Author Topic: Where is Leon Powe?  (Read 10191 times)

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Where is Leon Powe?
« on: May 15, 2008, 11:55:57 AM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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Leon Powe was one of the top PER players in the NBA this season.  He is incredibly efficient on the court.  But his minutes are in free-fall right now.  What is going on?

1. Is this just a random Doc decision?  Even if Big Baby played well last night, you have to judge Doc by the *logic* he used to get to his decision, not the outcome of that decision.  Why wouldn't you play Powe?

2. Is Powe injured?

3. *Should* Powe get his minutes back?  I say yes.  Especially in something like the upcoming Game 6, a high energy guy like Powe is exactly what could give the Celtics a crucial lift when the Celtics have one of their down periods.


Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2008, 12:04:55 PM »

Offline Bankshot

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I think Powe has been slow to move his feet on defense, which is probably why Davis got a shot (even Fratello knew about the missed defensive assignments, as he mentioned it during the last broadcast he did).  Davis did play better defense than Perk and Powe against Cleveland during the regular season, so maybe Doc took a chance and see if Baby can do the same thing in the playoffs (and he has played well in big games during the regular season).  Didn't work out in game 4, but he did play well last night in game 5.  Hopefully, he can keep it up.  He has played well on the road in the regular season, maybe he can give the C's a spark on the road Friday night.
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Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2008, 12:09:29 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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Did you read Bill Simmons on this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080514

Or Chad Finn.  Key term: "broadcast lackeys"

http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2008/05/starting_five_celtics_96_cavs.html

Leon Powe brings offensive rebounding, the ability to finish by the basket, and HUGE energy.  The Celtics have had a total offensive meltdown in Cleveland.  They need Leon Powe.

I think Powe has been slow to move his feet on defense, which is probably why Davis got a shot (even Fratello knew about the missed defensive assignments, as he mentioned it during the last broadcast he did).  Davis did play better defense than Perk and Powe against Cleveland during the regular season, so maybe Doc took a chance and see if Baby can do the same thing in the playoffs (and he has played well in big games during the regular season).  Didn't work out in game 4, but he did play well last night in game 5.  Hopefully, he can keep it up.  He has played well on the road in the regular season, maybe he can give the C's a spark on the road Friday night.

Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2008, 12:12:22 PM »

Offline dobbs

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Doc Rivers is what's going on.  If Leon doesn't show well in the early parts of being inserted into the ballgame, Doc has gone away from him.  It's really that simple.  I think he went to BBD in the 4th of last night's game simply because Leon didn't do much in the 1st.

Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2008, 12:25:51 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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just for entertainment, here are the stats of davis and powe versus cleveland this year.

davis
16 min, 8.8 pts, 3.5 rb, 81.3% fg.

powe
9.3 min, 5.8 pts, 1.8 rb, 58.3% fg.

perhaps it is simply an issue of matchups. maybe various combos of smith, varajao, and Z maybe too much for powe under the basket?

davis has a bit more outside shooting range and speed, not to mention stength to hold his ground. powe is pretty much restricted to scoring directly under the basket, which plays into the blocking abilites of cleveland's front line.

but i am still glad the celtics have BOTH powe and davis. each has different talents and limits. having both on the bench may allow the celtics to play matchups better.
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Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2008, 03:43:27 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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It has always seemed like Doc only grudgingly gives Powe minutes.  Doc always gives him backhanded compliments in the media along the lines of "well, despite the fact that he is not good at X and Y, he had a good game".  Like when he had his big breakout game last year or when he started playing more this year after the Garnett injury.

Powe demonstrated in the regular season that he should get consistent minutes.  His PER rating was off the charts.  Better than some all stars.  But if he doesn't immediately score, he gets benched. .

just for entertainment, here are the stats of davis and powe versus cleveland this year.

davis
16 min, 8.8 pts, 3.5 rb, 81.3% fg.

powe
9.3 min, 5.8 pts, 1.8 rb, 58.3% fg.

perhaps it is simply an issue of matchups. maybe various combos of smith, varajao, and Z maybe too much for powe under the basket?

davis has a bit more outside shooting range and speed, not to mention stength to hold his ground. powe is pretty much restricted to scoring directly under the basket, which plays into the blocking abilites of cleveland's front line.

but i am still glad the celtics have BOTH powe and davis. each has different talents and limits. having both on the bench may allow the celtics to play matchups better.

Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2008, 03:45:29 PM »

Offline crownsy

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last night he played a bit poorley and i think doc decided to try baby. baby was phenominal, so ic an't really blame doc for stickign with him.

