Author Topic: Is it really Doc's fault?  (Read 46117 times)

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Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2008, 01:44:59 PM »

Offline Chief

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Who is Norman Dale?

This guy:








I'm not trying to call the poster out or be disrespectful because maybe he's not a movie fan or just never saw Hoosiers, but what basketball movie loving fan doesn't know who Norman Dale is?

Didn't he play on that show "Picket Fences"?







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Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2008, 01:51:34 PM »

Offline Scintan

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Rivers is a lousy coach, so watching him get outcoached by his opponents should come as no surprise to anyone.  He is hurting his team rather than helping it, as usual.

That said, Rivers is not the only reason this team is struggling in the playoffs.  There's plenty of blame to go around.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2008, 01:52:23 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Rivers is a lousy coach, so watching him get outcoached by his opponents should come as no surprise to anyone.  He is hurting his team rather than helping it, as usual.

That said, Rivers is not the only reason this team is struggling in the playoffs.  There's plenty of blame to go around.

Wow...  you're alive.

Good to have you posting.

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Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2008, 01:53:33 PM »

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I agree it makes no sense.  But that's what is happening on the floor.


Where were the plays design to get a guy open heading towards the basket? 


A different coach would have had the team playing it's best ball going into the playoffs, not during the mid season. 



Simple put, Doc is telling them to attack, but not putting the team in the best position to attack. 

Jumpshooting PG (Cassell) instead of a fast pace pushing PG (Rondo)

Jumpshooting big men (Brown and Davis) instead of big man that attacks the rim (Powe)

Why are you talking about the fourth quarter? I thought it was the third when Doc told them to attack the rim. I thought it was the third when they got into the penalty with lot of time on the clock. I thought it was the third when LeBron was in foul trouble.

Am I wrong? Was is the fourth when he told them to attack Cleveland? I was sure it was the third.


Yes, he said it in the third.

And what did he do to facilitate it?  Did he have players moving towards the basket or away and across the basket?

Or did he have them continue to run the same sets that get them open on the outside for jumpshots? 


And if he is so into the attacking in the third, why not continue that want going into the 4th?
Doc wanted them to attack Cleveland because they were in the penalty. Draw the foul and get easy points on the board.

Like the Hornets did last night against the Spurs. What did Scott do? He told them to attack the basket. What did his players do? They attacked the basket led by Paul's charge. They didn't need to change their offense, they just looked to create contact.

The Celtics' players didn't do it.

The offense has gotten FTs all year long. It's not the offensive strategy. The Celtics ranked 8th in the league for fouls drawn this season. The offense wasn't limiting them then and it's not limiting them now. There's plenty of opportunities to attack the rim, they're not taking them.

Like when KG gets his man on and up fake, he looks to go around him instead of taking the contact and drawing the foul. Or when Pierce settles for all those jump shots instead of driving it to the rim.

What's limiting them is the players execution and their performances. Not the offense.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2008, 01:59:12 PM »

Offline Scintan

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Rivers is a lousy coach, so watching him get outcoached by his opponents should come as no surprise to anyone.  He is hurting his team rather than helping it, as usual.

That said, Rivers is not the only reason this team is struggling in the playoffs.  There's plenty of blame to go around.

Wow...  you're alive.

Good to have you posting.

Thanks for saying that.  I truly appreciate it.  It's been 'interesting times' for me this past year, and I had to put some things on the back burner.  I'll try to be more active moving forward, no doubt to the chagrin of many. ;)


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2008, 02:01:30 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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To me, whether it's the offense, the defense, the players aren't doing what the coach says, etc. it all rest on Doc's shoulders.

He is the "Head Coach".

He is responsible for the performance of every person in the Celtic entourage.

He is responsible for Thibodeau's perforamnce if defense is the problem.

He is resonsible for changing the offesne if that's the problem.

He is responsible "to make the players listen to him if they are not" And yes, he could yank there minutes if they aren't. I'm pretty confident that Jackson and Popovich's players pretty much listen to them.

And I know that other teams are also struggling on the road in these playoffs but both Atlanta and Cleveland are teams we should be handily beating. Detroit...I'd expect a seven game war...
 
He is resonsible for everything.

