Tom Thibodeau's teams vs. the triangle

[Celtic]

The whole term "Triangle Offense" is so overrated, all it is is 3 main scoring options and some semblance of an order in which they defer to one another. For all intents and purposes, the Celtics run a triangle offense as well, one of the many reasons why Phil is so overrated.

[billysan]

The whole term "Triangle Offense" is so overrated, all it is is 3 main scoring options and some semblance of an order in which they defer to one another. For all intents and purposes, the Celtics run a triangle offense as well, one of the many reasons why Phil is so overrated.

I think it is a little deeper than that, the triangle (as I see it) was always based on having 3 players on the floor who are basicaly interchangeable. All 6'6" to 6'9" and very athletic guys who could play anyone man to man from perimeter to the post. (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman etc.) The current Lakers with Gasol do not run a true triangle in my mind. They are more of an inside outside with Kobe creating and Gasol posting up. Derek Fisher is the safety outlet at the three point line and Lamar Odom on the weak side blocks.

Just my opinion though.

[jackson_34]

No Phil Jackson team has ever had two big men like this. It changes the whole nature of Triangle and what they're capable of doing. That's why the Lakers ball movement has been by far the best in association. I don't think you'll find anything useful out by checking Thibs record in the past, this Lakers team is too different from the previous squads.

What about Shaq and the Mailman?

I'm pretty sure he means two bigmen with extended range and the ability to play outside the paint.

[Cman]

The whole term "Triangle Offense" is so overrated, all it is is 3 main scoring options and some semblance of an order in which they defer to one another. For all intents and purposes, the Celtics run a triangle offense as well, one of the many reasons why Phil is so overrated.

I think it is a little deeper than that, the triangle (as I see it) was always based on having 3 players on the floor who are basicaly interchangeable. All 6'6" to 6'9" and very athletic guys who could play anyone man to man from perimeter to the post. (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman etc.) The current Lakers with Gasol do not run a true triangle in my mind. They are more of an inside outside with Kobe creating and Gasol posting up. Derek Fisher is the safety outlet at the three point line and Lamar Odom on the weak side blocks.

Just my opinion though.

Exactly my thinking as well.  I know little about the heralded Triangle Offense except that it is supposed to take a lot of time and practice to perfect -- something that the Lakers have not been able to do since Gasol joined in mid-February.  In other words, Gasol is too new to the system for the Lakers to be using it.  Maybe next year there will complex schemes, but not this year.

[FLCeltsFan]

Here is a page from Phil Jackson's playbook explaining the Triangle Offense.   

[cool breeze]

I'm certainly not an expert myself, but here are a few cool links that help with the Triangle Offense history and implementation:
http://www.nba.com/step_up/lamisil_lakers_triangle.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_offense

Oh yeah, Celts in 6. 

[Celtic]

Here is a page from Phil Jackson's playbook explaining the Triangle Offense.   

TP, that is great.

If the triangle offense is more than meets the eye, then I concede to the other posters. However, in my lifetime I have never seen anything out of the ordinary with Phil Jackson's offense. Kobe and Shaq was simply a perfect mix of swingman and big, with a lot of good jump shooting role players, as well as a team of referees that would refuse to allow any team to beat them, especially the Kings in game 6 in 2002. The only reason the Bulls were so potent offensively is obvious, Luc Longley, he was the backbone of those teams, without him, Jordan would have just been the next Clyde Drexler.

[Chris]

as to whose team this is: doc's or thib's?

obviously it is doc's, i agree. but this is thib's defense. it was said at the beginning of the year how doc's ego may be affected because of thib's prominent role. apparently, doc, unlike past years, allowed the defensive coach (thib in this case) to do his thing without too much questioning. though i completely understand doc is the coach and could at any time overrule anything thib says, i just think doc was more accepting of allowing thib to do his thing. and obviously it has paid off beautifully, allowing doc to concentrate more fully on other facets of the game he is better equipped to deal with.

Doc has always turned over the reigns to the defense over to an assistant completely.  Up until this year, that assistant was Tony Brown.  If Doc isn't going to get the credit for the implementation of the defense this year, any more than choosing to hire Thibodeau, then he also does not deserve any blame for the crappy defense the last couple of years, other than trusting Tony Brown.

