Author Topic: Powe needs to play big minutes.  (Read 12787 times)

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Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2008, 11:35:49 PM »

Offline Chris

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Powe played great last night. The only reason that he plays very little minutes is because he is inconsistent.  If he can stay consistent, he would be great.


Al,

Another Powe fallacy.  How is it determined that Powe is inconsistent when the only consistent thing about Powe is that he's averaged 3.5 minutes a game for the ten playoff games preceding last night. Rivers must be a hell of a coach and all the Powe doubters must be astute basketballers to be able to say Powe is inconsistent with the limited minutes he's been given recently. Yes, I know, he misses rotations and he can't get his shot off against taller opponents blah, blah blah.  How will we ever know what he can or cannot do when his butt has remained firmly planted on the bench in recent games to determine whether Powe is consistent or inconsistent?

I agree that Powe is not really inconsistent.  I have personally been guilty of throwing that word around, and it just isn't accurate.

Powe is still a young player, and does not have a complete game yet.  Because of this, he excels against certain matchups more than others (you could say that about just about any younger player). 

IMO, there was good reason for Powe to not be playing against Detroit (we don't need to get into it right now, because we beat it to death during the Detroit series, and I know we disagree on this).  But you are right that it isn't inconsistency, which generally infers that he does not play the same way every game.  Powe does play the same way almost all the time.  The difference is some teams are better at minimizing the way he plays than others.

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2008, 12:06:38 AM »

Offline bunnath

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Powe played great last night. The only reason that he plays very little minutes is because he is inconsistent.  If he can stay consistent, he would be great.

check this out:

stats of scoring leaders for sophomores per 48 minutes of play
http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Scoring.jsp?league=00&season=22007&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=PER48&qualified=N&yearsExp=1&splitDD=


Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2008, 12:10:35 AM »

Offline carlherrera

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I agree that Powe's inconsistency in the playoffs may have come from the minuscule sample minutes he's been getting from Doc.
A very well respected basketball statistics site (which has been referrenced in this blog before) - Wages of Wins - has mentioned in various articles that the main reason why the Celtics struggled against Cleveland and Atlanta was the diminished production from Leon Powe. This site looks at WinScore and other "fancy" stats and they've found that Powe was the most productive player for the Celtics after KG, PP and Rondo. That's how good this guy is...
Also, I hope Danny reads a great article from that site re: how to predict a player's NBA career based on their college stats... http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-2008-nba-draft-preview/

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2008, 01:10:22 AM »

Offline cordobes

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I absolutely agree with the "let's not get carried away" crowd.

For one, the Lakers paid virtually no attention to him last game.  His full court dunk was because the Lakers were afraid to to leave Garnett to go to him.  I don't think the Lakers will forget about Leon this time. 

Secondly, if you look at him standing next to Pierce, Leon's only like 6-6, 6-7 at best.  While he plays bigger, he's not the defensive presence that Perkins and Brown are at nearly 7-foot.  Remember, defense is what got us here and why we're up 2-0. 

Finally, as an addendum, even if if Leon continues to impress, let's not get carried away.  Time and again role players have stepped up in the playoffs for title winners, landed big contracts, then when the team asks them to be a star, failed to produce once people start paying attention to them at the defensive end.  Look at guys like Austin Croshere, Shandon Anderson, and Jason Caffey.  So while I wish the best for Leon and hope to continue to see him in Green, let's not annoint him KG's successor at the 4 yet. 

Good post. But the "let's not get carried away" is an uphill battle. Fans tend to overrate scoring (GMs too) - even blackholes like Powe. Fans tend to overrate the young guys in the roster, especially those who were drafted by their team - this is probably the 20th "Powe must play more minutes" thread, there are at least 15 "BBD must play more minutes" thread and I believe a "Pruitt must play more minutes" one can be find somewhere. but I think we can be safe: fortunately, our coach is not Isiah Thomas, so Powe will see minutes as long as he is scoring/drawing fouls and not giving many baskets in the other side nor fouling too much. If he goes cold, if he's facing a hard mismatch, he's useless. 