"He who wears the crown wears the weight". That's the nature of the territory and that applies to Doc foremost and also to the KG, Pierce and Ray.

As Wheedli said and with which I agree...It is Doc's responsibility to put the players in the position to attack the rim, you can't just say it and then keep running an offesne that settles on Jump shots.

he shouldn't "try" to get KG in Better positions "at times" in game five. He should have gotten KG in better position after two plays in game four or any other game for that matter in which Kg was struggling getting great position 2 times ina row dwon the court.

He should have called a twenty ans said "I've watched KG struggle to get good position on the block two straight trips just now because of Cleveland's adjustment on defense. Next trip down the court we're gonna bring him up top run him through a pierce screen then a posey screen and then he's gonna swing across the lane through a screen by Perk...or whatever it is you do you know? You get the guy open.

I keep going back to this but it's a great illustration of the point alot of us are making:

In game four, you do not put your worst perimeter defender in Ray Allen on the hottest guy in the arena in Joe Johnson. you just flat out simply do not do that. It doens't matter that other guys might have missed assignments. Having Posey on JJ, Posey might have pushed through the screen or rolled around it. If you have  kobe or  bowen or a Posey/pierce, you use him. The fact that other missed assignments perhpas is irrelevant because your coach laready had not put you in the best position to win. It starts at the top.

Doc has to be the ultimate leader, the Patton, the one with the answers when they are needed. That's why he gets the paycheck he does and clifford Ray gets the one he gets.

and to me it doesn't matter if he had 8 all pros. he is still responsible to maximize their ability and push them beyond what they think they are capable of.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2008, 02:05:46 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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Rivers is a lousy coach, so watching him get outcoached by his opponents should come as no surprise to anyone.  He is hurting his team rather than helping it, as usual.

That said, Rivers is not the only reason this team is struggling in the playoffs.  There's plenty of blame to go around.

Wow...  you're alive.

Good to have you posting.

Thanks for saying that.  I truly appreciate it.  It's been 'interesting times' for me this past year, and I had to put some things on the back burner.  I'll try to be more active moving forward, no doubt to the chagrin of many. ;)

Wow, things aren't looking great and look who comes sauntering back...

Just kidding. And I agree with you. Simplicity is beautiful and oh so true.

Now let's turn this series around and regain momentum.
Go Celtics.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2008, 02:20:22 PM »

Offline Who

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Here's another stat:

The Celtics ranked third highest for number of free throw attempts earned per field goal attempt this season.

Stop calling this an offense that settles for jump shots. It's not that. The offense isn't dictating the players to settle for jump shots, they're doing it themselves.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2008, 02:35:25 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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Here's another stat:

The Celtics ranked third highest for number of free throw attempts earned per field goal attempt this season.

Stop calling this an offense that settles for jump shots. It's not that. The offense isn't dictating the players to settle for jump shots, they're doing it themselves.

Fair. You are absolutely correct in that, the players are settling too much for jump shots. I will say they don't have much choice unless they start running an offense that moves the ball.

I'm not calling it an offense that settles for jump shots, I'm calling it an offense without apparent design that relies on isolation plays, at least in critical situations.

As a coach, Doc has to pay attention to the officiating. The referees are letting contact down low go. It's happening on both sides of the court, it's not unfair officiating, it's just officiating that's going to let contact go. This is particularly true when you just have one guy trying to take men off the dribble and get to the lane. On those instances when Lebron dribbles his way to the lane, the refs are letting KG and Perk make contact with him, and he's missing a lot of shots where he usually at least gets bailed out with a foul call. Same with Pierce, if he just tries to take it in off the dribble and gets past the first man, the refs are not going to bail him out with a foul call.

Now, they may call fouls when you get into the lane through smart, crisp passing and the defense is recovering to try to stop a guy slashing to the lane without the ball and getting the ball on a pass. However, when one guy dribbles in and the defense is prepared, the refs are not going to call fouls, so why not drop the stupid isolation gimmick (which has been horrible for Paul Pierce for years) and utilize a game plan built on ball movement?
Go Celtics.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2008, 03:19:47 PM »

Offline Who

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Here's another stat:

The Celtics ranked third highest for number of free throw attempts earned per field goal attempt this season.