[chibi]

http://espn.go.com/ncb/2003/0128/1499926.html

here's the pretty good link describing and analyzing the triangle, complete with diagrams. 

[Triboy16]

Triangle offense works if kobe can penetrate consistantly pull two guys to guard him where he can pass the ball for an open jumper or extra pass. That won't work with us , cuz our help defense is the best in the league. Perk will stay in the middle and intimidate other players like kobe form diving in. Kg will like the middle to interior guardog. We got pierce, allen and rondo to do the rest from the 3 point to the middle.


Another interesting question is i wonder how the lakers defense will work against our offense. We got a sweet inside to outside game. I look forward to ray allens new surge, we need to also trust perk more.

[Who]

No Phil Jackson team has ever had two big men like this. It changes the whole nature of Triangle and what they're capable of doing. That's why the Lakers ball movement has been by far the best in association. I don't think you'll find anything useful out by checking Thibs record in the past, this Lakers team is too different from the previous squads.

What about Shaq and the Mailman?

I'm pretty sure he means two bigmen with extended range and the ability to play outside the paint.

Yes I do. More skill set than overall ability.

Gasol is the best passing big man to ever play for Phil and his passing changes the whole nature of the Triangle. It makes everything so much more dangerous. For example Phil had to change the Triangle when Shaq was there because Shaq didn't want to leave the paint to help ball movement. Shaq also did not like to move much side to side so player movement from the centre position was limited in the paint also. This irritated Tex Winter but Phil made the adjustments because it was in Shaq's and the team's best interests but not the Triangle offense's best interest. Gasol opens up so much more options than any previous centre has in this offense.

Then you have Odom who has the skill set of a guard. None of Phil's previous teams have had a big man that can take you off the dribble the way Odom can. Add the passing, the jump shot and all the other skills.

The combination of Odom-Gasol is unique and it changes the whole the nature of the Triangle. Looking at previous ways it's been defended with different personnel will tell you very little.

[chibi]

Triangle offense works if kobe can penetrate consistantly pull two guys to guard him where he can pass the ball for an open jumper or extra pass. That won't work with us , cuz our help defense is the best in the league. Perk will stay in the middle and intimidate other players like kobe form diving in. Kg will like the middle to interior guardog. We got pierce, allen and rondo to do the rest from the 3 point to the middle.


Another interesting question is i wonder how the lakers defense will work against our offense. We got a sweet inside to outside game. I look forward to ray allens new surge, we need to also trust perk more.

I know the Celtics help defense is superb.  Sometimes it seems like there are 6 guys out there instead of just 5.  To me, the key match-up will be Kobe vs. Allen or Pierce.  I'm going to assume that Kobe can beat both those players off the dribble, but I want to hear your opinions on that subject.  In all honesty, do quick strong guards give those two trouble?  Specifically, do they regularly stay in front of their man, or do they rely on a help defender coming over, and defensive rotation?

You know, based on what I've seen in the playoffs, the Celtics offense has looked terrible.  There have been flashes of brilliance, what with some nice crisp ballmovement here and there.  Mainly, though, I've noticed that they try to get Allen open looks off screens; pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop with Rondo and Garnett; Pierce on isolations.  Sometimes it seems like there is too much standing around and Garnett's reluctance to shoot open shots sometimes is bewildering.   Fortunately your guys Perkins and Powe bail you out with offensive boards.

As far as the Laker defense goes, let's look at what they've done recently.  Ginobili was only able to use screens effectively in one game; but as his ankle bothered him, I don't know if that's a fair indication of how good the Lakers were chasing guards through screens.  Pick-and-roll defense was a concern for the Lakers throughout the year; that has gradually improved as the Lakers and Gasol have gotten familiar with each others' tendencies and timing.  They did good jobs against Boozer-and-Williams and Duncan-and-Parker.  Denver ran a lot of isolations; but Carmelo Anthony had a terrible series, and it's hard to chalk that up to Vladimir Radmanovic; Pierce should have success with his dribble-drive against Radmanovic, but as Raddy is 6'10" he may be more difficult to post up.