The bench killed the team tonight

[nickagneta]

When the 5 starters were in, the Celtics controlled the game. 



Lineup with all 5 starters, Celtics were plus 7




With any of the starters out, the Celtics were minus 13. 






Makes me wish Perkins got some 4th quarter minutes. 

P.J. Brown wasn't really the reason why the Celtics couldn't come all the way back in the 4th.

He was a +3 for the quarter with 4 points, 1 assist, and 1 rebound and played good defense.

Perk may have helped a little but it wasn't like he was hot as all hell or playing great ball.

The fourth was about dumb, stupid mistakes on defense and when the Celtics didn't do that, Detroit made huge shots after 23 seconds of near perfect defense.

Two things that Perkins does that could have made a difference.


1) rebounding.  Brown didn't show up on the boards tonight.  Might have erased one or two of the offensive rebounds.

2) defense.  Those drives look a little different with Perk in the lineup.  And he does a better job then PJ closing out on the big men. 



Now, I am not blaming the lose on PJ. 


The entire bench needs to take a hit. 


And I think it is fair to ask why the most productive unit wasn't used in the 4th. 

I see your points, especially about the rebounding because those offensive rebounds in the 4th killed them late.

But I like P.J. in with the rest of the starters late in the game because he makes good decisions, can consistently hits that J from 10 feet when the defense collapes on everyone in the paint, he isn't a bad free throw shooter and because Perk's tendency for bad, stupid fouls and his bad free throw shooting make him a bit of a liability late in games.

That said, the bench sucked.

The bench played like they have when the team has been on the road this postseason. They just never showed up. Awful.

For the Celtic to advance, and they can, the bench doesn't have to come in and be +20 and put up 40 points a night. But they have to come in, continue playing stellar defense, and at least give the Celtics 15 to 20 points. The production tonight just can't continue if the C's expect to win.

[Roy Hobbs]

James Posey has really been ineffective on both ends of the court for most of the last series and this series.  The C's need Posey to be big in Detroit to win.  I also think we will see Sam Saturday night.

Yeah, he's been pretty bad.  Five points or less in seven straight games, and he's only shot better than 25% in one of those games.  4-for-18 in his last seven.

[CT34]

James Posey has really been ineffective on both ends of the court for most of the last series and this series.  The C's need Posey to be big in Detroit to win.  I also think we will see Sam Saturday night.

Yeah, he's been pretty bad.  Five points or less in seven straight games, and he's only shot better than 25% in one of those games.  4-for-18 in his last seven.

I look it at like this who does Posey usually come in for?  Paul Pierce right?

over the last 4 game or so Paul Pierce has been playing over 40 minutes a game and Paul has been on a roll.  So James Posey minutes have been effected by it.  Not to mention the fact that he has been called upon to guard LeBron James and put pressure on the ball.  So he has been spend on the defensive side of the ball.  I also think when he has been in the game over the last 4 game Posey been on the court with Eddie House.  House isn't a drive and kick PG like Rondo and even to a degree Sam Cassell. So there is a lot of factors that go into the reason why Posey hasn't been Posey on the offensive in. But I think he has been playing sound D.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

As I have consistently advocated, I think the lack of minutes Leon Powe has received has made him less effective when he does play and deprived the Celtics of a key energy source to help them during bad periods, like the late 3rd quarter/early 4th quarter yesterday.  He simply isn't getting enough minutes to even get into the flow of the game.

Here is a post on the game and Powe's status from a blog devoted to the topic: http://leonpowe.blogspot.com/2008/05/doc-rivers-doesnt-like-leon.html

[Roy Hobbs]

James Posey has really been ineffective on both ends of the court for most of the last series and this series.  The C's need Posey to be big in Detroit to win.  I also think we will see Sam Saturday night.

Yeah, he's been pretty bad.  Five points or less in seven straight games, and he's only shot better than 25% in one of those games.  4-for-18 in his last seven.

