Author Topic: Doc has passed the threshold  (Read 10316 times)

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Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2008, 10:35:51 PM »

Offline Bahku

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<snip>

While I agree that he'll most likely be back next year, (probably a 90% chance), I don't agree that he should be back next year. I like Doc very much, but have seen enough this year, and especially in these playoffs, to know the he is in way over his head, and does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully.

<snip>

I'm the first to say Doc has made some questionable decisions (and some good ones, though more questionable than good, it's important to remember this), but what exactly is your standard for "competently coaching an NBA team successfully"?  How massive was his margin for error this year if a chronically incompetent coach can win 66 games and (at least) make the Conference Finals?  Yes, he makes mistakes, some of which are maddening to many of us, and yes the team has struggled in the playoffs - some of that goes to Doc, but quite a bit goes to a lack of playoff experience between the playoffs, and tentative play overall.  And, net result, however we've done it, we've won...

I understand why people don't like Doc or many of his decisions, and I side with them on individual criticisms most of the time, but the idea that he is a horrible coach, or one who is literally incapable of being successful, is a bit ridiculous.  Red freaking Auerbach never had a winning % as high as Doc had this year - don't get me wrong, Doc couldn't carry Red's jock as a coach, but if a totally incompetent coach pulled that off, he must have about the best roster in NBA history.

Again, this isn't to say Doc is a Hall of Fame coach or one of the best in the league, but to say he's "incapable of succeeding" with a +.800 regular season and a conference finals trip begs the question of exactly what successful means these days.

I don't see how anyone can honestly say that we have the record we do this year because of Doc. C'mon ... check out his record from last year! The main reason we have the record we do this season, is because of KG, Ray, and the other personnel adjustments made in the off-season, not Doc. Any average coach could have done well with this team that's literally crammed with talent.

If you want a truer assessment of Doc's affect based on record, then you have to take his overall record, not just from a year overflowing with basketball ability. Using just this season as a litmus for judging Doc's coaching ability is highly unrealistic, at best, and his overall record shows far more accurately what his coaching ability produces: .444 = Below Average.
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Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2008, 10:49:16 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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<snip>

While I agree that he'll most likely be back next year, (probably a 90% chance), I don't agree that he should be back next year. I like Doc very much, but have seen enough this year, and especially in these playoffs, to know the he is in way over his head, and does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully.

<snip>

I'm the first to say Doc has made some questionable decisions (and some good ones, though more questionable than good, it's important to remember this), but what exactly is your standard for "competently coaching an NBA team successfully"?  How massive was his margin for error this year if a chronically incompetent coach can win 66 games and (at least) make the Conference Finals?  Yes, he makes mistakes, some of which are maddening to many of us, and yes the team has struggled in the playoffs - some of that goes to Doc, but quite a bit goes to a lack of playoff experience between the playoffs, and tentative play overall.  And, net result, however we've done it, we've won...

I understand why people don't like Doc or many of his decisions, and I side with them on individual criticisms most of the time, but the idea that he is a horrible coach, or one who is literally incapable of being successful, is a bit ridiculous.  Red freaking Auerbach never had a winning % as high as Doc had this year - don't get me wrong, Doc couldn't carry Red's jock as a coach, but if a totally incompetent coach pulled that off, he must have about the best roster in NBA history.

Again, this isn't to say Doc is a Hall of Fame coach or one of the best in the league, but to say he's "incapable of succeeding" with a +.800 regular season and a conference finals trip begs the question of exactly what successful means these days.

I don't see how anyone can honestly say that we have the record we do this year because of Doc. C'mon ... check out his record from last year! The main reason we have the record we do this season, is because of KG, Ray, and the other personnel adjustments made in the off-season, not Doc. Any average coach could have done well with this team that's literally crammed with talent.

