Rationalizing the C's chances: A comparison of Lakers-Bulls; Kobe-Jordan

[Jon]

Let's also not forget that this is Kobe's first run at a title as the top dog on the team.  Keep in mind that he had Shaq leading the way the other three times who is arguably a top 10 player of all time and probably the most physically dominating player since Wilt Chamberlain. 

Shaq's not around this time. 

[fairweatherfan06]

Kobe does not equal Jordan (Not now, Not ever...Jordan was that good)
Gasol is nowhere near Pippen
Odom may be equal to Grant (average players on great teams)
The Lakers have noone who compares to Rodman
I'll give you that Fisher "MAY" be equal to Armstrong (I liked BJ)
Will Perdue took up a ton of space.
Those Bulls had a deep bench full of very good role players. Even with all of that talent they still had trouble getting past the Knicks, Cavs and Pistons in the playoffs so we shouldn't worry too much about how the C's got to the finals.

The Bulls never played a team in the finals with the Celtic's talent. I would compare the C's with the Rockets that won during Jordan's absense. I would have liked to see those two teams square off in the finals.

These finals resemble the Heat - Mavericks. Defence wins....Go Celtics.

TP to Analyst for that um...analysis.  I've always said the greatest finals matchup that never happened was the 95 finals between the Rockets and what should have been the Bulls until they got ambushed by this kid named Shaq and his partner Penny.

Kobe<Jordan but not by a lot.  He's the closest to him I've ever seen.   Our nucleus has 3 future hall of famers and arguably three top 100 (all-time) players.  Whereas at most the Bulls teams played teams with a nucleus of 2 top 100 players such as Stockton/Malone,  Barkley/Johnson (KJ is arguable), and Payton is a top 100 player and Kemp (at the time look and played like one) but his career well you know what happened....

So all is to say.  Its pretty close. and I think those factors plus our defense= a win for us.

[RebusRankin]

Jordan in 1992 at the age of 29:

34.5ppg, 5.8apg, 6.2rpg, .499 fg%, .386 3pt%, .857 ft%

Kobe this year at age 29

31.9ppg, 5.8apg, 6.1 rpg, .509 fg%, .814ft%, .295 3pt%.

Kobe's playing well and is close to Jordan's level but Jordan was better. As well, Jordan did his when you could hand check and be much more physical on defense.

[Finkelskyhook]

Jordan had the benefit of getting the Lebron treatment from the officials when everybody else in the NBA were getting officiated by the rulebook.  Jordan had the benefit of the flagrant push-offs, 4 step drives, and committing foul after foul without calls.  

Kobe and Paul get about an equal number of calls.  But nothing like Jordan while he was in his prime.  Jordan got a lot of unfair help along the way so it's hard to compare the two players.  

Stats and even championships don't come close to telling the story of the differences between the two players.  Jordan, like the messiah, was considered the face of the league in his prime.  Jordan's era was the beginning of the end of the NBA game being fun to watch.  I've never seen Kobe get away with obvious violations.   Kobe probably gets the least favoritism among the true superstars in the game today.  

Without the obvious officiating bias, I think Kobe is the better player.  With it, they're equals.  Kobe has tougher defensive matchups every night than Jordan did.  Jordan hardly ever played against two guards his own size.  Jordan's toughest defensive matchups in his prime were against players like Joe Dumars....generously 6-3 and Payton, 6-4.  Because of the change in the overall size and athletism in the NBA,  Kobe is practically always defended by players his own size or bigger.   Jordan didn't play against zone defenses.  Kobe plays against a variety of defenses that were illegal when Jordan was in his prime.

[Jon]

Kobe and Paul get about an equal number of calls.  But nothing like Jordan while he was in his prime.  Jordan got a lot of unfair help along the way so it's hard to compare the two players. 

Perhaps you missed Salvatore's call in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals...

[Finkelskyhook]

Kobe and Paul get about an equal number of calls.  But nothing like Jordan while he was in his prime.  Jordan got a lot of unfair help along the way so it's hard to compare the two players. 

Perhaps you missed Salvatore's call in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals...

