Author Topic: Is it really Doc's fault?  (Read 46112 times)

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Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2008, 10:45:58 AM »

Offline Andy Jick

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Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2008, 11:43:15 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Why is everyone talking about the offense when clearly the problem on the road has been the defense. This team is averaging giving up 75.5 points per game at home and 100 points per game on the road.

Wednesday was the only game this postseason that the Celtics held an opponent under 97 points in a game on the road. And even then if the could have just come up with some stops in the third and fourth quarters, the game was in reach.

Yes, the offense has looked bad on the road, but this team's offense has always flowed better when the defense is making stops. I couldn't find what the Celtics seasonal per game stat was for fast break points but they've only had 43 fast break points in 5 games on the road.

They are averaging 2.29 less steals per game on the road in the playoffs than they did during the season. They are averaging 1.02 less blocks on the road this postseason than they did during the regular season. They are averaging 8 less defensive rebounds per game on the road in the postseason than they did during the season.

On the road, I find these stats to be more disturbing than anything that is happening with the offense.

So, why isn't anyone calling out coach Thibodeau for this teams's lack of defense on the road this postseason?

Why?

Anyone?



Because he is in charge of the scheme.  And the scheme works.


The problem on the road with the defense isn't that the scheme changes, it is that the same effort and energy isn't there. 


Doc gets knocked more for his offense because he is also the head coach. 

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2008, 11:54:38 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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Benching Cassell and putting TA in the rotation would go a long way towards fixing the defense.  Having said that, they had one bad defensive game (game #3), in which the first unit was atrocious at both ends in the first quarter.  Their defense in game #4 was fine, except for when Cassell was in the game and was getting torched by everybody.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2008, 12:11:50 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Why is everyone talking about the offense when clearly the problem on the road has been the defense. This team is averaging giving up 75.5 points per game at home and 100 points per game on the road.

Wednesday was the only game this postseason that the Celtics held an opponent under 97 points in a game on the road. And even then if the could have just come up with some stops in the third and fourth quarters, the game was in reach.

Yes, the offense has looked bad on the road, but this team's offense has always flowed better when the defense is making stops. I couldn't find what the Celtics seasonal per game stat was for fast break points but they've only had 43 fast break points in 5 games on the road.

They are averaging 2.29 less steals per game on the road in the playoffs than they did during the season. They are averaging 1.02 less blocks on the road this postseason than they did during the regular season. They are averaging 8 less defensive rebounds per game on the road in the postseason than they did during the season.

On the road, I find these stats to be more disturbing than anything that is happening with the offense.

So, why isn't anyone calling out coach Thibodeau for this teams's lack of defense on the road this postseason?

Why?

Anyone?



Because he is in charge of the scheme.  And the scheme works.


The problem on the road with the defense isn't that the scheme changes, it is that the same effort and energy isn't there. 


Doc gets knocked more for his offense because he is also the head coach. 
Somehow I knew the actual stats would be ignored and that this would somehow get back to Doc.

First off you are wrong, this is not Thibodeau's scheme. this scheme was used last year but ran horribly do to lack of talent, basketball understanding and coaching. This is Doc's scheme that Thibodeau coaches. Here's proof. Danny Ainge on the Big Show explains. Start listening with 11:30 in already. Danny states emphatically that this is Doc's scheme and that Coach T coaches it up:

http://audio.weei.com/m/18827930/danny_ainge.htm?col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&q=big+show&match=QUERY&seek=160.029

I think Ainge would know what his coach is doing.

Second, since Ainge states that it is Coach Thibodeau's job to teach and coach up subtleties the defense, why is he allowing a lack of effort from the players?

All year people on this site have been giving the credit for this defense to Tom Thibodeau. So why I ask are people going to blame Doc when the defense starts to crumble?

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2008, 12:14:50 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Why is everyone talking about the offense when clearly the problem on the road has been the defense. This team is averaging giving up 75.5 points per game at home and 100 points per game on the road.

Wednesday was the only game this postseason that the Celtics held an opponent under 97 points in a game on the road. And even then if the could have just come up with some stops in the third and fourth quarters, the game was in reach.

Yes, the offense has looked bad on the road, but this team's offense has always flowed better when the defense is making stops. I couldn't find what the Celtics seasonal per game stat was for fast break points but they've only had 43 fast break points in 5 games on the road.

