"The Lakers are the better team . . ."

[BballTim]

Everybody is talking about #1 offense vs. #1 defense, and almost everybody picks offense (Lakers). But what everybody forgets about, is that the difference between the Lakers' defense and C's offense is much bigger, which should favor the C's.

Actually, your statement is only true for the regular season, but not the playoff:

In the regular season, Celtics score 100.5 and opponent score 90.3. 100.5-90.3 = 10.2 points different.
In the playoff, Celtics score 91.6 and opponent score 87.3. 91.6-87.3 = 4.3 points different.

On the other hand, Lakers:

In the regular season, Lakers score 108.6 and opponent score 101.3. 108.6-101.3 = 7.3 points different.
In the playoff, Lakers score 105.9 and opponent score 99.5. 105.9-99.5 = 6.4 points different.

So stat wise, Celtics is a better team in the regular season and the Lakers is a better team in the playoff.

  If you check out the offensive and defensive efficiencies on Hollinger's team stats, the Lakers offense is 109, their defense is 103.1 for a difference of 5.9. The Celts offense is 105.2 and their defense is 99.4 for a difference of 5.8. You also have to consider that the Lakers scored 115 a game vs Denver, 110 a game vs Utah and about 94 a game vs San Antonio (barely more than NO scored gainst the Spurs).

Agree with your are saying. However, you should read the first quote from P2, which he say "the difference between the Lakers' defense and C's offense is much bigger".

It is clearly not the case, in absolutely term or in efficiencies.

  I wasn't commenting on it (in fact, I'm not sure I completely understand it). I was commenting in response to your statement "So stat wise, Celtics is a better team in the regular season and the Lakers is a better team in the playoff". Whether the Lakers are better in the playoffs depends on which stat you use.

[seccom]

Everybody is talking about #1 offense vs. #1 defense, and almost everybody picks offense (Lakers). But what everybody forgets about, is that the difference between the Lakers' defense and C's offense is much bigger, which should favor the C's.

Actually, your statement is only true for the regular season, but not the playoff:

In the regular season, Celtics score 100.5 and opponent score 90.3. 100.5-90.3 = 10.2 points different.
In the playoff, Celtics score 91.6 and opponent score 87.3. 91.6-87.3 = 4.3 points different.

On the other hand, Lakers:

In the regular season, Lakers score 108.6 and opponent score 101.3. 108.6-101.3 = 7.3 points different.
In the playoff, Lakers score 105.9 and opponent score 99.5. 105.9-99.5 = 6.4 points different.

So stat wise, Celtics is a better team in the regular season and the Lakers is a better team in the playoff.

  If you check out the offensive and defensive efficiencies on Hollinger's team stats, the Lakers offense is 109, their defense is 103.1 for a difference of 5.9. The Celts offense is 105.2 and their defense is 99.4 for a difference of 5.8. You also have to consider that the Lakers scored 115 a game vs Denver, 110 a game vs Utah and about 94 a game vs San Antonio (barely more than NO scored gainst the Spurs).

Agree with your are saying. However, you should read the first quote from P2, which he say "the difference between the Lakers' defense and C's offense is much bigger".

It is clearly not the case, in absolutely term or in efficiencies.

  I wasn't commenting on it (in fact, I'm not sure I completely understand it). I was commenting in response to your statement "So stat wise, Celtics is a better team in the regular season and the Lakers is a better team in the playoff". Whether the Lakers are better in the playoffs depends on which stat you use.

Both playoff stat supported Lakers to be a better team. In the case of efficiencis, it is 5.9 - 5.8 = .1 point, very small advantage to the Lakers.

I am still trying to find the article that Hollinger wrote regarding Spurs vs Lakers on point differents. I will post it if I can located it.

[crownsy]

thats not two stats, its both sides of one stat.

why don't you look up oppFG%, oppFGe%, points per 100, Drebounds differancial, points in the pain diff.

and then get back to me.

[seccom]

I found that article, but it really does not explain it that well. Oh well.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=hollinger_john&entryID=3405622

Anyway, read the part on So why do I hate the Spurs?

BTW, he was right on the money on the Lakers and off by one game for the Celtics.

[seccom]

thats not two stats, its both sides of one stat.

why don't you look up oppFG%, oppFGe%, points per 100, Drebounds differancial, points in the pain diff.

and then get back to me.

Actually I did:

Celtics is better is FG% allowed, slight better in 3FG% allowed, in offensive rebound, (Celtics' biggest advantage), in assist and turnover.

Lakers is better in FT attempt allowed (biggest Lakers advantage), fouls, and block shot.

However, the questions:

"the difference between the Lakers' defense and C's offense is much bigger".

So you have to use both offense and defense stat.

[plasmaPG]

Everybody is talking about #1 offense vs. #1 defense, and almost everybody picks offense (Lakers). But what everybody forgets about, is that the difference between the Lakers' defense and C's offense is much bigger, which should favor the C's.