Jordan was officiated like the messiah in Cleveland is today.  So by that stage of the game, Jon, Jordan would have gotten 7-8 calls worst and more obvious than the one Kobe got.  That's about the right ratio.  Jordan/Messiah about 8-1 officials favoritism over the league's other stars.  Except Jordan was the only one getting those calls in his era.  And like the ridiculous flagrant foul calls in the Cleveland series, the officials are so biased that comparing Kobe to Jordan or the Messiah as players is meaningless.  Jordan, like James today, play by a whole different set of rules.  Neither needs/needed the help, but got heaps of it anyway.

[Analyst]

Kobe does not equal Jordan (Not now, Not ever...Jordan was that good)
Gasol is nowhere near Pippen
Odom may be equal to Grant (average players on great teams)
The Lakers have noone who compares to Rodman
I'll give you that Fisher "MAY" be equal to Armstrong (I liked BJ)
Will Perdue took up a ton of space.
Those Bulls had a deep bench full of very good role players. Even with all of that talent they still had trouble getting past the Knicks, Cavs and Pistons in the playoffs so we shouldn't worry too much about how the C's got to the finals.

The Bulls never played a team in the finals with the Celtic's talent. I would compare the C's with the Rockets that won during Jordan's absense. I would have liked to see those two teams square off in the finals.

These finals resemble the Heat - Mavericks. Defence wins....Go Celtics.

TP to Analyst for that um...analysis.  I've always said the greatest finals matchup that never happened was the 95 finals between the Rockets and what should have been the Bulls until they got ambushed by this kid named Shaq and his partner Penny.

Kobe<Jordan but not by a lot.  He's the closest to him I've ever seen.   Our nucleus has 3 future hall of famers and arguably three top 100 (all-time) players.  Whereas at most the Bulls teams played teams with a nucleus of 2 top 100 players such as Stockton/Malone,  Barkley/Johnson (KJ is arguable), and Payton is a top 100 player and Kemp (at the time look and played like one) but his career well you know what happened....

So all is to say.  Its pretty close. and I think those factors plus our defense= a win for us.

I'm on your side Bro! Still to keep up with the argument: The C's have three future hall of famers -true, Rodman should have been one but his antics will keep him out. People sometimes forget how great he was with the Pistons before he ever came to Chicago via SA. All that being said it only adds to argument as to why the C's should have an easy time with LA. All they have is Kobe. Gasol: we'll find out, won't we. The rest of the cast are quite forgettable. If the Lakers win it should be considered a huge upset.

Just for the record, the Spurs whom LA beat in the playoffs were 2-6 against Boston, Detroit, Cleveland and Atlanta.

All I'm saying is I think a better comparison to the Bulls of the 90's would be the Lakers with Shak and Kobe. 2 greats vs 2 greats. This series is 2 greats plus a very good Ray Allen vs Kobe. It shouldn't even be close!

[RebusRankin]

Only a Lakers fan would think Kobe doesn't get the superstar calls.

 Jordan got the calls all right but watch his Bulls games on ESPN Classic, not as bad as now.

[Finkelskyhook]

Only a Lakers fan would think Kobe doesn't get the superstar calls.

 Jordan got the calls all right but watch his Bulls games on ESPN Classic, not as bad as now.

I've been a Celtic fan longer than you've been alive, Rebus. 

Today's officiating is so bad and so tiered toward the stars compared to  the Jordan era that the Jordan rules made the bias more obvious then.  Like the Messiah's bias.  If you're watching ESPN classic, watch the pre-Jordan games and find me a player who got "calls".  You won't find one.  Jordan was the only player who could do the 4-step travel in his era.  Jordan was the only player who could flagrantly push off, hack, and reach in front of the officials in his era.  Now, the Wades, Pierces, Carters, McGradys, Bryants, Nashs, Iversons, and Anthonys get called for traveling 1 in about 6 times they travel.  The messiah never gets called.  Ever.  Jordan never got called, either.  The difference in the two players is that Kobe gets calls that about a handful of the game's stars get.  Jordan, like James, was officiated by his own rules.  If you don't see the completely unfair advantage and bias Jordan (like the Messiah has today) had in his era, you're blind.  Kobe doesn't have close to that.  Even so, he's far and away the league's best player.

And I am no laker fan.

[fairweatherfan06]

Gasol is dangerous because he is the perfect type of big man for the triangle, Phil Jackson has NEVER in all his time coaching had a more perfect big man for his/Tex Winter's Triangle offensive scheme, that is where the danger is.  Where we make of the difference is on defense.  Odom is their
x-factor and Ray is ours.  (Don't get it twisted Ray is a top 100 player, as is Paul and both are just out of the top 75....while KG is top 30 probably top 25).   