They are averaging 2.29 less steals per game on the road in the playoffs than they did during the season. They are averaging 1.02 less blocks on the road this postseason than they did during the regular season. They are averaging 8 less defensive rebounds per game on the road in the postseason than they did during the season.

On the road, I find these stats to be more disturbing than anything that is happening with the offense.

So, why isn't anyone calling out coach Thibodeau for this teams's lack of defense on the road this postseason?

Why?

Anyone?



Because he is in charge of the scheme.  And the scheme works.


The problem on the road with the defense isn't that the scheme changes, it is that the same effort and energy isn't there. 


Doc gets knocked more for his offense because he is also the head coach. 
Somehow I knew the actual stats would be ignored and that this would somehow get back to Doc.

First off you are wrong, this is not Thibodeau's scheme. this scheme was used last year but ran horribly do to lack of talent, basketball understanding and coaching. This is Doc's scheme that Thibodeau coaches. Here's proof. Danny Ainge on the Big Show explains. Start listening with 11:30 in already. Danny states emphatically that this is Doc's scheme and that Coach T coaches it up:

http://audio.weei.com/m/18827930/danny_ainge.htm?col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&q=big+show&match=QUERY&seek=160.029

I think Ainge would know what his coach is doing.

Second, since Ainge states that it is Coach Thibodeau's job to teach and coach up subtleties the defense, why is he allowing a lack of effort from the players?

All year people on this site have been giving the credit for this defense to Tom Thibodeau. So why I ask are people going to blame Doc when the defense starts to crumble?

Sure.  I believe Ainge about this. 


Doesn't JVG talk about the scheme being Thibodeau's?  Something JVG would know since it was his assistant. 



I blame doc when the team falls apart on every road game in the playoff.  He is the head coach.  His job to get his team ready to play every night, not just at home. 

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2008, 12:28:13 PM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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Anything but a finals appearance would be a huge disappointment. I think if this Celtics team does not reach the finals, Rivers should be fired. I would largely be in favor of Danny ainge to stepping down to coach the team. Think back to Pat Riely firing Van Gundy. Danny on the court may be the best thing for this team. However, I doubt Danny would do it. But my opinion will still stand, that if the C"s don"t reach finals, a new coach needs to be here next year.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2008, 12:30:12 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I don't understand why Van Gundy is a more credible source than Danny Ainge.

Especially since I watched last year and saw the same blitzing on the high pick and roll, the same interior help defensive rotation and the same perimeter rotation that ends with the inside man being responsible for the far side swing defense. Thibodeau wasn't here last year.

Regarding blaming Doc for the road losses, I can't argue with you there. It is ultimately his job to prepare the players and give them the best opportunity to win.

But the players, IMO, are a lot more responsible for the five losses than any coach is. Their effort has been abysmal and sometimes all the best coaching in the world can't and won't get players to play hard, focused, and intense basketball.

When I here a coach on a mike screaming for his team to take it to the hole and to a player no one does, that's on the players. And it's not like Doc is about to bench KG, PP, RA, Posey and Rondo. They were the culprits and I just don't see where taking them out of a game to make a point by putting in a team of Powe, BBD, Brown, Cassell, and Allen is going to help this team.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2008, 12:46:38 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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I don't understand why Van Gundy is a more credible source than Danny Ainge.

Especially since I watched last year and saw the same blitzing on the high pick and roll, the same interior help defensive rotation and the same perimeter rotation that ends with the inside man being responsible for the far side swing defense. Thibodeau wasn't here last year.

Regarding blaming Doc for the road losses, I can't argue with you there. It is ultimately his job to prepare the players and give them the best opportunity to win.

But the players, IMO, are a lot more responsible for the five losses than any coach is. Their effort has been abysmal and sometimes all the best coaching in the world can't and won't get players to play hard, focused, and intense basketball.

When I here a coach on a mike screaming for his team to take it to the hole and to a player no one does, that's on the players. And it's not like Doc is about to bench KG, PP, RA, Posey and Rondo. They were the culprits and I just don't see where taking them out of a game to make a point by putting in a team of Powe, BBD, Brown, Cassell, and Allen is going to help this team.

Coach screams for players to take it to the hole, but then continues to run sets that's goal is to get a guy open 18 feet and out (and in most cases, player moving away from the basket to get open), then it is nothing but lip service. 

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2008, 01:10:02 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Doc says attack, then sits Rondo for most the 4th quarter thus playing with a slower, jumpshooting team. 