If you want a truer assessment of Doc's affect based on record, then you have to take his overall record, not just from a year overflowing with basketball ability. Using just this season as a litmus for judging Doc's coaching ability is highly unrealistic, at best, and his overall record shows far more accurately what his coaching ability produces: .444 = Below Average.


Again, I wasn't arguing that Doc is a great coach, or that ALL our success was due to him.  What I said was in response to you saying Doc "does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully."  My question was, if he's inherently incapable of succeeding, what do you consider this year to be?  How big of a margin of error did we have that a horrible coach can get 66 wins and at least a ECF trip?  Not to mention that he has one COY award and one 2nd place finish. 

I don't mind the criticism of Doc, and I agree with a lot of it - I certainly haven't complimented him much in these posts - but the hyperbole gets a little ridiculous.  To say he's incapable of success falls into that category, I think, since by any definition he has done so this season 

Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2008, 11:01:51 PM »

Offline Bahku

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<snip>

While I agree that he'll most likely be back next year, (probably a 90% chance), I don't agree that he should be back next year. I like Doc very much, but have seen enough this year, and especially in these playoffs, to know the he is in way over his head, and does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully.

<snip>

I'm the first to say Doc has made some questionable decisions (and some good ones, though more questionable than good, it's important to remember this), but what exactly is your standard for "competently coaching an NBA team successfully"?  How massive was his margin for error this year if a chronically incompetent coach can win 66 games and (at least) make the Conference Finals?  Yes, he makes mistakes, some of which are maddening to many of us, and yes the team has struggled in the playoffs - some of that goes to Doc, but quite a bit goes to a lack of playoff experience between the playoffs, and tentative play overall.  And, net result, however we've done it, we've won...

I understand why people don't like Doc or many of his decisions, and I side with them on individual criticisms most of the time, but the idea that he is a horrible coach, or one who is literally incapable of being successful, is a bit ridiculous.  Red freaking Auerbach never had a winning % as high as Doc had this year - don't get me wrong, Doc couldn't carry Red's jock as a coach, but if a totally incompetent coach pulled that off, he must have about the best roster in NBA history.

Again, this isn't to say Doc is a Hall of Fame coach or one of the best in the league, but to say he's "incapable of succeeding" with a +.800 regular season and a conference finals trip begs the question of exactly what successful means these days.

I don't see how anyone can honestly say that we have the record we do this year because of Doc. C'mon ... check out his record from last year! The main reason we have the record we do this season, is because of KG, Ray, and the other personnel adjustments made in the off-season, not Doc. Any average coach could have done well with this team that's literally crammed with talent.

If you want a truer assessment of Doc's affect based on record, then you have to take his overall record, not just from a year overflowing with basketball ability. Using just this season as a litmus for judging Doc's coaching ability is highly unrealistic, at best, and his overall record shows far more accurately what his coaching ability produces: .444 = Below Average.


Again, I wasn't arguing that Doc is a great coach, or that ALL our success was due to him.  What I said was in response to you saying Doc "does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully."  My question was, if he's inherently incapable of succeeding, what do you consider this year to be?  How big of a margin of error did we have that a horrible coach can get 66 wins and at least a ECF trip?  Not to mention that he has one COY award and one 2nd place finish. 

I don't mind the criticism of Doc, and I agree with a lot of it - I certainly haven't complimented him much in these posts - but the hyperbole gets a little ridiculous.  To say he's incapable of success falls into that category, I think, since by any definition he has done so this season 

First of all, I didn't say he was a horrible coach, or even intimate it, I said he was over his head, and doesn't have the tools to coach competently on the NBA level. I'm not saying anything ridiculous, just stating my opinion.

I've been a Doc fan and supporter for quite a while, and have weighed this heavily for some time. I don't take this thing lightly or just throw out "hyperbole" because I've got some axe to grind with Doc.

I'm stating these things because that's the way I see it. I've stated many times before this the reasons why I feel Doc is not a good coach, and yet I see very few facts from anyone for why he's a good coach, other than this year's record, which has more to do with the acquisitions of players than it does Doc's coaching ability.