Ride the hot hand in the playoffs.
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Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2008, 03:57:01 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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I mean. .yeah -- if you look at the two minutes he played.  But a guy like that needs to get in the flow.  Obviously playing Davis worked out, the question is the *logic* used to get to that decision.

last night he played a bit poorley and i think doc decided to try baby. baby was phenominal, so ic an't really blame doc for stickign with him.

Ride the hot hand in the playoffs.

Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2008, 04:00:19 PM »

Offline crownsy

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I mean. .yeah -- if you look at the two minutes he played.  But a guy like that needs to get in the flow.  Obviously playing Davis worked out, the question is the *logic* used to get to that decision.

last night he played a bit poorley and i think doc decided to try baby. baby was phenominal, so ic an't really blame doc for stickign with him.

Ride the hot hand in the playoffs.

well i think the logic was "well, babys playing great, im going to stick with him till he gets cold" and baby never did.

I mean, im no huge doc fan, but i think that was a pretty easy decision.
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Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2008, 04:07:48 PM »

Offline Celtic

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He's had his chances and hasn't really earned his minutes in this series. In the playoffs you don't have a lot of time to wait for guys to get going, someone like Ray you will wait, Leon you wont.

Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2008, 04:14:45 PM »

Offline crownsy

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plus i think this thread is pretty premature to be honest. Leon got a ton of play in games 1 and 2, and a decent amount in game 3. Game 4 he got some but looked bad, but then so did everyone.

I don't think anyones cutting his minutes. the problem is you have about 10 minutes total for leon/baby a night in the playoffs. so really, 2 minutes for leon is a huge chunk to be bad over, and davis was good for his 8+.

doc always said it would be based on matchups, and last ngith certainly was, he was destroying sideshow bob.
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Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2008, 02:43:30 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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That's all fair.  I guess we will see what happens tonight and beyond.  But on the topic of Leon Powe, see this from John Hollinger of ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Awards_080516&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1)

"Put Me In Coach Award: Leon Powe, Celtics
Besides Kevin Garnett, the Celtics have four other big men. Of the four, Powe was easily the most effective in the regular season, but he's been an invisible man in the playoffs. Though the other three are struggling, Powe is averaging only 15.8 minutes per game in the postseason. In the past two games, he's sat in the second half while Doc Rivers played Glen Davis and P.J. Brown together.

This is a bizarre move. Powe, who gets little fanfare nationally, was one of the league's most effective power forwards in the regular season on a per-minute basis. His per-40 minute averages of 22.0 points and 11.2 boards jump off the page, as does his 57.2 percent shooting. In fact, Powe's 20.97 PER was seventh in the league among power forwards, outranking All-Stars Antawn Jamison, David West and Shawn Marion.

Given that Powe is both abundantly more effective statistically and has a massively better plus-minus in the postseason than Davis or Brown, it's been an odd choice to say the least. TNT's Mike Fratello alluded to five defensive mistakes Powe made in Game 2 of the Atlanta game during a telecast, presumably because Doc Rivers told him this. But one could also retort by pointing out all of the offensive mistakes that could be alleviated by having another frontcourt player in the game who actually scores once in a while. "

plus i think this thread is pretty premature to be honest. Leon got a ton of play in games 1 and 2, and a decent amount in game 3. Game 4 he got some but looked bad, but then so did everyone.

I don't think anyones cutting his minutes. the problem is you have about 10 minutes total for leon/baby a night in the playoffs. so really, 2 minutes for leon is a huge chunk to be bad over, and davis was good for his 8+.

doc always said it would be based on matchups, and last ngith certainly was, he was destroying sideshow bob.

Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2008, 03:16:33 PM »

Offline Tommy Gun

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I think Leon was getting beat by Clevelands bigs he just is'nt that tall when you get down to it..Glen Davis is shorter but carves out more space with his size and strength..

Who cares what his per is ..if the matchup does'nt work why stick with it
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Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2008, 03:21:21 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Both have had one good game (Powe also had an OK to go along with it)


Neither are being put in a position to succeed game to game in this series.   They need to just choose who they are going with and play them minutes in the 1st and 2nd half.   

Re: Where is Leon Powe?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008, 04:37:13 PM »

Offline kenmaine

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I love Leon and Big Baby, but Big Baby is just bigger, to put it simply. And Z is HUGE. As tough and energetic as Leon is, he looks like a kid beside Z.
If PJ continues to play fairly well, that will probably eat into Leon's time too.
Lastly, it's obvious that Doc is very reluctant to play Leon. Look how long it took before Doc would even use him at all- almost a year and a half.
Personally, I'd find a way to get Leon 15-20 minutes/game. But whether it's Leon, Big Baby, or PJ shouldn't be a deciding factor if everyone else has decent games.
In defense of Doc, every player on the roster can actually play, so he's got lots of options and when he makes a strange move, sometimes it will work. Now,.... about Ray Allen ???