Tom Thibodeau's teams vs. the triangle

[libermaniac]

I know there is a Lakers/C's matchup thread, but I wanted to be more specific here. 

My specific question is:  Does anybody have any insight/numbers as to how Tom Thibodeau's teams (Rockets) have fared against the Laker's triangle offense?  To me, that's the key to the series.

[Harris34]

I was curious about the same thing actually. Would be great to see our resident stat crunchers come up with some data.

[TheReaLPuba]

If the C's are to win the championship then it won't matter.

You need to have players RISE to the occasion and it won't matter what scheme or what statistic is out there.

Players...teams...will themselves to win it all.

[tammer]

Well, he was two and 0 this year.  But, Gasol certainly changes the effectiveness of the triangle.  Nevertheless, don't totally discount those games, their center was having a heck of a year before his injury.  That was a very good team pre-Pau.

[Dirk]

Interesting stat if someone can come up with it. Would love to read about it 

[Roy Hobbs]

Lakers vs. Thibodeau teams:

2008: 0-2, 38.8 FG%, 31.5 3PT%, 92.5 ppg
2007: 2-2, 41.5 FG%, 32.8 3PT%, 98.8 ppg
2006: 2-1, 44.3 FG%, 35.5 3PT%, 89.0 ppg
2005: 2-2, 45.0 FG%, 34.2 3PT%, 99.3 ppg
2004: 2-2, 40.9 FG%, 42.4 3PT%, 90.8 ppg

I didn't bother with Thibodeau's Knicks teams.  There's really no discernible pattern just by looking at the raw numbers.  Somebody would have to look at how the Lakers' performances compare to their season averages in those years to see if it means anything.

[NUMBA 17]

these stats are nice.....I have one question though....the 108.5 ppg you have there...thats not what the Celtics gave UP to the Lakers, that must be what the Celts averaged scoring VS. the Lakers..

because the Celtics allowed 91 to the Lakers first game, and 94 in the 2nd...no way did they allow 108.5...

[Barnabas]

Back when the Pistons had the bad boys and Chuck Daly, they disrupted Chicago's Triangle offense by basically playing "dirty".  Which is usual for that Detroit team.  They would grab, clib, hold, bump, etc.  Basically, they did whatever it took, especially when the ref is looking elsewhere, to keep the Triangle from forming.  They disrupted the triangle and kept the Chicago players from getting to their spot.  I'm no coach or anything, but from everything I've heard and read about the Triangle, it depends on very precise movement, coordination, reaction, and decision from all five players.  What Detroit did was to disrupt the movement, by holding, grabbing, pushing, shoving, etc.  Basically, you play dirty to disrupt the very precise, very complicated offense.  

I'm not sure if that's what Thibodeau is planning to do.  Somehow that type of defense leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.  If there is another way to stop it, that would certainly be preferable to playing dirty.

[Who]

No Phil Jackson team has ever had two big men like this. It changes the whole nature of Triangle and what they're capable of doing. That's why the Lakers ball movement has been by far the best in association. I don't think you'll find anything useful out by checking Thibs record in the past, this Lakers team is too different from the previous squads.

[nickagneta]

I understand that this is basically a thread that is dedicated to the fact that the crux of the matter regarding the Celtic's best chance of winning is the Celtic defense versus the Laker offense, but what does coach Thibodeau have to do with it?

Coach Tom is a very competent defensive minded coach who has a very good skill of teaching defensive basketball. He does not bring a defensive scheme to the table. He teaches head coaches defensive schemes to players.

This is not Coach Thibodeau's team or coach Thibodeau's defensive scheme. Those things are Doc's. I have posted this numerous times on this site. Here is an audio file from the Big Show where Danny Ainge states that Coach Thibodeau gets a bit to much credit for what is happening defensively with this team and that the defensive scheme is Doc's.

Start listening with 11:30 in already. Danny states emphatically that this is Doc's scheme and that Coach T coaches it up:

http://audio.weei.com/m/18827930/danny_ainge.htm?col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&q=big+show&match=QUERY&seek=160.029

That said, Doc coached teams with Boston are 4-4 vs. LA and considering the talent that the Celtics have had since Doc became coach, that's pretty good.

Of course this year with the talent the Celtics had the numbers are astoundingly good vs. LA but how much of that is given to the talent on the team and how much of that is given to Coach Tom teaching Doc's schemes better than Doc can is extremely subjective.

[Chris]

I understand that this is basically a thread that is dedicated to the fact that the crux of the matter regarding the Celtic's best chance of winning is the Celtic defense versus the Laker offense, but what does coach Thibodeau have to do with it?

Coach Tom is a very competent defensive minded coach who has a very good skill of teaching defensive basketball. He does not bring a defensive scheme to the table. He teaches head coaches defensive schemes to players.

This is not Coach Thibodeau's team or coach Thibodeau's defensive scheme. Those things are Doc's. I have posted this numerous times on this site. Here is an audio file from the Big Show where Danny Ainge states that Coach Thibodeau gets a bit to much credit for what is happening defensively with this team and that the defensive scheme is Doc's.

Start listening with 11:30 in already. Danny states emphatically that this is Doc's scheme and that Coach T coaches it up:

http://audio.weei.com/m/18827930/danny_ainge.htm?col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&q=big+show&match=QUERY&seek=160.029

That said, Doc coached teams with Boston are 4-4 vs. LA and considering the talent that the Celtics have had since Doc became coach, that's pretty good.

Of course this year with the talent the Celtics had the numbers are astoundingly good vs. LA but how much of that is given to the talent on the team and how much of that is given to Coach Tom teaching Doc's schemes better than Doc can is extremely subjective.