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Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2008, 11:16:23 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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If Doc can put his past mistakes from the early rounds behind him and just coach at an average level for the rest of the playoffs, I'll be happy.  I'd like to see more coaching like in Game 7; Doc wasn't perfect, but he did make logical decisions that allowed the players to win it for him.

Doc is coming back next year.  I tend to agree with Bahku's assessment, but hopefully he can prove many of us wrong.

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Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2008, 11:31:05 PM »

Offline Raygus

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i fully realize that doc will be the coach of this team next year. with that said, i have to wonder what the top brass will be thinking if they dont win this year. i dont see the celtics getting swept, but say we lose in 6 or 7 games. does anyone honestly think that GPA, one year older, will get it done (possibly) without posey and (possibly) without house with Doc at the helm? can this team get that much better to nullify doc's bonehead rotations and terrible play-calling?

i realize that we won games 5 and 7 with doc shortening the rotation and doing the right things at the right times. i just have to wonder if the next series goes 7 games, will he really be able to pull that off again. i certainly hope so, but even so, i've gotta think that this team has reached its peak with Doc at the helm. if they lose this year, i dont think they'll win with him as coach. and if that's the case, do you really bring a guy back for a year only to lose a year out of a 3 year window when GPA will still all be playing at a high level.

didnt mean to bust out the negativity. i just think that if this team is going to win while being coached by glenn rivers, this has to be the year.

Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2008, 11:31:56 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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<snip>

While I agree that he'll most likely be back next year, (probably a 90% chance), I don't agree that he should be back next year. I like Doc very much, but have seen enough this year, and especially in these playoffs, to know the he is in way over his head, and does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully.

<snip>

I'm the first to say Doc has made some questionable decisions (and some good ones, though more questionable than good, it's important to remember this), but what exactly is your standard for "competently coaching an NBA team successfully"?  How massive was his margin for error this year if a chronically incompetent coach can win 66 games and (at least) make the Conference Finals?  Yes, he makes mistakes, some of which are maddening to many of us, and yes the team has struggled in the playoffs - some of that goes to Doc, but quite a bit goes to a lack of playoff experience between the playoffs, and tentative play overall.  And, net result, however we've done it, we've won...

I understand why people don't like Doc or many of his decisions, and I side with them on individual criticisms most of the time, but the idea that he is a horrible coach, or one who is literally incapable of being successful, is a bit ridiculous.  Red freaking Auerbach never had a winning % as high as Doc had this year - don't get me wrong, Doc couldn't carry Red's jock as a coach, but if a totally incompetent coach pulled that off, he must have about the best roster in NBA history.

Again, this isn't to say Doc is a Hall of Fame coach or one of the best in the league, but to say he's "incapable of succeeding" with a +.800 regular season and a conference finals trip begs the question of exactly what successful means these days.

I don't see how anyone can honestly say that we have the record we do this year because of Doc. C'mon ... check out his record from last year! The main reason we have the record we do this season, is because of KG, Ray, and the other personnel adjustments made in the off-season, not Doc. Any average coach could have done well with this team that's literally crammed with talent.

If you want a truer assessment of Doc's affect based on record, then you have to take his overall record, not just from a year overflowing with basketball ability. Using just this season as a litmus for judging Doc's coaching ability is highly unrealistic, at best, and his overall record shows far more accurately what his coaching ability produces: .444 = Below Average.


Again, I wasn't arguing that Doc is a great coach, or that ALL our success was due to him.  What I said was in response to you saying Doc "does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully."  My question was, if he's inherently incapable of succeeding, what do you consider this year to be?  How big of a margin of error did we have that a horrible coach can get 66 wins and at least a ECF trip?  Not to mention that he has one COY award and one 2nd place finish. 