Stop calling this an offense that settles for jump shots. It's not that. The offense isn't dictating the players to settle for jump shots, they're doing it themselves.

Fair. You are absolutely correct in that, the players are settling too much for jump shots. I will say they don't have much choice unless they start running an offense that moves the ball.

I'm not calling it an offense that settles for jump shots, I'm calling it an offense without apparent design that relies on isolation plays, at least in critical situations.

The ball movement has been poor in the playoffs and very poor on the road. But you know, during the season the ball movement was very good. It was a big strength of this team. That was the offense then. It's not about the offense, it's about execution.

Boston ranked 8th in assists with 5 of the teams ahead of them being teams playing at a very high pace (Denver, Phoenix, Indiana, LA, Utah). The two others were Toronto and New Jersey. Assists aren't a perfect measure of ball movement but it's the best stat I can think of right now. It's very hard to be a high assist team without a point guard dominated offense (Toronto, NJ with Kidd) without having good ball movement. Boston aren't a point guard dominated offense, and they do have a high number of assists, and they aren't a top fastbreak team (18th in pace). The way they get most of their assists is by passing in the halfcourt.

It's the players, they've stopped making that extra pass. After every loss we hear Doc harping on at them to make the extra pass, that the ball movement isn't good enough. He wants more passing. The offense needs more passing. The players have to move the ball better. They're the problem right now, not the offense.

It's not the offensive strategy, it's the execution by the players.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2008, 03:34:28 PM »

Offline Scintan

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Here's another stat:

The Celtics ranked third highest for number of free throw attempts earned per field goal attempt this season.

Stop calling this an offense that settles for jump shots. It's not that. The offense isn't dictating the players to settle for jump shots, they're doing it themselves.

Fair. You are absolutely correct in that, the players are settling too much for jump shots. I will say they don't have much choice unless they start running an offense that moves the ball.

I'm not calling it an offense that settles for jump shots, I'm calling it an offense without apparent design that relies on isolation plays, at least in critical situations.

The ball movement has been poor in the playoffs and very poor on the road. But you know, during the season the ball movement was very good. It was a big strength of this team. That was the offense then. It's not about the offense, it's about execution.

Boston ranked 8th in assists with 5 of the teams ahead of them being teams playing at a very high pace (Denver, Phoenix, Indiana, LA, Utah). The two others were Toronto and New Jersey. Assists aren't a perfect measure of ball movement but it's the best stat I can think of right now. It's very hard to be a high assist team without a point guard dominated offense (Toronto, NJ with Kidd) without having good ball movement. Boston aren't a point guard dominated offense, and they do have a high number of assists, and they aren't a top fastbreak team (18th in pace). The way they get most of their assists is by passing in the halfcourt.

It's the players, they've stopped making that extra pass. After every loss we hear Doc harping on at them to make the extra pass, that the ball movement isn't good enough. He wants more passing. The offense needs more passing. The players have to move the ball better. They're the problem right now, not the offense.

It's not the offensive strategy, it's the execution by the players.

You seem to be ignoring the obvious, though.  This is the playoffs, not the regular season.  Opposing teams are talented and trying hard.  It's not just execution.  It's having Rondo on the court when his jumper isn't working.  It's not having Perkins on the court while you keep losing the rebounding battle each game.  It's other things like this, but I don't want to get running into another "Doc sucks" mode.  Let's just not pretend that Rivers is getting it done this series.  He's getting outcoached by Mike Brown.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2008, 03:39:07 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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I agree I think assists are a tremendous indicator of ball movement, particularly in an offense that doesn't revolve around the point guard, like Boston or LA. And I agree our ball movement has been atrocious in the playoffs compared to the regular season.

I just don't think it all comes down to execution. Nobody is open, so there's nobody to pass to. We don't have plays designed to get our best players open. One of the few times in Game 4 when I saw Allen get open for a 3 (late in the 3rd), it was because he pushed off Wally on the other side of the court and cut baseline out to the opposite perimeter. Granted, we need him to take the onus of doing that more often, but it indicated to me we're not running anything to get him open.

