 minutes, 4 rebounds, 12 points - Another good productive game offensively, but where are those rebounds?

Series summary: Poor series in the beginning overall, heated up towards the end... but lets keep in mind that most if not all of his good games came in games that were complete blowouts and he wasn't needed. In tight games, he layed complete eggs when we needed him the most. For the most part, he was out hustled by a young Atlanta team that seemed to want the ball more in regards to rebounds. Where is this so called consistency from Powe that everyone is raving about? Nowhere to be found.


Cle Game 1: 13 minutes, 4 rebounds, 0 points - Not much to say, other than a better rebound rate than the usual in the playoffs. Did nothing offensive wise. Who knows how he sucked defensively, maybe he didn't, but chances are that he did.
Cle Game 2: 28 minutes, 7 rebounds, 11 points - Once again the real Leon shows up. Good game.
Cle Game 3: 15 minutes, 2 rebounds, 6 points - Awful game.
Cle Game 4: 6 minutes, 0 rebounds, 2 points - Another awful game.
Cle Game 5: 4 minutes, 1 rebound, 0 points - Where's Leon? Not playing because of another 'no show' for him. Davis came in and had a decent game.
Cle Game 6: DNP - 3 awful games in a row for Powe, Davis out played him in the last game, so of course he gets to play. Did a poor job though, what a surprise... Doc gives someone a chance (Powe or Davis) and they don't reward him with his confidence in them. The story of the playoffs. Doc started shortening his big man rotation at this point.
Cle Game 7: 7 minutes, 0 rebounds, 4 points - Alright game offensively, but once again Leon, where are you crashing the boards?

Series summary: Awful series for Leon. Once again didn't show up to rebound the ball, bad defensively. Once again I ask, where is his consistency? I don't see it anywhere.

Don't think I need to speak about the Detroit series, he showed nothing in the little that he played initially. Was making the same mistakes from previous series, didn't inspire confidence... seemed like he was coming with more of the same incosistency from earlier series.

Then came the Lakers series, finally the real real Leon Powe shows up. Playing decent defense, being energetic, having an impact. If he had played like this earlier, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Doc would've played him what he deseved. But he didn't. Most of the chances Doc gave him, he blew. We're in the playoffs, this is not the time to suck. Show up and play like you're capable of.

Pretty serious analysis on your part, Bud. Again, if those numbers are for the big three, then I would say you're right, quite inconsistent but Powe's a bench player who played as well as others coming off the bench. Look, I'm not saying Powe should be starting, but if you think Powe should get zero minutes because of your "objective" analysis of the numbers and determine that Powe has been inconsistent, then we may as well throw Ray Allen under the bus as well as Perkins and Garnett. All the starters (and the other subs besides Powe) have had their ups and downs throughout the playoffs, but the big difference between those players and Powe is they all get second, third and fourth chances where Powe gets zero to redeem himself. I know you say you like Powe but I really don't see that at all in your posts. The big difference between Powe and the rest of the bench is that Powe can go for 21 in 15 minutes. Do you think anybody else on the Celtics bench can? Why would you want to have this potential sitting on the bench during any series is something only Rivers and your "serious analysis" of the numbers can ridiculously justify.


Read Tom Ziller's blog:

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/06/09/dont-dismiss-powe-because-the-lakers-defense-sucks/

This guy has it right about Powe. All you Powe doubters think what Powe did was easy on Sunday night. You complain about the lack of boards or a missed rotation. You over analyze everything but miss the big picture - Powe is a winner and will do whatever it takes for his team to win. This is the intangible about Powe that you Powe doubters and Rivers have yet to understand. It's really not about the numbers even though Powe's are right up there. It's about heart and you can't measure that, except when you see a guy come off the bench after basically sitting for 11 games and doing what Powe did.

[Chris]

Powe played 8 minutes in game 1 against Detroit, score 4 points on 1-1 from the field and 2 for 2 from the line, grabbing 2 boards.  In game 2, Powe played 3 minutes, did not take any shots and grabbed 2 boards.  Maybe Powe missed a rotation, who knows, but how can you or Bud determine Powe played crappy from 11 minutes of playing time over two games?

Against Atlanta, Powe averaged 7.8 and 4 if you kick out game 3 where he played 6 minutes. I don't think anybody is expecting Powe to average a double double in the playoffs because that's the big three's job to do so. But to say Powe played poorly in the playoffs is not really substantiated by anything but your opinion. Powe did exactly what he was supposed to when give enough minutes.

My opinion...and Doc Rivers.

We have had this argument before, no need to rehash it.  The numbers don't tell the story.  We will just have to agree to disagree.

[cordobes]

1 - I'm not a Powe doubter, by any means. I really like Powe and I think he's been very useful to this team.

2 - The problem with Powe's defense is not only missing "a rotation or two". He has an opp PER of 19.6, the 3rd worst in the team, and has a +/- net of -5.3. We can't afford to keep him for extentended minutes on the floor, in a playoffs game, unless he's scoring/drawing fouls at an insane pace - and that and rebounding is every thing he can do, even in his best nights. And we really need Perks/PJ size in the defensive end.

3 - His productivity is highly dependent on matchups.

4 - Great work Budweiser, with the analysis of Powe's performance in the playoffs (TP). But I believe one just has to see the games.

[Chris]

1 - I'm not a Powe doubter, by any means. I really like Powe and I think he's been very useful to this team.

2 - The problem with Powe's defense is not only missing "a rotation or two". He has an opp PER of 19.6, the 3rd worst in the team, and has a +/- net of -5.3. We can't afford to keep him for extentended minutes on the floor, in a playoffs game, unless he's scoring/drawing fouls at an insane pace - and that and rebounding is every thing he can do, even in his best nights. And we really need Perks/PJ size in the defensive end.

3 - His productivity is highly dependent on matchups.

4 - Great work Budweiser, with the analysis of Powe's performance in the playoffs (TP). But I believe one just has to see the games.

This is pretty much how I feel as well. 

I would add that I do think Powe is going to be a heck of a player, he just needs to get more comfortable with the rotations, and needs to get a mid range jumper, and he will be at least a top level role player, if not more. 

[Roy Hobbs]

2 - The problem with Powe's defense is not only missing "a rotation or two". He has an opp PER of 19.6, the 3rd worst in the team, and has a +/- net of -5.3. We can't afford to keep him for extentended minutes on the floor, in a playoffs game, unless he's scoring/drawing fouls at an insane pace - and that and rebounding is every thing he can do, even in his best nights. And we really need Perks/PJ size in the defensive end.

In the regular season, against opposing power forwards Leon had an Opponent's PER of 13.5.  He outscored, outrebounded, and outshot opposing power forwards when he was in there.

In the playoffs, as a power forward Leon has an Opponent's PER of 16.0.  He has once again outscored and outshot his opponents, while rebounds are virtually identical. 

Also, you neglected that in the regular season, Leon's PER differential was fourth highest on the team.

Also, that -5.3 number isn't "net +/-".  Leon had a positive +/- on the year, both as a center and power forward.  Rather, what you're looking at is net production on vs. off the court.  The team's production only dipped by an average of -5.3 points when Leon was in there, the best net production of any bench big man.  Every bench player was in the negative, as obviously production decreases once the starters come out.

I agree that Powe shouldn't be defending opposing centers.  However, in terms of defense again power forwards -- his natural cover -- he has been very solid.