I don't mind the criticism of Doc, and I agree with a lot of it - I certainly haven't complimented him much in these posts - but the hyperbole gets a little ridiculous.  To say he's incapable of success falls into that category, I think, since by any definition he has done so this season 

First of all, I didn't say he was a horrible coach, or even intimate it, I said he was over his head, and doesn't have the tools to coach competently on the NBA level. I'm not saying anything ridiculous, just stating my opinion.

I've been a Doc fan and supporter for quite a while, and have weighed this heavily for some time. I don't take this thing lightly or just throw out "hyperbole" because I've got some axe to grind with Doc.

I'm stating these things because that's the way I see it. I've stated many times before this the reasons why I feel Doc is not a good coach, and yet I see very few facts from anyone for why he's a good coach, other than this year's record, which has more to do with the acquisitions of players than it does Doc's coaching ability.



Well, I apologize if I've misconstrued what you've been saying: to me, saying someone is too incompetent to be successful at this level is at the very least intimating being horrible at their job, and seems to fly in the face of what's actually happened this year.  But I'm not interested in having a semantics argument on the internet, so we can respectfully agree to disagree.

Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2008, 11:42:43 PM »

Offline CeltsGM21

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<snip>

While I agree that he'll most likely be back next year, (probably a 90% chance), I don't agree that he should be back next year. I like Doc very much, but have seen enough this year, and especially in these playoffs, to know the he is in way over his head, and does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully.

<snip>
I'm the first to say Doc has made some questionable decisions (and some good ones, though more questionable than good, it's important to remember this), but what exactly is your standard for "competently coaching an NBA team successfully"?  How massive was his margin for error this year if a chronically incompetent coach can win 66 games and (at least) make the Conference Finals?  Yes, he makes mistakes, some of which are maddening to many of us, and yes the team has struggled in the playoffs - some of that goes to Doc, but quite a bit goes to a lack of playoff experience between the playoffs, and tentative play overall.  And, net result, however we've done it, we've won...

I understand why people don't like Doc or many of his decisions, and I side with them on individual criticisms most of the time, but the idea that he is a horrible coach, or one who is literally incapable of being successful, is a bit ridiculous.  Red freaking Auerbach never had a winning % as high as Doc had this year - don't get me wrong, Doc couldn't carry Red's jock as a coach, but if a totally incompetent coach pulled that off, he must have about the best roster in NBA history.

Again, this isn't to say Doc is a Hall of Fame coach or one of the best in the league, but to say he's "incapable of succeeding" with a +.800 regular season and a conference finals trip begs the question of exactly what successful means these days.

I don't see how anyone can honestly say that we have the record we do this year because of Doc. C'mon ... check out his record from last year! The main reason we have the record we do this season, is because of KG, Ray, and the other personnel adjustments made in the off-season, not Doc. Any average coach could have done well with this team that's literally crammed with talent.

If you want a truer assessment of Doc's affect based on record, then you have to take his overall record, not just from a year overflowing with basketball ability. Using just this season as a litmus for judging Doc's coaching ability is highly unrealistic, at best, and his overall record shows far more accurately what his coaching ability produces: .444 = Below Average.

Of course a lot of our record this year is because of our players, but you also can't blame Doc for last year.  Besides Pierce, all we had was some promise, and a lot of failed promise.  We had nothing.  I think a lot of good coaches would have had the same record with the roster we had last year.  I actually have more respect for Doc based on last year.  His team was always in every game, and even though our record was horrible, the team never gave up, and never really got blown out.  Not a lot of coaches could make their team play like that.  Heck, look at Riley this year.  He actually had a few very talented players, and they played pathetically.  A Doc Rivers team never seems to give up.

I just feel sorry for all the Doc haters.  No matter how much you complain, you will not be getting rid of Doc anytime soon.  But look at it this way... it will give you all the more to complain about after every loss, and sometimes even after wins.  Just trying to stay positive.  As for me, I'm glad to have Doc back.  And most importantly, I'm sure the players are glad to have him now and in the future.  Congrats to Doc and the Celtics for making it to the Eastern Conference Finals.  A lot of hard work has come into fruition.

Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2008, 11:48:23 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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<snip>

While I agree that he'll most likely be back next year, (probably a 90% chance), I don't agree that he should be back next year. I like Doc very much, but have seen enough this year, and especially in these playoffs, to know the he is in way over his head, and does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully.

<snip>
I'm the first to say Doc has made some questionable decisions (and some good ones, though more questionable than good, it's important to remember this), but what exactly is your standard for "competently coaching an NBA team successfully"?  How massive was his margin for error this year if a chronically incompetent coach can win 66 games and (at least) make the Conference Finals?  Yes, he makes mistakes, some of which are maddening to many of us, and yes the team has struggled in the playoffs - some of that goes to Doc, but quite a bit goes to a lack of playoff experience between the playoffs, and tentative play overall.  And, net result, however we've done it, we've won...

I understand why people don't like Doc or many of his decisions, and I side with them on individual criticisms most of the time, but the idea that he is a horrible coach, or one who is literally incapable of being successful, is a bit ridiculous.  Red freaking Auerbach never had a winning % as high as Doc had this year - don't get me wrong, Doc couldn't carry Red's jock as a coach, but if a totally incompetent coach pulled that off, he must have about the best roster in NBA history.

Again, this isn't to say Doc is a Hall of Fame coach or one of the best in the league, but to say he's "incapable of succeeding" with a +.800 regular season and a conference finals trip begs the question of exactly what successful means these days.

I don't see how anyone can honestly say that we have the record we do this year because of Doc. C'mon ... check out his record from last year! The main reason we have the record we do this season, is because of KG, Ray, and the other personnel adjustments made in the off-season, not Doc. Any average coach could have done well with this team that's literally crammed with talent.

If you want a truer assessment of Doc's affect based on record, then you have to take his overall record, not just from a year overflowing with basketball ability. Using just this season as a litmus for judging Doc's coaching ability is highly unrealistic, at best, and his overall record shows far more accurately what his coaching ability produces: .444 = Below Average.

Of course a lot of our record this year is because of our players, but you also can't blame Doc for last year.  Besides Pierce, all we had was some promise, and a lot of failed promise.  We had nothing.  I think a lot of good coaches would have had the same record with the roster we had last year.  I actually have more respect for Doc based on last year.  His team was always in every game, and even though our record was horrible, the team never gave up, and never really got blown out.  Not a lot of coaches could make their team play like that.  Heck, look at Riley this year.  He actually had a few very talented players, and they played pathetically.  A Doc Rivers team never seems to give up.

I just feel sorry for all the Doc haters.  No matter how much you complain, you will not be getting rid of Doc anytime soon.  But look at it this way... it will give you all the more to complain about after every loss, and sometimes even after wins.  Just trying to stay positive.  As for me, I'm glad to have Doc back.  And most importantly, I'm sure the players are glad to have him now and in the future.  Congrats to Doc and the Celtics for making it to the Eastern Conference Finals.  A lot of hard work has come into fruition.

TP, and don't forget the multiple injuries and tanking that tamped those numbers down considerably. 

Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2008, 11:48:27 PM »

Offline Bahku

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<snip>

While I agree that he'll most likely be back next year, (probably a 90% chance), I don't agree that he should be back next year. I like Doc very much, but have seen enough this year, and especially in these playoffs, to know the he is in way over his head, and does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully.

<snip>

I'm the first to say Doc has made some questionable decisions (and some good ones, though more questionable than good, it's important to remember this), but what exactly is your standard for "competently coaching an NBA team successfully"?  How massive was his margin for error this year if a chronically incompetent coach can win 66 games and (at least) make the Conference Finals?  Yes, he makes mistakes, some of which are maddening to many of us, and yes the team has struggled in the playoffs - some of that goes to Doc, but quite a bit goes to a lack of playoff experience between the playoffs, and tentative play overall.  And, net result, however we've done it, we've won...