It is lip service. 

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2008, 01:14:49 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I don't understand why Van Gundy is a more credible source than Danny Ainge.

Especially since I watched last year and saw the same blitzing on the high pick and roll, the same interior help defensive rotation and the same perimeter rotation that ends with the inside man being responsible for the far side swing defense. Thibodeau wasn't here last year.

Regarding blaming Doc for the road losses, I can't argue with you there. It is ultimately his job to prepare the players and give them the best opportunity to win.

But the players, IMO, are a lot more responsible for the five losses than any coach is. Their effort has been abysmal and sometimes all the best coaching in the world can't and won't get players to play hard, focused, and intense basketball.

When I here a coach on a mike screaming for his team to take it to the hole and to a player no one does, that's on the players. And it's not like Doc is about to bench KG, PP, RA, Posey and Rondo. They were the culprits and I just don't see where taking them out of a game to make a point by putting in a team of Powe, BBD, Brown, Cassell, and Allen is going to help this team.

Coach screams for players to take it to the hole, but then continues to run sets that's goal is to get a guy open 18 feet and out (and in most cases, player moving away from the basket to get open), then it is nothing but lip service. 
Come on, you do not know that that was what was happening any more than I do that Doc could have been running sets that has a player get open from 18 feet so he could then drive to the basket.

But what is known is that Doc was screaming at the players to drive and they didn't.

I refuse, absolutely refuse, to believe a coach would be screaming, not whispering, not telling nicely, but screaming at his players to drive to the basket and then run plays that were designed to get a player an open 18 footer. Doc is a lot of things, but on a personal level, he is far from stupid and that's basically what you want me to believe.

wd, stop and think it through(and I mean that in the nicest most respectful way I can  :)). That makes no sense.

It was said that KC Jones basically did nothing and just through the ball out on the court and told Larry and crew to just go play ball because they were such a veteran group. Larry has even admitted that on many occasions the players ignored KC and ran what Larry told them to run.

Why is it that we cannot believe that this veteran group doesn't listen to good, smart coaching telling them to take it inside and at a LeBron with 3 fouls and just decided they were going to do what they wanted? Why is that so hard to believe?

There's some big egos on that team and that includes Rondo. Players don't always do what they are coached to do and I believe that that is what is happening on the road.

But it's okay if we agree to disagree. I do think your points about it being Doc's ultimate responsibility are right as well as some very bad substitutions and proper use of personel.

But I think the players need to step up their game because I believe while Doc may ultimately pay the price for what is occuring on the road because it is his responsibility to see that the players play, it has been the players failures that have been the main reason behind the playoff performances on the road.

I just don't see where a better coach would have fared much different given the way the players played.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2008, 01:25:44 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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I don't understand why Van Gundy is a more credible source than Danny Ainge.

Especially since I watched last year and saw the same blitzing on the high pick and roll, the same interior help defensive rotation and the same perimeter rotation that ends with the inside man being responsible for the far side swing defense. Thibodeau wasn't here last year.

Regarding blaming Doc for the road losses, I can't argue with you there. It is ultimately his job to prepare the players and give them the best opportunity to win.

But the players, IMO, are a lot more responsible for the five losses than any coach is. Their effort has been abysmal and sometimes all the best coaching in the world can't and won't get players to play hard, focused, and intense basketball.

When I here a coach on a mike screaming for his team to take it to the hole and to a player no one does, that's on the players. And it's not like Doc is about to bench KG, PP, RA, Posey and Rondo. They were the culprits and I just don't see where taking them out of a game to make a point by putting in a team of Powe, BBD, Brown, Cassell, and Allen is going to help this team.

Coach screams for players to take it to the hole, but then continues to run sets that's goal is to get a guy open 18 feet and out (and in most cases, player moving away from the basket to get open), then it is nothing but lip service. 
Come on, you do not know that that was what was happening any more than I do that Doc could have been running sets that has a player get open from 18 feet so he could then drive to the basket.

But what is known is that Doc was screaming at the players to drive and they didn't.

I refuse, absolutely refuse, to believe a coach would be screaming, not whispering, not telling nicely, but screaming at his players to drive to the basket and then run plays that were designed to get a player an open 18 footer. Doc is a lot of things, but on a personal level, he is far from stupid and that's basically what you want me to believe.

wd, stop and think it through(and I mean that in the nicest most respectful way I can  :)). That makes no sense.