[Neurotic Guy]

Gasol is dangerous because he is the perfect type of big man for the triangle, Phil Jackson has NEVER in all his time coaching had a more perfect big man for his/Tex Winter's Triangle offensive scheme, that is where the danger is.  Where we make of the difference is on defense.  Odom is their
x-factor and Ray is ours.  (Don't get it twisted Ray is a top 100 player, as is Paul and both are just out of the top 75....while KG is top 30 probably top 25).   

I've watched a lot of basketball over the last 40+ years but to be honest I am limited in my technical understanding of the triangle offense and how it is manifested by the Laker personnel (I see the Lakers once a year).  But I am not looking for a lesson in the triangle, rather, I am wondering about our response to it.  Using a football mentality, our defensive guru has had a full week to develop and then practice a 'scheme' to address the Laker offense. 

If Thibedeau is a defensive master, why would he be unable to formulate a plan (at least some wrinkle) to disrupt the trangle given the time to develop such a game plan and 3 full days to practice its execution?   

[aka_USAPA]

Just like the Spurs fans, the Celtics fans are not giving the Lakers any respect.   And that's just the way I like it.

[Barnabas]

NeuroticGuy "If Thibedeau is a defensive master, why would he be unable to formulate a plan (at least some wrinkle) to disrupt the trangle given the time to develop such a game plan and 3 full days to practice its execution?  "

It'll be interesting what kind of defensive plan the Celtic coaching staff will come up with.  I'm no expert but from all I've heard and read of the Triangle Offense, there are a wide array of possible responses to a given move by the defense.  So, if the Triangle is that complex, it must also be hard to anticipate what the offense is going to do.  If there are many possible actions the offense can take, then the defense also may need to have just as many ways to react.  The more questions on a test, the more material the test can cover.  Hence, the more material you have to study.  I don't know. 

I read that the teams that have defended Chicago's implementation of the triangle well in the past were the Pistons and the Knicks.  They played very physical, dirty defense.  They were holding, grabbing, bumping, clipping the Chicago players.  The goal was probably to delay them, upset their timing, or prevent them from getting to their specific spot, as the triangle is very structured.  Like you said, to disrupt the offense.  As we can tell looking back on history, that must have been very hard to do, and that NY and Detroit were not completely successfull at it, elsewise, Chicago would not have won all those banners! 

[fairweatherfan06]

The triangle depends on spacing so my guess would be the best way to disrupt it is to mess up their spacing on offense and to clog the passing lanes, now the how of that is the question.

[Analyst]

Having a player with long arms in position to disrupt the passer (aka Kevin Garnett) helps. He'll probably guard Gasol for that reason. Putting pressure on Fisher is also a must - for the triangle to be effective they have to have time on the shot clock. The C's won't give them much. I see them playing Cassell more during the finals simply to keep the pressure on Fisher simply to give Rondo a rest. If Kobe becomes the primary ball handler it will play into the C's hand since it will take them that much longer to get their offence set up. The Pistons showed thew world how to stop the Triangle when they beat the Shaq - Kobe - Moalone version of the Lakers. Clog the passing lanes and make the weakest link beat you. Back then it was their 7 footers that did the job on Shaq- Wallace, Campbell and Big Ben (played like a 7 footer). Their guards pressured Kobe forcing him to a series of bad shot selection. The Celtics version of PJ Brown (compares to Campell), Perkins (not quite Big Ben), Garnett (better than Wallace) will have an easier time stopping Gasol than the Pistons had stopping Shaq. There is no question that Pierce, Allen (whose always played good D against Kobe) and Posey will be somewhat effective at frustrating Kobe the way Billups, Prince and Hamilton did back in 2004. It's all about the number of fresh bodies you can throw at them. In that regard Kobe is not MJ. When MJ got frustrated he found wide open guys like Horace Grant who knock down the 18 footer and Steve Kerr. When Kobe gets frustrated he tries to prove he can do it by himself and the bigger the game - the more selfish he becomes. The Spurs simply didn't have enough talented bodies to throw at them just like the Lakers don't have enough talented bodies to stop Pierce and Garnett. Guys like Walton and Odom better play over their heads or this series will last only 5.