I understand why people don't like Doc or many of his decisions, and I side with them on individual criticisms most of the time, but the idea that he is a horrible coach, or one who is literally incapable of being successful, is a bit ridiculous.  Red freaking Auerbach never had a winning % as high as Doc had this year - don't get me wrong, Doc couldn't carry Red's jock as a coach, but if a totally incompetent coach pulled that off, he must have about the best roster in NBA history.

Again, this isn't to say Doc is a Hall of Fame coach or one of the best in the league, but to say he's "incapable of succeeding" with a +.800 regular season and a conference finals trip begs the question of exactly what successful means these days.

I don't see how anyone can honestly say that we have the record we do this year because of Doc. C'mon ... check out his record from last year! The main reason we have the record we do this season, is because of KG, Ray, and the other personnel adjustments made in the off-season, not Doc. Any average coach could have done well with this team that's literally crammed with talent.

If you want a truer assessment of Doc's affect based on record, then you have to take his overall record, not just from a year overflowing with basketball ability. Using just this season as a litmus for judging Doc's coaching ability is highly unrealistic, at best, and his overall record shows far more accurately what his coaching ability produces: .444 = Below Average.


Again, I wasn't arguing that Doc is a great coach, or that ALL our success was due to him.  What I said was in response to you saying Doc "does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully."  My question was, if he's inherently incapable of succeeding, what do you consider this year to be?  How big of a margin of error did we have that a horrible coach can get 66 wins and at least a ECF trip?  Not to mention that he has one COY award and one 2nd place finish. 

I don't mind the criticism of Doc, and I agree with a lot of it - I certainly haven't complimented him much in these posts - but the hyperbole gets a little ridiculous.  To say he's incapable of success falls into that category, I think, since by any definition he has done so this season 

First of all, I didn't say he was a horrible coach, or even intimate it, I said he was over his head, and doesn't have the tools to coach competently on the NBA level. I'm not saying anything ridiculous, just stating my opinion.

I've been a Doc fan and supporter for quite a while, and have weighed this heavily for some time. I don't take this thing lightly or just throw out "hyperbole" because I've got some axe to grind with Doc.

I'm stating these things because that's the way I see it. I've stated many times before this the reasons why I feel Doc is not a good coach, and yet I see very few facts from anyone for why he's a good coach, other than this year's record, which has more to do with the acquisitions of players than it does Doc's coaching ability.



Well, I apologize if I've misconstrued what you've been saying: to me, saying someone is too incompetent to be successful at this level is at the very least intimating being horrible at their job, and seems to fly in the face of what's actually happened this year.  But I'm not interested in having a semantics argument on the internet, so we can respectfully agree to disagree.

Doc has had good games this year, but I feel he's not competent to be consistently successful in the NBA ... that's not approaching "horrible" in my frame of reference, but as you say, it's semantics.

I don't think he's a horrible coach, or terrible, or lousy, or rotten ... I'd put him at about his rating: .444 = below average, and that's far less than what I'd like to see for the coach of the Celtics.

The whole thing, including my very humble and irrelevant opinion, is moot, as he'll no doubt be our coach next year regardless. All that said, I'll agree to disagree, and a TP for the good discussion!
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Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2008, 12:00:18 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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The whole thing, including my very humble and irrelevant opinion, is moot, as he'll no doubt be our coach next year regardless. All that said, I'll agree to disagree, and a TP for the good discussion!

Right back at you...here's hoping whatever his actual ability is, it's at least one iota better than we need to win 2 more series - winning is the ultimate deodorant, as they say (or maybe just me).  Cheers!

Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2008, 12:05:02 AM »

Offline Bahku

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The whole thing, including my very humble and irrelevant opinion, is moot, as he'll no doubt be our coach next year regardless. All that said, I'll agree to disagree, and a TP for the good discussion!

