Vecsey on Finals: "Should be a lay-up drill for the Celtics"

[Redz]

You guys are in for a rude awakening if you believe that the Lakers are just an "average" defensive team.

There's a difference between playing at a comatose pace (Cleveland) and being bad on defense.

I very much hope that the C's think they're facing a team that will allow "layup" drills.

Do you think for a second the Celtics are taking any heed to what Vecsey has to say?

When they look for real good tips on what to do they come straight to CelticsBlog

[pslakerfan]

My concern with this series is how much super start treatment kobe gets.
We barely survived the Cavs with Bron Bron getting all the calls,

I am pretty sure that was designed to get the Lakers to the finals against Bron Bron, not necessarily to win. 
But let's save the excuses for after the bad officiating.

that's a bunch of crap.  Kobe went to the line 6 times in 5 games vs the SPurs

Yeah I know it's called sarcasm.  See the name (pslakerfan)

[GoldenThroat]

You guys are in for a rude awakening if you believe that the Lakers are just an "average" defensive team.

There's a difference between playing at a comatose pace (Cleveland) and being bad on defense.

I very much hope that the C's think they're facing a team that will allow "layup" drills.

Do you think for a second the Celtics are taking any heed to what Vecsey has to say?

When they look for real good tips on what to do they come straight to CelticsBlog

Haha, touche.

As much as I hate to compliment you linguistically challenged Bawwwwwwwston fans, this is easily the most intelligent board I've been to amongst Laker rivals.

And screw you for that.  

[pslakerfan]

A little strong, but there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that there isn't a massive defensive disparity in this series.

And it doesn't favor LA.

A little strong, but there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that there isn't a massive OFFENSIVE disparity in this series.

And it doesn't favor BOSTON.

Can't win if you don't score, and you're playing the best defensive team in the league. We're going to turn Kobe into a jump shooter. And if he dares drive, he's going down. Hard. Beyond that, we're going to beat your soft front line into a pulp on the box, and we're going to outphysical you off the bench, too.

Dream on. Last I heard they're not dusting off any space in Springfield for the Poodle, Lamar the Inconsistent, et al.

If you don't mind, I think we'll show up and play, despite all the nonsensical hyperbole you folks bring.

Nonsensical hyperbole?  You tout your great defense and I tout our great offense, but I am nonsensical.  OK, homer a bit?  And you are right you can't win if you can't score.  And guess what?  You guys ain't that good at scoring.  Of course we will score less than we normally do, duh.  That doesn't mean you will outscore us, does it?  Or am I being nonsensical?

[Raygus]

A little strong, but there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that there isn't a massive defensive disparity in this series.

And it doesn't favor LA.

A little strong, but there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that there isn't a massive OFFENSIVE disparity in this series.

And it doesn't favor BOSTON.

Can't win if you don't score, and you're playing the best defensive team in the league. We're going to turn Kobe into a jump shooter. And if he dares drive, he's going down. Hard. Beyond that, we're going to beat your soft front line into a pulp on the box, and we're going to outphysical you off the bench, too.

Dream on. Last I heard they're not dusting off any space in Springfield for the Poodle, Lamar the Inconsistent, et al.

If you don't mind, I think we'll show up and play, despite all the nonsensical hyperbole you folks bring.

Nonsensical hyperbole?  You tout your great defense and I tout our great offense, but I am nonsensical.  OK, homer a bit?  And you are right you can't win if you can't score.  And guess what?  You guys ain't that good at scoring.  Of course we will score less than we normally do, duh.  That doesn't mean you will outscore us, does it?  Or am I being nonsensical?

yes, you are being nonsensical in that what you've got to say doesn't really match the facts.

Boston averaged 100.5 points/game. Not good at scoring? Only a little worse considering the Lakers scored 108.6 points/game. Also telling, 82games.com has a stat of Points Per 100 Possessions (pPts) and the team averages level out even better - 110 for the Celts, 113 for the Lakers.

If we go by the numbers, the Lakers will be very much in trouble if they score less - it may very well mean that the Celtics will outscore them.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708BOS3.HTM (for Boston Team Stats)

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708LAL3.HTM (for LA Team Stats)

[pslakerfan]

A little strong, but there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that there isn't a massive defensive disparity in this series.