I heard Doc talking about it earlier in the year on WEEI.  It is actually Pat Riley's defensive system, and both Doc and Thibodeau come from the Riley coaching tree. 

It is Doc's system (meaning it is the same system that he has tried to use throughout his coaching career), but it also happens to be the same system that Thibodeau has used throughout his career as well.

The difference this year has been that 1. the players are much better, and 2. Thibodeau is much more detail oriented, and seems to be a better teacher than Tony Brown (who was in his position the last couple years.

[bowlingwarnie]

Actually Paul Pierce (when pretty much by himself), has beaten the Lakers in their championship years with offensive outbursts... ie. 'the truth' game

None of these stats matter as the two teams assembled have never played each other

Phil Jax's team is a lot different to his previous Lakers team and is his Bulls squads with No discernable center

[nickagneta]

I understand that this is basically a thread that is dedicated to the fact that the crux of the matter regarding the Celtic's best chance of winning is the Celtic defense versus the Laker offense, but what does coach Thibodeau have to do with it?

Coach Tom is a very competent defensive minded coach who has a very good skill of teaching defensive basketball. He does not bring a defensive scheme to the table. He teaches head coaches defensive schemes to players.

This is not Coach Thibodeau's team or coach Thibodeau's defensive scheme. Those things are Doc's. I have posted this numerous times on this site. Here is an audio file from the Big Show where Danny Ainge states that Coach Thibodeau gets a bit to much credit for what is happening defensively with this team and that the defensive scheme is Doc's.

Start listening with 11:30 in already. Danny states emphatically that this is Doc's scheme and that Coach T coaches it up:

http://audio.weei.com/m/18827930/danny_ainge.htm?col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&q=big+show&match=QUERY&seek=160.029

That said, Doc coached teams with Boston are 4-4 vs. LA and considering the talent that the Celtics have had since Doc became coach, that's pretty good.

Of course this year with the talent the Celtics had the numbers are astoundingly good vs. LA but how much of that is given to the talent on the team and how much of that is given to Coach Tom teaching Doc's schemes better than Doc can is extremely subjective.

I heard Doc talking about it earlier in the year on WEEI.  It is actually Pat Riley's defensive system, and both Doc and Thibodeau come from the Riley coaching tree. 

It is Doc's system (meaning it is the same system that he has tried to use throughout his coaching career), but it also happens to be the same system that Thibodeau has used throughout his career as well.

The difference this year has been that 1. the players are much better, and 2. Thibodeau is much more detail oriented, and seems to be a better teacher than Tony Brown (who was in his position the last couple years.

Exactly!!

That's all I've been trying to say regarding Coach T for most of the last 4 months or so. He's great ta teaching this scheme but many on this site mistakenly give way too much credit to Thibodeau and often state it is his scheme that he brought in that is the difference.

As you said so very well Chris, it is Doc's scheme that he learn elsewhere(I thought it was from Fratello but will trust the Riley connection you mentioned) and Thibodeau must teach it better than Tony Brown considering Tom's successes teaching this or a similar scheme elsewhere. But the talent here is so vastly different, and especially for the players who were here last year, and more mature than anything Doc has had in the past, it's hard to tell which reason is the reason for this team's success.

But numbers don't lie. The Lakers averaged 108.6 PPG from their players this year with a shooting percentage of 47.6%. Against Boston the Lakers averaged 92.5 PPG and 39.5% from the field and had an average of 15.5 TOPG, only 9.5 ORPG, and were outrebounded in both games.

Heady stuff indeed. I thin the Celtics win just about every matchup in the starting lineups but one. So have Ray do his best guarding Kobe and let Kobe do his thing and beat up the other guys in the lineup and shut them down. This is the key to beating LA. Celts do it they win. But if Odom and Gasol have a big series and Fisher plays Rondo to a standstill, Lakers may win.  

[MLG5]

as to whose team this is: doc's or thib's?

obviously it is doc's, i agree. but this is thib's defense. it was said at the beginning of the year how doc's ego may be affected because of thib's prominent role. apparently, doc, unlike past years, allowed the defensive coach (thib in this case) to do his thing without too much questioning. though i completely understand doc is the coach and could at any time overrule anything thib says, i just think doc was more accepting of allowing thib to do his thing. and obviously it has paid off beautifully, allowing doc to concentrate more fully on other facets of the game he is better equipped to deal with.

and i wonder if anyone else noticed this during the Bos-Det gm 6 post-game conference with KG and PP. some reporter asked KG about the new defensive mind set of the c's. to which garnett responded (quite tellingly i think) "...well i can't tell you how many times during the season we wanted to ring tom's (thib's) neck (during practice)..." (that was a paraphrase). the point is when asked about the defense, KG, subconsciously or not, made clear the fact that thib ran the details of the defense (at least during practice - i don't think this would change during the game).

for all the doc detracors out there (and i am often one of them), he did help lead us to the nba finals, with that we cannot argue. however, thib's role on this team was so [dang] important. and thankfully thib will probably be back next year (that is the plus-side to the c's going 7 games with both atlanta and cleveland - the prolonged schedule didn't let thib interview with any other teams during that period, which the c's were going to allow him to do had those series ended earlier).

[Jon]

No Phil Jackson team has ever had two big men like this. It changes the whole nature of Triangle and what they're capable of doing. That's why the Lakers ball movement has been by far the best in association. I don't think you'll find anything useful out by checking Thibs record in the past, this Lakers team is too different from the previous squads.

What about Shaq and the Mailman?