Right back at you...here's hoping whatever his actual ability is, it's at least one iota better than we need to win 2 more series - winning is the ultimate deodorant, as they say (or maybe just me).  Cheers!

I concur, Bud ... and we agree on just about everything else ... seems a bit incongruous to get too far into this one. NHF
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Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2008, 03:49:45 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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<snip>

While I agree that he'll most likely be back next year, (probably a 90% chance), I don't agree that he should be back next year. I like Doc very much, but have seen enough this year, and especially in these playoffs, to know the he is in way over his head, and does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully.

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I'm the first to say Doc has made some questionable decisions (and some good ones, though more questionable than good, it's important to remember this), but what exactly is your standard for "competently coaching an NBA team successfully"?  How massive was his margin for error this year if a chronically incompetent coach can win 66 games and (at least) make the Conference Finals?  Yes, he makes mistakes, some of which are maddening to many of us, and yes the team has struggled in the playoffs - some of that goes to Doc, but quite a bit goes to a lack of playoff experience between the playoffs, and tentative play overall.  And, net result, however we've done it, we've won...

I understand why people don't like Doc or many of his decisions, and I side with them on individual criticisms most of the time, but the idea that he is a horrible coach, or one who is literally incapable of being successful, is a bit ridiculous.  Red freaking Auerbach never had a winning % as high as Doc had this year - don't get me wrong, Doc couldn't carry Red's jock as a coach, but if a totally incompetent coach pulled that off, he must have about the best roster in NBA history.

Again, this isn't to say Doc is a Hall of Fame coach or one of the best in the league, but to say he's "incapable of succeeding" with a +.800 regular season and a conference finals trip begs the question of exactly what successful means these days.

I don't see how anyone can honestly say that we have the record we do this year because of Doc. C'mon ... check out his record from last year! The main reason we have the record we do this season, is because of KG, Ray, and the other personnel adjustments made in the off-season, not Doc. Any average coach could have done well with this team that's literally crammed with talent.

If you want a truer assessment of Doc's affect based on record, then you have to take his overall record, not just from a year overflowing with basketball ability. Using just this season as a litmus for judging Doc's coaching ability is highly unrealistic, at best, and his overall record shows far more accurately what his coaching ability produces: .444 = Below Average.


Again, I wasn't arguing that Doc is a great coach, or that ALL our success was due to him.  What I said was in response to you saying Doc "does not possess the tools to competently coach an NBA team successfully."  My question was, if he's inherently incapable of succeeding, what do you consider this year to be?  How big of a margin of error did we have that a horrible coach can get 66 wins and at least a ECF trip?  Not to mention that he has one COY award and one 2nd place finish. 

I don't mind the criticism of Doc, and I agree with a lot of it - I certainly haven't complimented him much in these posts - but the hyperbole gets a little ridiculous.  To say he's incapable of success falls into that category, I think, since by any definition he has done so this season 

First of all, I didn't say he was a horrible coach, or even intimate it, I said he was over his head, and doesn't have the tools to coach competently on the NBA level. I'm not saying anything ridiculous, just stating my opinion.

I've been a Doc fan and supporter for quite a while, and have weighed this heavily for some time. I don't take this thing lightly or just throw out "hyperbole" because I've got some axe to grind with Doc.

I'm stating these things because that's the way I see it. I've stated many times before this the reasons why I feel Doc is not a good coach, and yet I see very few facts from anyone for why he's a good coach, other than this year's record, which has more to do with the acquisitions of players than it does Doc's coaching ability.



Well, I apologize if I've misconstrued what you've been saying: to me, saying someone is too incompetent to be successful at this level is at the very least intimating being horrible at their job, and seems to fly in the face of what's actually happened this year.  But I'm not interested in having a semantics argument on the internet, so we can respectfully agree to disagree.