Not only that but to piggy back off of what you said.  People forget that the Spurs beat the Suns when every time people favor the Suns offense over the Spurs Defense.  I like the Celtics in this series because when they play with something to prove they come out big.  Look at the Texas Two step or any trip out west.  The Celtics played big.  I think all the pressure is off them and let's give a big thanks to the national media for taking the pressure off a team that won 66 games during the season.

You cannot possibly compare this match up to the spur/suns of last year!  The main reason the Spurs won was Horry decided to bump Nash into the second row causing the suspension of Amare and Diaw.  Imagine losing your starting center and a key 6th of the bench.  Everyone knows the suns would have taken the series had they not suspended Amare..

[plasmaPG]

Everyone outside of the fans and local media here in Boston, is picking the Lakers in 5 or 6 games.  Everyone is pointing to the Lakers great offense and the greatness of Mr. Kobe "black Mamba" Bryant as the reason why they are picking the Lakers.  They also say the Lakers have the better coach and better bench.  They are talking about the Celtics going to the full 7 games vs. the Hawks and Cavs. Their reasoning is if the Celtics can't put a team away like the Hawks in 5 games with no superstar how can they beat the Lakers who has the game best player? These are the same group of people who said the Piston will beat the Celtics.

Now I'm here to give you 5 reasons why they are wrong.

1) Everyone always say Defense win championship. Out of the two teams who plays the better defense? No question it the Celtics. They've been one of the top 3 team in defense all season long. It's the reason why they will win this series.

2) Aren’t these the same guys who pick the Suns to beat the Spurs over the last 3 or 4 season?  Was it not Suns with the great offense losing to the Spurs who had the great defense?  Was it not the Suns who had the league MVP going up against the Spurs big 3?  Now did that turn out?

3) Kobe Bryant is Jordan? Heck NO!  Kobe is a great player and one heck of a talent.  But anyone of the Jordan Bulls was better then this year Lakers.  People forget that those Bulls team won with Defense.  They had 3 (Jordan, Pippen and Rodman) of the top 15 all-time great defensive player to ever play the game on those teams. Last I look the Lakers aren't even a very good defensive team.

4) I'm not going to sit here and say Doc Rivers is better then Phil Jackson.  I'm not going to say that.  But what I will say is this. Out of the 9 times that a Phil Jackson has coach a team to a championship, he's team had the better players.  The team with the better players wins not the team with the better coach.  I say great players make coaches look great.  In this series the play of KG, Pierce and Ray Allen will make Doc Rivers look great.

5) Lakers bench vs. the Celtics bench.  I'll take Sam Cassell (2 rings), James Posey (1 ring), PJ Brown’s (500 hundred give or take a hundred play-off games played) vs. son of Bill, and some guys name Sasha, Ronny and Farmar. 

I will try to debate your points on why the Lakers are different than the other "offensive" teams in the past.

1. It's true that defense wins championships but the Lakers are not the Suns or 04-06 which played absolutely no defense and was ranked near last in defense all those years.  These Lakers are ranked 5th in the playoffs out of 16 teams, that's pretty darn good. 

2.  I believe that last year, if not for the suspension of Amare and Diaw, the Suns would have taken the spurs and beat Cavs.  Imagine losing your starting All-Star Center and 6th man for two games?  How well do you think you can do if you lost Garnett and say Posey?

3.  Point taken, Kobe is no Jordan and the team is not the same bulls team.  But Kobe is the best right now and that has to account for something

4. Your argument doesn't stand.  Of course, PJ will have an advantage.  How many times has Doc been to the finals let alone win 9?  we can debate all day whos team has the better players, but we are talking about coaching and you would have to agree PJ has an advantage ( how big we don't know yet)

5.  Individually, the Lakers bench might not be as good as your bench guys, but when they play together is where they shine.  Often during the season, you see them as a unit with one starter, odom.  The lakers do not just put one guy to replace one starter, they put in entire units and let them play together.  I believe as a whole our bench is better.  And what is 50 year Sam Cassell going to do?  He had one good game out of 21?

[wdleehi]

Everybody is talking about #1 offense vs. #1 defense, and almost everybody picks offense (Lakers). But what everybody forgets about, is that the difference between the Lakers' defense and C's offense is much bigger, which should favor the C's.

Not only that but to piggy back off of what you said.  People forget that the Spurs beat the Suns when every time people favor the Suns offense over the Spurs Defense.  I like the Celtics in this series because when they play with something to prove they come out big.  Look at the Texas Two step or any trip out west.  The Celtics played big.  I think all the pressure is off them and let's give a big thanks to the national media for taking the pressure off a team that won 66 games during the season.

You cannot possibly compare this match up to the spur/suns of last year!  The main reason the Spurs won was Horry decided to bump Nash into the second row causing the suspension of Amare and Diaw.  Imagine losing your starting center and a key 6th of the bench.  Everyone knows the suns would have taken the series had they not suspended Amare..