It was said that KC Jones basically did nothing and just through the ball out on the court and told Larry and crew to just go play ball because they were such a veteran group. Larry has even admitted that on many occasions the players ignored KC and ran what Larry told them to run.

Why is it that we cannot believe that this veteran group doesn't listen to good, smart coaching telling them to take it inside and at a LeBron with 3 fouls and just decided they were going to do what they wanted? Why is that so hard to believe?

There's some big egos on that team and that includes Rondo. Players don't always do what they are coached to do and I believe that that is what is happening on the road.

But it's okay if we agree to disagree. I do think your points about it being Doc's ultimate responsibility are right as well as some very bad substitutions and proper use of personel.

But I think the players need to step up their game because I believe while Doc may ultimately pay the price for what is occuring on the road because it is his responsibility to see that the players play, it has been the players failures that have been the main reason behind the playoff performances on the road.

I just don't see where a better coach would have fared much different given the way the players played.


I agree it makes no sense.  But that's what is happening on the floor.


Where were the plays design to get a guy open heading towards the basket? 


A different coach would have had the team playing it's best ball going into the playoffs, not during the mid season. 



Simple put, Doc is telling them to attack, but not putting the team in the best position to attack. 

Jumpshooting PG (Cassell) instead of a fast pace pushing PG (Rondo)

Jumpshooting big men (Brown and Davis) instead of big man that attacks the rim (Powe)

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2008, 01:30:59 PM »

Offline teddykgb

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Why would we want a big man who attacks the rim? Why hasn't Rondo pushed the ball at all to this point?

PJ Brown kept us in the game.  Cleveland is largely playing us defensively as we're playing them: they're crowding the middle, doubling Garnett, and forcing us to beat them with outside shooting, which we're not doing on the road. 

I do think it is Doc's fault, though, he's not adapting our offense correctly to the personnel and matchups.  Ray Allen HAS to have a huge series, and we're still running pick and roll plays and swing plays around the screens to try to get him going, when the one thing he's demonstrated all year is that he can't run either with any serious effectiveness, especially the pick and roll.  I'm not big into criticizing effort, I don't think effort has cost us any games in this series, to be honest, the difference has largely been shot making ability, which is to say the role players on Cleveland have made more shots in more games, and that doesn't have a whole lot to do with effort, it has more to do with guys stepping up and mathmatical percentages.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2008, 01:31:18 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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.... and its Doc fault that he loses with Orlando, even though he never had a higher seed (thus no home court advantage) but he gets no credit for beating a young hungry dangerous Atlanta team.  Hmmmm... double standards are fun

I know this wasn't directed at me (since I haven't been in that thread) but as an anti-Doc poster, I feel compelled to comment. First, there's no comparison there, and certainly no double standard. In one case, his 42-win team had a 3-1 lead over a 50-win team but couldn't get his team to win 1 of 3. Yes it was a 1 v. 8, but there wasn't much difference between the teams. In the other case, he allowed a terrible 37-45 team to take his ridiculously superior 66-16 team to 7 games.

Second, I don't care what Doc did in Orlando results-wise, (in fact, I've defended T-Mac over the very same series you're talking about), but no, I don't give him credit for beating a sub-.500 Atlanta team that can't play defense or a set offense. I give him some share of responsibility for letting a team that bad take us to 7.

Why is everyone talking about the offense when clearly the problem on the road has been the defense. This team is averaging giving up 75.5 points per game at home and 100 points per game on the road.

Wednesday was the only game this postseason that the Celtics held an opponent under 97 points in a game on the road. And even then if the could have just come up with some stops in the third and fourth quarters, the game was in reach.

Yes, the offense has looked bad on the road, but this team's offense has always flowed better when the defense is making stops. I couldn't find what the Celtics seasonal per game stat was for fast break points but they've only had 43 fast break points in 5 games on the road.

I couldn't disagree more with this. I think our D has been very good in Cleveland with the exception of the first quarter of Game 3, when the Cavs simply made every shot imaginable. In every game, we have sought to pressure Lebron and let the other guys kill us - in the first quarter of Game 3, it happened, they killed us. Other than that, we've been doing an excellent job defensively especially considering we're going against the best offensive player in the NBA. We are giving the Cavs the shots we want them to take, they just hit a few more. (And I've said before, I think the biggest problem in Atlanta was that our offense was turning the ball over and bricking shots allowing Atlanta to increase the tempo, and a transition game naturally results in more points and higher field goal percentages. We didn't play good defense, but it was our inability to control tempo that prevented us from doing anything.)  