Doc has had good games this year, but I feel he's not competent to be consistently successful in the NBA ... that's not approaching "horrible" in my frame of reference, but as you say, it's semantics.

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I don't think he's a horrible coach, or terrible, or lousy, or rotten ... I'd put him at about his rating: .444 = below average, and that's far less than what I'd like to see for the coach of the Celtics.


The whole thing, including my very humble and irrelevant opinion, is moot, as he'll no doubt be our coach next year regardless. All that said, I'll agree to disagree, and a TP for the good discussion!
Just for the sake of keeping it real for accuracy, I thought I'd throw this in:

- Doc Rivers record during the regular season is 339-328 for a winning percentage of .508, so I guess that makes him better than average

- Doc Rivers winning percentage in the playoffs is .444. Of course if he wins the next two playoff series in 6 games each he will be 24-24 all time in the playoffs with a winning percentage of .500 with one championship to his name.

-Coaches with their regular season winning percentages:

Bernie Bickerstaff .447
Hubie Brown .486
P J Carlesimo .417
Maurice Cheeks .508
Mike Dunleavy .478
Bill Fitch .460
Eddie Jordan .452
Nate McMillan .477
Dick Motta .479
Rick Pitino .466
Jack Ramsay .525
Byron Scott .487
Gene Shue .477
Paul Westhead .450
Lenny Wilkens .536

There are some very impressive names on this list and 3 Hall of Fame coaches. Do you think any less of them now that you know their career regular season winning percentages?

- Postseason winning percentages of coaches:

Danny Ainge .250
Bernie Bickerstaff .364
Hubie Brown .492
Larry Brown .519
P J Carlesimo .250
Rick Carlisle .484
Doug Collins .395
Mike D'Antoni .510
Bill Fitch .505
Cottn Fitzsimmons .417
Mike Fratello .323
Del Harris .432
George Karl .428
Dick Motta .444
Don Nelson .452
Jack Ramsay .431
Flip Saunders .489
Jerry West .364
Lenny Wilkens .449

Again another very impresive list of names of coaches with a couple of Hall of Famers thron in. Does anyone think less of these guys now that you know their postseason winning percentages?

- I think it funny that a guy like Lenny Wilkens can be in the Hall of Fame as a coach with winning percentages extremely similar to Doc's current percentages but people here might consider him with reverence and Doc with disdain.

Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008, 07:38:25 AM »

Offline lefty12

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too bad negative TP's were eliminated....

a discussion that dissects and analyzes the future of a coach that has won 74 games in one season has to be the most prepostorus premise this blog has ever seen.

where is the head-to-head matchup discussion?

Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2008, 09:06:22 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Quote from: nickagneta
Just for the sake of keeping it real for accuracy, I thought I'd throw this in:

- Doc Rivers record during the regular season is 339-328 for a winning percentage of .508, so I guess that makes him better than average

Winning percentage certainly isn't the be all and end all, either in the regular season or post-season.  I'm assuming nick's post meant to convey that idea, but to the extent it didn't, it's a wrong-minded argument.

K.C. Jones -- never the world's best coach, by any stretch of the imagination -- has a .643 winning percentage in the regular season, and a .570 winning percentage in the playoffs.  That puts him above Jerry Sloan and Larry Brown on both accounts, and ahead of Pat Riley in terms of regular season win percentage.   

However, that doesn't mean a coach's win/loss record, especially in the playoffs, is irrelevant.  If a coach's team continually struggles in the playoffs against equal or lesser teams, or if he repeats the same mistakes repeatedly lessening his team's chances of winning, that could very well be reflected in a poor win/loss record.

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Re: Doc has passed the threshold
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2008, 09:11:08 AM »

Offline 2Xplosive

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Doc had a great season getting 66 wins and able to manage a rotation. But the playoffs is different. What the heck was he thinking putting Ray in for so long when he knew he was no good for the night.