Spurs won because they were the best team last year. 

They didn't push the two foolish Sun's players to where they got suspended. 

[D Dub]

  And what is 50 year Sam Cassell going to do?  He had one good game out of 21?

Can't argue with you there, Sam is old and tired.  Good thing we have a third option that is still way better than JV Farmar.

Eddie House is gonna drop some daggers in the coming weeks, take it the bank.

[Onslaught]

If the Celtics had beat Atlanta in 4 or 5 games and then Cleveland in 5 or 6 games none of this nonsensical "Celtics can win" talk would be happening. But because the Celtics took a couple of series to get used to playing playoff basketball together(which is completely different than playing regular season ball together), the entire sports reporting world has jumped all over the Kobe Express.

I'm not trying to be the naysayer here because, ultimately, I think the Laker media bias is crap (though it will make winning that much sweeter - thank you media!!). However, the Lakers have had to get used to playing playoff basketball together as well. I mean, I guess the Celtics have had to go through it in a more drastic way, but it's not as though this Lakers team has been playing together and winning championships together for years. They just added Gasol, Fisher is new this year (although he already knew the triangle well), and they've got a bunch of younger/newer guys that don't exactly have a dearth of playoff experience - especially together.

But there's no question that the C's early struggles in the playoffs provided much needed playoff experience. And it seemed pretty clear to me that by the time Boston faced Detroit, our boys figured it all out and got their mojo back. So, I definitely agree that the media are missing that point.

I agree with you for the most part. But one thing I think that could have hurt the Celtics was that because they play in the east and had first place locked up a long time before the playoffs started. And because of theta they let the starters rest for weeks. I personally think this could have actually hurt them a little at the start of the playoffs and they had to get back into the flow of playing together and learn about the playoffs at the same time. After the Detroit series I believe they are playing back to the level they had before. LA on the other hand had to play every person in an almost playoff atmosphere every night to the end of the season just to secure the number one seed. They never got rusty and they already knew what it was going to be like after facing some of the teams they did right up to the end.

That said I still believe that Boston should have never gone to 7 games against the Hawks. But that's history and really has nothing to do with the team now.

[purplegold]

Evidence the Lakers are the better team:

Championship rings of current players and coaches?
Record of the two teams after the Pau-alicious Gasol trade in Jan.?
Playoff records of the two team.....i mean, 7 games for Atlanta....R U SERIOUS!!!!!

...in my opinion, "The Finals" were already played in the WEST! How many Eastern Conf. Teams have won the NBA Championship since Jordan did it way back when?

Lakers in 5, done! 

[Donoghus]

Evidence the Lakers are the better team:

Championship rings of current players and coaches?
Record of the two teams after the Pau-alicious Gasol trade in Jan.?
Playoff records of the two team.....i mean, 7 games for Atlanta....R U SERIOUS!!!!!

...in my opinion, "The Finals" were already played in the WEST! How many Eastern Conf. Teams have won the NBA Championship since Jordan did it way back when?

Lakers in 5, done! 

Wow.  That is some hard hitting analysis there.  Certainly has a bearing on this series.

[Analyst]

Evidence the Lakers are the better team:

Championship rings of current players and coaches?
Record of the two teams after the Pau-alicious Gasol trade in Jan.?
Playoff records of the two team.....i mean, 7 games for Atlanta....R U SERIOUS!!!!!

...in my opinion, "The Finals" were already played in the WEST! How many Eastern Conf. Teams have won the NBA Championship since Jordan did it way back when?

Lakers in 5, done! 

Try the Pistons and Heat. The East has two of the last 3 NBA champions. Each time we beat better offensive teams with D-fense. Just for the record the Fakers are 11-10 against the leagues top 7 defensive teams while the C's went 10-5 against the 7 top offensive teams.


Modified your quotations
-Dons

[Mr October]

A thought on the Atlanta series that is always overlooked. Prior to that series, the Celtics had been in pre-season mode for en entire MONTH. The starters often played small minutes, or even skipped games, while the role players blew out the other team. Most of those other teams were in tank mode, throwing in the towel. It was a fools gold situation with no correct answer. Then when the Atlanta series started, the Celtics weren't honestly ready.

And now the C's are firing on all cylinders. Blasting Detroit. Watch out LA, the Green Machine will be waiting.

[Analyst]

A thought on the Atlanta series that is always overlooked. Prior to that series, the Celtics had been in pre-season mode for en entire MONTH. The starters often played small minutes, or even skipped games, while the role players blew out the other team. Most of those other teams were in tank mode, throwing in the towel. It was a fools gold situation with no correct answer. Then when the Atlanta series started, the Celtics weren't honestly ready.

And now the C's are firing on all cylinders. Blasting Detroit. Watch out LA, the Green Machine will be waiting.

I couldn't agree with you more! TP giveth my friend!