I realize that my comments take too much of the blame off the players. They are not reacting the way they need to react. This may be the true weakness of the team - not just Doc, but having an entire team, including the head coach, star players and all but two role players, who have not dealt with this type of playoff pressure and don't know how to make adjustments as a team. I put too much blame on Doc because I have always felt he's a lousy coach, and yes, our players are doing it too. They're not asserting themselves just like Doc isn't making any sort of corrections to alleviate our problems.

It's not all Doc's fault that our offense has completely sputtered. But he certainly shares a large portion of the blame. His reputation is supposed to be as an offensive coach. He's just not getting it done on that end.
Go Celtics.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2008, 03:41:27 PM »

Offline Who

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Here's another stat:

The Celtics ranked third highest for number of free throw attempts earned per field goal attempt this season.

Stop calling this an offense that settles for jump shots. It's not that. The offense isn't dictating the players to settle for jump shots, they're doing it themselves.

Fair. You are absolutely correct in that, the players are settling too much for jump shots. I will say they don't have much choice unless they start running an offense that moves the ball.

I'm not calling it an offense that settles for jump shots, I'm calling it an offense without apparent design that relies on isolation plays, at least in critical situations.

The ball movement has been poor in the playoffs and very poor on the road. But you know, during the season the ball movement was very good. It was a big strength of this team. That was the offense then. It's not about the offense, it's about execution.

Boston ranked 8th in assists with 5 of the teams ahead of them being teams playing at a very high pace (Denver, Phoenix, Indiana, LA, Utah). The two others were Toronto and New Jersey. Assists aren't a perfect measure of ball movement but it's the best stat I can think of right now. It's very hard to be a high assist team without a point guard dominated offense (Toronto, NJ with Kidd) without having good ball movement. Boston aren't a point guard dominated offense, and they do have a high number of assists, and they aren't a top fastbreak team (18th in pace). The way they get most of their assists is by passing in the halfcourt.

It's the players, they've stopped making that extra pass. After every loss we hear Doc harping on at them to make the extra pass, that the ball movement isn't good enough. He wants more passing. The offense needs more passing. The players have to move the ball better. They're the problem right now, not the offense.

It's not the offensive strategy, it's the execution by the players.

You seem to be ignoring the obvious, though.  This is the playoffs, not the regular season.  Opposing teams are talented and trying hard.  It's not just execution.  It's having Rondo on the court when his jumper isn't working.  It's not having Perkins on the court while you keep losing the rebounding battle each game.  It's other things like this, but I don't want to get running into another "Doc sucks" mode.  Let's just not pretend that Rivers is getting it done this series.  He's getting outcoached by Mike Brown.

It's about execution. Not totally about execution but close to total, the vast majority of the Celtics problems are down to their poor execution.

No, I do not think Mike Brown is out-coaching Doc Rivers and I do not think Mike Woodson out-coached Doc Rivers. That's not high praise either, I just don't think it's happened.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2008, 03:47:05 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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As much as I have loved what Danny did with the KG and Ray Allen and Posey and House situation, I think HE is to blame for the state of affairs now, not Doc. Danny is the one who tinkered with things when they weren't broken. HE brought in Sam and PJ when we really only needed a backup big when Pollard was put on DL. PJ was just fine, but Sam has thrown this team into a loop that it may not recover from. Not only has he played poorly, he has caused Rondo to lose confidence and play worse. You can't expect the young man to not look over his shoulder and fear being pulled. After playing the way he did all year at such a high level, he didn't deserve that. That was the issue. Doc has had no choice but to put Sam in the game. Danny is still the boss after all...

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2008, 03:49:53 PM »

Offline Scintan

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It's about execution. Not totally about execution but close to total, the vast majority of the Celtics problems are down to their poor execution.

No, I do not think Mike Brown is out-coaching Doc Rivers and I do not think Mike Woodson out-coached Doc Rivers. That's not high praise either, I just don't think it's happened.


Perkins is sitting on the bench while the team's getting outrebounded.  That's not execution.  Rondo being in the game on nights when he's not hitting his jumper means that the offense is playing 4 on 5 and Cleveland can ignore Rondo completely.  That's not execution.

Brown is killing Rivers.  He's got a far less talented team, and he's 2-2.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.