And it doesn't favor LA.

A little strong, but there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that there isn't a massive OFFENSIVE disparity in this series.

And it doesn't favor BOSTON.

Can't win if you don't score, and you're playing the best defensive team in the league. We're going to turn Kobe into a jump shooter. And if he dares drive, he's going down. Hard. Beyond that, we're going to beat your soft front line into a pulp on the box, and we're going to outphysical you off the bench, too.

Dream on. Last I heard they're not dusting off any space in Springfield for the Poodle, Lamar the Inconsistent, et al.

If you don't mind, I think we'll show up and play, despite all the nonsensical hyperbole you folks bring.

Nonsensical hyperbole?  You tout your great defense and I tout our great offense, but I am nonsensical.  OK, homer a bit?  And you are right you can't win if you can't score.  And guess what?  You guys ain't that good at scoring.  Of course we will score less than we normally do, duh.  That doesn't mean you will outscore us, does it?  Or am I being nonsensical?

yes, you are being nonsensical in that what you've got to say doesn't really match the facts.

Boston averaged 100.5 points/game. Not good at scoring? Only a little worse considering the Lakers scored 108.6 points/game. Also telling, 82games.com has a stat of Points Per 100 Possessions (pPts) and the team averages level out even better - 110 for the Celts, 113 for the Lakers.

If we go by the numbers, the Lakers will be very much in trouble if they score less - it may very well mean that the Celtics will outscore them.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708BOS3.HTM (for Boston Team Stats)

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708LAL3.HTM (for LA Team Stats)

Actually now you are being nonsensical.  Only a nonsensical person would quote regular season stats when discussing post season issues. 
The Lakers average 105.9 ppg vs. opponents 99.5.  A differential of +6.4.  And they have a shooting percentage of 47.75%.  Boston averages 91.6 ppg vs. opponents 87.3 ppg.  A differential of +4.3.  They have a shooting percentage of 44.8%.  I would give you the numbers per 100 possessions but as one of your fellow CelticBloggers pointed out 82games.com has not been updated for 3 weeks.  So actually our numbers have dropped slightly during the playoffs, but yours have dropped dramatically.  I will take momentum any day.

Nonsensical................get a clue.

[Sweet17]

Actually the Lakers defense in general is better then Clevelands. (5th best in the league).

But unfortunately for the Lakers I see several poor matchups and I don't know how they can fix them. Guys slump - like Ray Allen did. But barring that kind of failure from Pierce (and it seems unlikely) he should eat up ANYONE they put on him. In like fashion they have absolutely no one to even BOTHER Garnett, IMHO.

I hope House gets some burn because he can really punish LA for doubling Pierce and KG which they will have to do.
Cleveland IMHO exposed a weakness that the C's have - they have trouble with LOTS OF SIZE up front. The Lakers don't have that though.

Cleveland's size and length totally ruined Perkins. Surprisingly Wally's size and strength really messed up Ray Allen. Will Kobe shut down Ray? I don't see it. Kobe is going to want to sag off him and he should do quite well.

I know I am a homer but I can't get over the almost universal doom and gloom predictions for the C's. It's just crazy. We have three studs and some great matchups.. Kobe is going to have to show me he is that good - cause frankly I ain't seeing it.

Pete

[tanner]

About this 'underrated' Lakers defense, did some digging and came up with some comparative playoff stats:

FG% allowed (source: ESPN)

Celtics -- 42.15%
Cavs -- 42.56%
Lakers -- 43.34%
Pistons -- 44.6%
Spurs -- 45.51%

% of close Shots to total number of shots allowed (source: 82games)

Hornets -- 28%
Celtics -- 31%
Cavs -- 31%
Spurs -- 35%
Lakers -- 42%
Pistons -- 43%

Underrated?  May be so.  The 43.3% FG is better than I imagined.  But to give more credit than that?  Not with an interior D that allows 11% more shots inside the paint than the Celtics or Cavs. 