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2008, 01:16:28 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Powe played great last night. The only reason that he plays very little minutes is because he is inconsistent.  If he can stay consistent, he would be great.


Al,

Another Powe fallacy.  How is it determined that Powe is inconsistent when the only consistent thing about Powe is that he's averaged 3.5 minutes a game for the ten playoff games preceding last night. Rivers must be a hell of a coach and all the Powe doubters must be astute basketballers to be able to say Powe is inconsistent with the limited minutes he's been given recently. Yes, I know, he misses rotations and he can't get his shot off against taller opponents blah, blah blah.  How will we ever know what he can or cannot do when his butt has remained firmly planted on the bench in recent games to determine whether Powe is consistent or inconsistent?

I agree that Powe is not really inconsistent.  I have personally been guilty of throwing that word around, and it just isn't accurate.

Powe is still a young player, and does not have a complete game yet.  Because of this, he excels against certain matchups more than others (you could say that about just about any younger player). 

IMO, there was good reason for Powe to not be playing against Detroit (we don't need to get into it right now, because we beat it to death during the Detroit series, and I know we disagree on this).  But you are right that it isn't inconsistency, which generally infers that he does not play the same way every game.  Powe does play the same way almost all the time.  The difference is some teams are better at minimizing the way he plays than others.

Na', he has been inconsistent. During all the playoffs, he has rarely had two games in a row in which he at the least played decently, then you add the abundance of missed rotations, and you simply couldn't rationalize putting him on the floor. He simply stopped doing the things he does well, like rebounding. He came in with a lack of energy and focus needed for this stage. In a sense, I think he wasn't ready to play playoff basketball, particularly when through most games he's matched-up with more skilled players for the most part than in the regular season. Many of his deficiencies, like being smaller than others, were exploited big time, and his lack of hustle at times showed... at least to me.  How can you tell? When he wasn't getting to the lose balls and his rebounding rate was simply poor.

This is not a points per game thing, or rebounds per game thing... it's about doing your job in the minutes they give you. That's playoff basketball, and the role of the bench in it. If you don't show up early, how can he keep going to you when you rarely take advantage of the opportunities and confidence given to you?

Just compare the first game he had against the Lakers with most of the games during the playoffs, compare the impact he has had in his minutes, compare the rebound production. That's the Powe we have needed, regardless of the minutes he gets. And I stand by what I've said before, if Powe shows up to play, Doc will play him. If he doesn't, he goes straight to the bench and I'm 100% fine with it. We're in the playoffs, we're in the finals, and this is a second year player in a position were we have had a couple of options to go to instead of him, we can't be patient with him in these critical moments. I'll say this, the Powe that has showed up against the Lakers is a completely different Powe than the one we've seen during the playoffs, and I doubt that he'll eat the bench again. His energy is up, his rebounds are up, his defense has been decent... this formula should keep him on the floor, and Doc will reward him for it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 01:34:03 AM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2008, 02:08:51 AM »

Offline expobear

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Powe played great last night. The only reason that he plays very little minutes is because he is inconsistent.  If he can stay consistent, he would be great.


Al,

Another Powe fallacy.  How is it determined that Powe is inconsistent when the only consistent thing about Powe is that he's averaged 3.5 minutes a game for the ten playoff games preceding last night. Rivers must be a hell of a coach and all the Powe doubters must be astute basketballers to be able to say Powe is inconsistent with the limited minutes he's been given recently. Yes, I know, he misses rotations and he can't get his shot off against taller opponents blah, blah blah.  How will we ever know what he can or cannot do when his butt has remained firmly planted on the bench in recent games to determine whether Powe is consistent or inconsistent?

I agree that Powe is not really inconsistent.  I have personally been guilty of throwing that word around, and it just isn't accurate.

Powe is still a young player, and does not have a complete game yet.  Because of this, he excels against certain matchups more than others (you could say that about just about any younger player). 