I look it at like this who does Posey usually come in for?  Paul Pierce right?

over the last 4 game or so Paul Pierce has been playing over 40 minutes a game and Paul has been on a roll.  So James Posey minutes have been effected by it.  Not to mention the fact that he has been called upon to guard LeBron James and put pressure on the ball.  So he has been spend on the defensive side of the ball.  I also think when he has been in the game over the last 4 game Posey been on the court with Eddie House.  House isn't a drive and kick PG like Rondo and even to a degree Sam Cassell. So there is a lot of factors that go into the reason why Posey hasn't been Posey on the offensive in. But I think he has been playing sound D.

It's not like because Paul has been getting 40 minutes, Posey has been getting only eight.  Over his last six games, he's gotten no less than 13 minutes (with a high of 26), and is averaging 17.5 minutes per game.  Minutes are not an excuse.

[CT34]

I'm not going to say that our bench killed us.  Look at the Piston beside Stucky and a couple of plays made by Hunter the Piston bench hasn't do anything.  

What killed the Celtics last night was fouls,fouls,fouls and pour defense which goes along with the bad fouls. That's what killed the Celtics.  The Piston went to the line too many times last night and they is the reason why the won the game.  

Also on other thing that killed the Celtics was way too many jump shoots.  The Celtics are at their best when they attack the basket.  The opens up the three point shooters like Posey, Allen and House.  It also puts the other team into foul trouble.  The three guys that are key to the Celtics attack mode is Rondo, Pierce and KG. I thought Pierce did a good job last night but Rondo and KG could have do more.

[CT34]

James Posey has really been ineffective on both ends of the court for most of the last series and this series.  The C's need Posey to be big in Detroit to win.  I also think we will see Sam Saturday night.

Yeah, he's been pretty bad.  Five points or less in seven straight games, and he's only shot better than 25% in one of those games.  4-for-18 in his last seven.

I look it at like this who does Posey usually come in for?  Paul Pierce right?

over the last 4 game or so Paul Pierce has been playing over 40 minutes a game and Paul has been on a roll.  So James Posey minutes have been effected by it.  Not to mention the fact that he has been called upon to guard LeBron James and put pressure on the ball.  So he has been spend on the defensive side of the ball.  I also think when he has been in the game over the last 4 game Posey been on the court with Eddie House.  House isn't a drive and kick PG like Rondo and even to a degree Sam Cassell. So there is a lot of factors that go into the reason why Posey hasn't been Posey on the offensive in. But I think he has been playing sound D.

It's not like because Paul has been getting 40 minutes, Posey has been getting only eight.  Over his last six games, he's gotten no less than 13 minutes (with a high of 26), and is averaging 17.5 minutes per game.  Minutes are not an excuse.

Your right minutes are not an excuse it's just one of them.  I also mention Posey playing D on Lebron. Posey being on the court most of the time without a true PG, and if you to take into account that teams have been staying home on Posey. They aren't allowing him to shoot three's. What Doc has to do for Posey and Ray is run more back screens and allow them to get to the basket.  I notice Ray Allen has been running more back screen then I've even seen since we got Ray.

[wdleehi]

I bet if someone wanted to break it down, a lot of the problems come in when someone besides Ray is play SG.  They didn't stay with Rip.  It causes the defense to react.  Leads to an easy shot. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

As I have consistently advocated, I think the lack of minutes Leon Powe has received has made him less effective when he does play and deprived the Celtics of a key energy source to help them during bad periods, like the late 3rd quarter/early 4th quarter yesterday.  He simply isn't getting enough minutes to even get into the flow of the game.