As for the 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 4, maybe we could have come up with some stops? On the Cavs' first 11 possessions of the 4th quarter, covering the first 6+ minutes, we forced them to take 8 shots from outside 20 feet. They made one of those, a 3 by Gibson. We let Boobie get a 9 foot shot, we sent Lebron to the line once (where he went 1 of 2) and Joe Smith hit a shot. Other than that, the D was superb.

Our problem in that stretch was that we didn't take advantage at the offensive end and did the same thing, settling for outside shots repeatedly. Not surprising since we had Big Baby and PJ Brown, who aren't gonna give you post offense, at the 4 and 5, Posey, who is not gonna take it to the basket (no offense at all to Posey who has been our best or second best player in this series and maybe our most consistent player in the playoffs - yet is only playing 23 minutes per game), and Pierce and Cassell settling for jump shots. I'll give some credit to Sam, in the first 6 minutes of the 4th, he's the only one who took it to the lane at all, drawing a foul and hitting his two free throws, but I've said elsewhere when his shot isn't going, he can't be on the court.

So, when we held them to 8 points in the first 6 minutes of the 4th, it was our offense that didn't capitalize, also scoring only 8 (thanks to PJ Brown, who hit two 18 footers). So, our offense didn't play better when we were making stops - it played significantly worse. The next two defensive possessions, we stopped layup attempts by Gibson and Lebron, but still did nothing on the offensive end - that's what was killing us. Then we allow Joe Smith to take a 19 footer - which is what we want, but we let Lebron get the offensive board, fortunately he bricked another 3 - we were still forcing them to take the shots we wanted them to take and they for the most part weren't making them. But between the 9 minute mark and 3 minute mark of the 4th we scored 4 points. That was our problem.

We were forcing them to take shots we wanted, it was going to catch up with us at some point when we couldn't do anything offensively. It did when Lebron and Boobie hit back to back 3s to extend the lead to 7. Then Lebron got his monster dunk, but still we gave no response. And if we're in a close game, I'm fine with us letting Anderson Varejao take 11 and 19 foot jumpers down the stretch. He happened to hit both, but the defense was fine. It was the offense that choked, scoring a grand total of 12 points in the 4th quarter, whether we were making stops or not.

How people can continue to act like it's the defense is beyond me. We couldn't score in the 4th because defenses clamp down and we have no offensive sets to beat that. Our offense is isolation. That's why we lost.

And I'll admit, we could have made more stops in the 3rd but hey, they were hitting outside shots. We, on the other hand, had a stretch where in six possessions early in the 3rd quarter, Pierce and Allen missed easy layups (there's been a lot of missed layups to defensive pressure and well-officiated contact, but these two were just misses), and Rondo and Perk each missed a pair of free throws. We could have taken control of the game at that point but didn't because our offense didn't execute. And for the most part, even though we made fewer stops in the 3rd than in the 4th, our offense performed worse in the 4th.

Well, the point is that you don't stick in a cold BBD at the beginning of the 4th quarter.  I would have been fine using BBD and Powe all along, not PJ Brown.  (Brown had a decent game yesterday, but otherwise he has been a total non-factor.)With young players, you have to give them minutes in the first half if you want them to be successful in the second half.  Having said that, BBD isn't the reason they lost the game.

There are two main reasons why they lost the game:

(1) Cassell stinks at both ends of the floor.  If they had been using Eddie House and Tony Allen, they would be up 3-1 in this series. For every basket Cassell scores, he gives up two.  He can't guard West, he can't guard Gibson.

(2) Rivers has been unable to make the offensive adjustments to free up Ray Allen and KG to score the basketball.

KG had two points in the second half.  For starters, they need to push the ball, which is something they will never do when Cassell is in the game.  The game is being played at Cleveland's tempo.

The coach is never entirely to blame.  But Rivers is a mediocre coach at best, and the proof is in the pudding.


Brick, I'm 50-50 with you on the first part. Putting BBD in there was ridiculous. But Brown played very well Monday, he deserved his minutes, maybe he got too many, but Brown being out there wasn't the problem, Davis and Cassell (and KG being on the bench for the first 4 1/2 minutes of the 4th) was.