May be surprising Lakers D numbers are close to the Pistons. Pistons did play very good defense but only in stretches. They couldn't seem to sustain it throughout games.  Celtics outscored them in the paint for all but one game.

How about the Spurs-Lakers series? Let's look at two Spurs players oft-mentioned.  A lot has been made that Duncan shot one of his all-time lower FG% in this series, 42%. But his FG% this postseason hasn't been all that great to begin with--shooting 49% and 42% against Phoenix and Hornets respectively. Duncan shot respectably (48% and 47%) in the first two of three games against the Lakers.  However, Gasol and the Lakers did keep Duncan below 40% taking a whole lot of shots in Games 4 and 5.

So what gives?  The answer is somewhere between.  Vujacic did a good job pestering Ginobili but at the same time you cannot discount his injury had a lot to do with his not shooting well and not being able to drive adeptly and create shots for his teammates.  How does a player shooting 43% and 45% in the previous two series suddenly shoot an abysmal 35%?  Would Laker fans have us believe Vujacic had become a lock-down defender overnight?       

Another interesting number is that the Lakers outscored the Spurs in the paint between 12-16 points in three out of the five games.  Begs another question, was it the old, vaunted Spurs defense the Lakers faced? Or is Kobe and the Lakers that scary good offensively?

[Albatros99]

Vujacic did a good job pestering Ginobili but at the same time you cannot discount his injury had a lot to do with his not shooting well and not being able to drive adeptly and create shots for his teammates.  How does a player shooting 43% and 45% in the previous two series suddenly shoot an abysmal 35%?  Would Laker fans have us believe Vujacic had become a lock-down defender overnight?       

I have just watched game seven of the San Antonio New Orleans series. In that game Ginobili shoots the ball very well from the three point line and gets 20 points +. He barely scored a basket penetrating in the lane. The Hornets doubled up on Duncan far more than the Lakers did. That's why San Antonio shot the ball much better from the three point line thanks to Tim great passing ability out of the double team.

In fact Ginobili had a great game in the series against the Lakers. That was game three (did he recover from his injury just for one game?) and playing exactly the same type of game he played in game seven against the Hornets, lighting it out from the three point lane.

So, if Ginobili didn't perform to his best against the Lakers neither did he against the Hornets, at least in game seven.

Ginobili numbers against the Lakers in game 3

http://www.nba.com/games/20080525/LALSAS/boxscore.html

[tanner]

Vujacic did a good job pestering Ginobili but at the same time you cannot discount his injury had a lot to do with his not shooting well and not being able to drive adeptly and create shots for his teammates.  How does a player shooting 43% and 45% in the previous two series suddenly shoot an abysmal 35%?  Would Laker fans have us believe Vujacic had become a lock-down defender overnight?       

I have just watched game seven of the San Antonio New Orleans series. In that game Ginobili shoots the ball very well from the three point line and gets 20 points +. He barely scored a basket penetrating in the lane. The Hornets doubled up on Duncan far more than the Lakers did. That's why San Antonio shot the ball much better from the three point line thanks to Tim great passing ability out of the double team.

In fact Ginobili had a great game in the series against the Lakers. That was game three (did he recover from his injury just for one game?) and playing exactly the same type of game he played in game seven against the Hornets, lighting it out from the three point lane.

So, if Ginobili didn't perform to his best against the Lakers neither did he against the Hornets, at least in game seven.

Ginobili numbers against the Lakers in game 3

http://www.nba.com/games/20080525/LALSAS/boxscore.html

First, Ginobili re-injured his left ankle in the first quarter of Game 1 against the Lakers.  There's also the fatigue factor having gone through a tough seven-game series recently and that plane sleep-over fiasco but will just chalk that to the first two games. 

Second, shooting 70% beyond the arc in Game 3 qualifies as a fluke.  His not driving as much and as aggressively to the lane and settling for all these 3-pointers should tell you something's not right with him.  Take out all those 3's, his 2-point FG plummets to 25%.  Not only did his FG% went down, he took over a third less shots, from 13-15 shots in NO to less than 8-9 by the time the series with the Lakers ended.  Twice he took more than 10 shots, Game 1 where he shot 23% and that fluke of a Game 3.