IMO, there was good reason for Powe to not be playing against Detroit (we don't need to get into it right now, because we beat it to death during the Detroit series, and I know we disagree on this).  But you are right that it isn't inconsistency, which generally infers that he does not play the same way every game.  Powe does play the same way almost all the time.  The difference is some teams are better at minimizing the way he plays than others.

Na', he has been inconsistent. During all the playoffs, he has rarely had two games in a row in which he at the least played decently, then you add the abundance of missed rotations, and you simply couldn't rationalize putting him on the floor. He simply stopped doing the things he does well, like rebounding. He came in with a lack of energy and focus needed for this stage. In a sense, I think he wasn't ready to play playoff basketball, particularly when through most games he's matched-up with more skilled players for the most part than in the regular season. Many of his deficiencies, like being smaller than others, were exploited big time, and his lack of hustle at times showed... at least to me.  How can you tell? When he wasn't getting to the lose balls and his rebounding rate was simply poor.

This is not a points per game thing, or rebounds per game thing... it's about doing your job in the minutes they give you. That's playoff basketball, and the role of the bench in it. If you don't show up early, how can he keep going to you when you rarely take advantage of the opportunities and confidence given to you?

Just compare the first game he had against the Lakers with most of the games during the playoffs, compare the impact he has had in his minutes, compare the rebound production. That's the Powe we have needed, regardless of the minutes he gets. And I stand by what I've said before, if Powe shows up to play, Doc will play him. If he doesn't, he goes straight to the bench and I'm 100% fine with it. We're in the playoffs, we're in the finals, and this is a second year player in a position were we have had a couple of options to go to instead of him, we can't be patient with him in these critical moments. I'll say this, the Powe that has showed up against the Lakers is a completely different Powe than the one we've seen during the playoffs, and I doubt that he'll eat the bench again. His energy is up, his rebounds are up, his defense has been decent... this formula should keep him on the floor, and Doc will reward him for it.






Nahhh!!!

Rivers has his head up his ass when it comes to Powe. Powe can flat out play.  Rivers will probably get a championship for the Celtics but definitely the hard way.  I think you'll get your wish after next year, Bud, when Powe signs with another team.

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2008, 02:13:06 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Sorry expobear, but I love Powe... I just want a championship more. But you've shown to be very biased towards Powe in the past, so I won't waste my time arguing with you.

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2008, 03:27:13 AM »

Offline Emmette Bryant

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Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2008, 09:59:27 AM »

Offline cordobes

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Hi all,

I didn't want to start a new thread so here's a fun Leon Powe article.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Too-much-Rod-Benson-Leon-Powe-gets-buckets;_ylt=AhOcwnBN9.z_iPa1ej_O3Ke8vLYF?urn=nba,86906

You beat me to it. Very good reading, indeed. Btw, I'm all in favor of bringing in Rod Benson next season, only for entertaining purposes. Sc... BS, Too Much is the man.

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2008, 10:41:05 AM »

Offline expobear

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Sorry expobear, but I love Powe... I just want a championship more. But you've shown to be very biased towards Powe in the past, so I won't waste my time arguing with you.



Bud,

I may be biased but you would be wasting your time arguing because you really don't have much to argue with, as far as I'm concerned.  Powe should have been playing, at a minimum, 10-15 minutes a game throughout the playoffs. After game 2 vs the Lakers, it's hard to believe Powe hasn't been.

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2008, 11:41:32 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Sorry expobear, but I love Powe... I just want a championship more. But you've shown to be very biased towards Powe in the past, so I won't waste my time arguing with you.



Bud,

I may be biased but you would be wasting your time arguing because you really don't have much to argue with, as far as I'm concerned.  Powe should have been playing, at a minimum, 10-15 minutes a game throughout the playoffs. After game 2 vs the Lakers, it's hard to believe Powe hasn't been.