Here is a post on the game and Powe's status from a blog devoted to the topic: http://leonpowe.blogspot.com/2008/05/doc-rivers-doesnt-like-leon.html

Here's what you need to understand. Powe is currently our 9th man in our rotation. The freaking 9th man. Find me a team that gives big minutes to this guy. No team. You need to consider his role and what we need him to bring. Being our 9th man means short minutes just because he's at the end of the bench... the only reason a player like this should get extended minutes is if he's bringing good energy, doing the little things right, and defending. Powe hasn't been doing this consistently throughout the playoffs, especially doing the little things like rebounding and defending. He doesn't warrant big minutes, he's the freaking 9th man off the bench. If he can't do good regardless of how many minutes he plays, he's useless as a player and to us.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

BudweiserCeltic -- I think you make good points but it frustrates me the way you generalize.  Why not cite some experts or data?  Given the minutes issues Perkins has + the role Powe had in the second half of the regular season, the issue is one of *variation*.  Powe is #85 in Player Efficiency for the playoffs while Davis is at #126 (Perkins is at #89 and Brown is at #92 -- one of these four is not like the other).

I actually think the bench minute distribution matters given the way Rivers substitutes and the dead times the Celtics seem to often experience when they can't score and need a lift.  The Celtics seem to struggle in bunches, like in the late 3rd/early 4th yesterday.  When you do that you put yourself in a hole that makes it harder to come back from + means if you do come back you are more gassed. 
 
Beyond Powe, I would argue that the entire philosophy Doc Rivers uses to substitute players is flawed.  He has explicitly stated that he likes to play the "hot hand" and analogizes it to relief pitchers in baseball.  This is not the way the best baseball teams make pitching decisions anymore + it leads to these wacky patterns where House gets no minutes for 12 games then lots of minutes and Cassell goes from getting lots of minutes to zero minutes.

Anyways. . you and I clearly disagree about Powe -- what do you think of Doc's substitution patterns/philosophy in general?

As I have consistently advocated, I think the lack of minutes Leon Powe has received has made him less effective when he does play and deprived the Celtics of a key energy source to help them during bad periods, like the late 3rd quarter/early 4th quarter yesterday.  He simply isn't getting enough minutes to even get into the flow of the game.

Here is a post on the game and Powe's status from a blog devoted to the topic: http://leonpowe.blogspot.com/2008/05/doc-rivers-doesnt-like-leon.html

Here's what you need to understand. Powe is currently our 9th man in our rotation. The freaking 9th man. Find me a team that gives big minutes to this guy. No team. You need to consider his role and what we need him to bring. Being our 9th man means short minutes just because he's at the end of the bench... the only reason a player like this should get extended minutes is if he's bringing good energy, doing the little things right, and defending. Powe hasn't been doing this consistently throughout the playoffs, especially doing the little things like rebounding and defending. He doesn't warrant big minutes, he's the freaking 9th man off the bench. If he can't do good regardless of how many minutes he plays, he's useless as a player and to us.

[BudweiserCeltic]

BudweiserCeltic -- I think you make good points but it frustrates me the way you generalize.  Why not cite some experts or data?  Given the minutes issues Perkins has + the role Powe had in the second half of the regular season, the issue is one of *variation*.  Powe is #85 in Player Efficiency for the playoffs while Davis is at #126 (Perkins is at #89 and Brown is at #92 -- one of these four is not like the other).

Does efficiency also measure defense? I also I think you haven't realized that we're in the playoffs, this is a different monster all together. And I could care less about Davis, Powe has played more than Davis too, so I don't see that much of an issue.

And what generalization of mine bothers you? What about you doing some research yourself? You want an expert, what about listening to JVG, who's actually watching the game. I don't put too much stock into these so called experts that are in the media business though... they often have an ulterior motive to report things a certain way.

[CT34]

The key to this Piston series is not the play of our Bench.  It really comes down to two guys.  Rajon Rondo and Kendrick Perkins.  In game 1 Rondo and Perkins were the X factors.  Rondo controlled the game and Perks controlled the glass.  I went back and watch game 1 and I notice once Perk got the rebound he alway looks up the court to start the fast break.  In game 1 the Celtics push the ball in force the action.  When they was doing that Rondo or Perk had a hand in starting that action.

Also Perkins played GREAT defense on Rasheed Wallace.  Last night in the 4th Rasheed has PJ Brown on him and like Monday game Rasheed was at this best when he was being guarded by PJ. 

So to me the x factors are Rondo and Perkins.