[Albatros99]

Vujacic did a good job pestering Ginobili but at the same time you cannot discount his injury had a lot to do with his not shooting well and not being able to drive adeptly and create shots for his teammates.  How does a player shooting 43% and 45% in the previous two series suddenly shoot an abysmal 35%?  Would Laker fans have us believe Vujacic had become a lock-down defender overnight?       

I have just watched game seven of the San Antonio New Orleans series. In that game Ginobili shoots the ball very well from the three point line and gets 20 points +. He barely scored a basket penetrating in the lane. The Hornets doubled up on Duncan far more than the Lakers did. That's why San Antonio shot the ball much better from the three point line thanks to Tim great passing ability out of the double team.

In fact Ginobili had a great game in the series against the Lakers. That was game three (did he recover from his injury just for one game?) and playing exactly the same type of game he played in game seven against the Hornets, lighting it out from the three point lane.

So, if Ginobili didn't perform to his best against the Lakers neither did he against the Hornets, at least in game seven.

Ginobili numbers against the Lakers in game 3

http://www.nba.com/games/20080525/LALSAS/boxscore.html

First, Ginobili re-injured his left ankle in the first quarter of Game 1 against the Lakers.  There's also the fatigue factor having gone through a tough seven-game series recently and that plane sleep-over fiasco but will just chalk that to the first two games. 

Second, shooting 70% beyond the arc in Game 3 qualifies as a fluke.  His not driving as much and as aggressively to the lane and settling for all these 3-pointers should tell you something's not right with him.  Take out all those 3's, his 2-point FG plummets to 25%.  Not only did his FG% went down, he took over a third less shots, from 13-15 shots in NO to less than 8-9 by the time the series with the Lakers ended.  Twice he took more than 10 shots, Game 1 where he shot 23% and that fluke of a Game 3.

You tell me when and how. Any link? The game was never stopped to treat him nor was he seen hobbling or anythink like that.
The problem with Ginobili was tiredness, nothing else. He played basically the same game against the Hornets (game 7) as against the Lakers (game 3)a wide open jumpshooter with thew occasional (unsuccesful mainly) drive to the basket. The amount of free throws he had against the Hornets were not due to him driving like mad but because of the Hornets fouling him in the final minutes to stop the clock.

Ginobili had fewer shots against the Lakers because the Lakers defended much better the three than the Hornets and Ginobili like most international players if the shots are not going in they stop taking them.

[tanner]

[
You tell me when and how. Any link? The game was never stopped to treat him nor was he seen hobbling or anythink like that.
The problem with Ginobili was tiredness, nothing else. He played basically the same game against the Hornets (game 7) as against the Lakers (game 3)a wide open jumpshooter with thew occasional (unsuccesful mainly) drive to the basket. The amount of free throws he had against the Hornets were not due to him driving like mad but because of the Hornets fouling him in the final minutes to stop the clock.

Ginobili had fewer shots against the Lakers because the Lakers defended much better the three than the Hornets and Ginobili like most international players if the shots are not going in they stop taking them.

For such a Laker fan with so adamant an opinion, the least you could do is use Google and backread articles during the series (something that I expected you would have been so eager reading while the series was going on, especially about the competition, but I guess not).  For your benefit:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/la-sp-spurs23-2008may23,0,3980557.story?track=rss

Ginobili says he's still hurting. And he's still refusing to make excuses for his Game 1 performance.

He tweaked a jammed left ankle in the first quarter on Wednesday and struggled throughout before ending with 10 points.

"You always want to play," Ginobili said. "In such a big game, even if you are not doing good, you think you are going to change things. I still felt like I could help the team and do things, but I didn't play good. That's the bottom line."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/la-sp-heisler24-2008may24,0,4778499.column?track=rss

Ginobili, once named El Contusion by teammate Brent Barry for the punishment he routinely takes barreling to the basket, has an ankle so sore, the Spurs might have shut him down for Game 2 if they had won Game 1.

As it was, Coach Gregg Popovich spent much of Friday night wondering when to lift the struggling Ginobili.