It would've been difficult to win then because the Powe that has showed up in the Lakers series is not the same Powe that was showing up all through the playoffs. But all is fine as long as your guy gets the minutes right? Whatever, I've made my points plenty of times before... all you've done is talk about how Powe deserves a big contract before something happens to him, and things of that nature.

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2008, 11:54:33 AM »

Offline YouGotRondo d

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We all love Leon, but we've gotta understand that he has always been a streaky player who performs average defensively, at best. With that said, there's no excuse for the lack of minutes he has been playing on a consistent basis.

I think that much like the Sam Cassell situation, Doc needs to get Leon some early burn to find out whether or not he brought his game.

At best, I see Leon as a player who can give us a periodic scoring and offensive rebounding boost off the bench, but he is consistently a defensive liability. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think he should only play significant minutes when his offensive game is on. If not, PJ can handle most of the responsibility.

However, there should be some kind of consistent rotation with him to see what he's got, not something like 20 minutes every 5th playoff game..

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2008, 12:08:34 PM »

Offline Chris

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Sorry expobear, but I love Powe... I just want a championship more. But you've shown to be very biased towards Powe in the past, so I won't waste my time arguing with you.



Bud,

I may be biased but you would be wasting your time arguing because you really don't have much to argue with, as far as I'm concerned.  Powe should have been playing, at a minimum, 10-15 minutes a game throughout the playoffs. After game 2 vs the Lakers, it's hard to believe Powe hasn't been.

You don't have much to argue with other than your opinion either.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and can argue for it by backing it up with stats, observations, scouting reports, etc.  Just because you claim it like its fact, doesn't make your opinion any more valid than someone elses.

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2008, 12:23:27 PM »

Offline acieEarl

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The big man rotation, outside of the last six minutes, was extremely good last night.  Most nights you don't want to limit Perk to 14 minutes, but last night it worked.

Generally, I think I'd like to see a rotation of something like 40 minutes for KG, 30 minutes for Perk, 14 minutes for P.J., 12 minutes for Powe.  This can be adjusted based upon the context of the game situation.

I gotta think Powe would be the first one off the bench replacing either KG or Perk. They gotta at least find 15 minutes or more for this guy.

Re: Powe needs to play big minutes.
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2008, 01:11:23 PM »

Offline expobear

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Sorry expobear, but I love Powe... I just want a championship more. But you've shown to be very biased towards Powe in the past, so I won't waste my time arguing with you.



Bud,

I may be biased but you would be wasting your time arguing because you really don't have much to argue with, as far as I'm concerned.  Powe should have been playing, at a minimum, 10-15 minutes a game throughout the playoffs. After game 2 vs the Lakers, it's hard to believe Powe hasn't been.

You don't have much to argue with other than your opinion either.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and can argue for it by backing it up with stats, observations, scouting reports, etc.  Just because you claim it like its fact, doesn't make your opinion any more valid than someone elses.


Chris,

I guess I don't have much to back up my claims other than the fact Powe plays 45 minutes in the last 11 playoff games prior to Game 2 of the championship series, and then, comes off the bench for 21 pts in 15 minutes in game 2. Now, I'll readily admit that Powe can't do this every game but Bud is stating that Powe has been inconsistent during the post season. I beg to differ and I think his stats prove otherwise. When Powe has played extended minutes, he has performed adequately. In the games where Powe has played 10 or more minutes, he's averaged 8.6 and 3.9 respectively. When he has been given 3 or 4 minutes, how can anybody say he's been inconsistent or has played poorly?  Not even Garnett, Pierce or Kobe can do much if given 3 or 4 minutes a game. Look, I'm not saying Powe should start or even play 25 minutes a game, but I think you're all deluding yourself if you think the Celtics are stronger with Powe playing 3 or 4 minutes than playing 10-15 minutes a game regardless of the matchups or if he misses a rotation. You don't desert players that have the potential to do what Powe did on Sunday because they make a mistake - if you're a good coach, you utilize the player's strengths and try to hide his weaknesses. If the Celtics win the championship, utilization of Powe's strengths would have made this road much easier than what the Celtics have experienced so far.