"You know, we wanted to take Manu out earlier," Popovich said, "and then he made a mistake and made two good moves in a row [in the third quarter] and then I got all excited again.

I think I've already made my point pretty clear.  Lakers D is ok but not great as you're arguing.  Believe what you want to believe.  Dismiss the injury and give all credit to an unbelievably great Lakers defense that the national media who are all over the Lakers have failed to mention--they've devoted tons of articles praising Kobe and the Lakers offense yet no mention of this great Lakers D that limited Ginobili to 35%.

[Albatros99]

[
You tell me when and how. Any link? The game was never stopped to treat him nor was he seen hobbling or anythink like that.
The problem with Ginobili was tiredness, nothing else. He played basically the same game against the Hornets (game 7) as against the Lakers (game 3)a wide open jumpshooter with thew occasional (unsuccesful mainly) drive to the basket. The amount of free throws he had against the Hornets were not due to him driving like mad but because of the Hornets fouling him in the final minutes to stop the clock.

Ginobili had fewer shots against the Lakers because the Lakers defended much better the three than the Hornets and Ginobili like most international players if the shots are not going in they stop taking them.

For such a Laker fan with so adamant an opinion, the least you could do is use Google and backread articles during the series (something that I expected you would have been so eager reading while the series was going on, especially about the competition, but I guess not).  For your benefit:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/la-sp-spurs23-2008may23,0,3980557.story?track=rss

Ginobili says he's still hurting. And he's still refusing to make excuses for his Game 1 performance.

He tweaked a jammed left ankle in the first quarter on Wednesday and struggled throughout before ending with 10 points.

"You always want to play," Ginobili said. "In such a big game, even if you are not doing good, you think you are going to change things. I still felt like I could help the team and do things, but I didn't play good. That's the bottom line."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/la-sp-heisler24-2008may24,0,4778499.column?track=rss

Ginobili, once named El Contusion by teammate Brent Barry for the punishment he routinely takes barreling to the basket, has an ankle so sore, the Spurs might have shut him down for Game 2 if they had won Game 1.

As it was, Coach Gregg Popovich spent much of Friday night wondering when to lift the struggling Ginobili.

"You know, we wanted to take Manu out earlier," Popovich said, "and then he made a mistake and made two good moves in a row [in the third quarter] and then I got all excited again.

I think I've already made my point pretty clear.  Lakers D is ok but not great as you're arguing.  Believe what you want to believe.  Dismiss the injury and give all credit to an unbelievably great Lakers defense that the national media who are all over the Lakers have failed to mention--they've devoted tons of articles praising Kobe and the Lakers offense yet no mention of this great Lakers D that limited Ginobili to 35%.

As I said having watched Ginobili 7th game vs the Hornets and his third game vs the Lakers I didn't see any significant difference in the way he played. Did you watch those games or just looked at the box score?. If he was seriously injured against the Lakers so was he against the Hornets. He barely drove to the basket against the Hornets in that game, and with poor success too. His 11 free throws are completely misleading as he was fouled 3 times in the close up of the game and he also took a technical free throw for ilegal defense.

Shooting more or less can be due to a multitude of factors.
For instance, against the Suns Ginobili took 11, 8 and 11 shots in the last 3 games of the series, a similar amount to that against the Lakers. In the previous two games he had taken far more shots. Did he get injured in the middle of that series too or did the Suns change their defensive approach against him?
What about Tim Duncan who shot far more against the Lakers than against the Hornets? Was he injured against the Hornets?. You may say, well, he was defended by Gasol who is clearly a worse defender than Chandler. And I can say Duncan was doubled up far less by the Lakers than by the Hornets so he took shots that against the Hornets were taken by the perimeter players.

If Ginobili seriously injured himself how do you explain game three against the Lakers when he scored more points per minutes played than in any other game in the playoffs?

Anyway, we will see how good or bad the Lakers defense is very soon.

Forgot to add one thing. Ginobili was defended by Stojakovic in the Hornets series for most of the minutes. He must be one of the poorest defenders out there in the playoffs. Curiously his numbers were better against him.

[Champzilla]

Seems like too many laker fans trolling

[Champzilla]

Should be a fun series.