On your two points for why they lost the game, again, I'm 50-50. Cassell played bad, and shouldn't have been on the court to start the 4th - it wasn't going for him in the second or third, don't have him trying to work out his shot in the 4th. That said, your 3-1 statement is off base. Cassell was an enormous factor in us winning Games 1 and 2, dropping 10 in the 4th quarter of Game 1 and leading the second unit to take control of Game 2 in the 2nd quarter. Without him in there, we probably drop one of those games, so even if you don't put him in in Game 4, we're still probably 2-2.

And I agree wholeheartedly on the poor offense, inability free up KG and Allen and overall mediocrity of Doc.

I am anti-Doc. I think he's a nice guy who can be fine in the regular season, but subpar to mediocre coaches get destroyed in the playoffs routinely. I just hope it doesn't happen to us. He can't do anything about offense at this point - it's too late to start drawing up plays now, but hopefully he can adjust his rotations and start making sense of the game (i.e., play Posey 30+ minutes, don't rest 2 of our 3 offensive weapons at the same time, especially in the 4th, don't experiment with unused players in the 4th, don't play Cassell when his shot's not falling and he's disrupting the already poor offense, don't yank guys around for no reason, etc.). If he can do that, we'll win this series. If he doesn't, I just don't know. I love our homecourt advantage, but I don't want to keep relying on it.  

Doc says attack, then sits Rondo for most the 4th quarter thus playing with a slower, jumpshooting team. 


It is lip service. 

Agree 100%.
Go Celtics.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2008, 01:32:51 PM »

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I don't understand why Van Gundy is a more credible source than Danny Ainge.

Especially since I watched last year and saw the same blitzing on the high pick and roll, the same interior help defensive rotation and the same perimeter rotation that ends with the inside man being responsible for the far side swing defense. Thibodeau wasn't here last year.

Regarding blaming Doc for the road losses, I can't argue with you there. It is ultimately his job to prepare the players and give them the best opportunity to win.

But the players, IMO, are a lot more responsible for the five losses than any coach is. Their effort has been abysmal and sometimes all the best coaching in the world can't and won't get players to play hard, focused, and intense basketball.

When I here a coach on a mike screaming for his team to take it to the hole and to a player no one does, that's on the players. And it's not like Doc is about to bench KG, PP, RA, Posey and Rondo. They were the culprits and I just don't see where taking them out of a game to make a point by putting in a team of Powe, BBD, Brown, Cassell, and Allen is going to help this team.

Coach screams for players to take it to the hole, but then continues to run sets that's goal is to get a guy open 18 feet and out (and in most cases, player moving away from the basket to get open), then it is nothing but lip service. 
Come on, you do not know that that was what was happening any more than I do that Doc could have been running sets that has a player get open from 18 feet so he could then drive to the basket.

But what is known is that Doc was screaming at the players to drive and they didn't.

I refuse, absolutely refuse, to believe a coach would be screaming, not whispering, not telling nicely, but screaming at his players to drive to the basket and then run plays that were designed to get a player an open 18 footer. Doc is a lot of things, but on a personal level, he is far from stupid and that's basically what you want me to believe.

wd, stop and think it through(and I mean that in the nicest most respectful way I can  :)). That makes no sense.

It was said that KC Jones basically did nothing and just through the ball out on the court and told Larry and crew to just go play ball because they were such a veteran group. Larry has even admitted that on many occasions the players ignored KC and ran what Larry told them to run.

Why is it that we cannot believe that this veteran group doesn't listen to good, smart coaching telling them to take it inside and at a LeBron with 3 fouls and just decided they were going to do what they wanted? Why is that so hard to believe?

There's some big egos on that team and that includes Rondo. Players don't always do what they are coached to do and I believe that that is what is happening on the road.

But it's okay if we agree to disagree. I do think your points about it being Doc's ultimate responsibility are right as well as some very bad substitutions and proper use of personel.

But I think the players need to step up their game because I believe while Doc may ultimately pay the price for what is occuring on the road because it is his responsibility to see that the players play, it has been the players failures that have been the main reason behind the playoff performances on the road.

I just don't see where a better coach would have fared much different given the way the players played.


I agree it makes no sense.  But that's what is happening on the floor.


Where were the plays design to get a guy open heading towards the basket? 


A different coach would have had the team playing it's best ball going into the playoffs, not during the mid season. 



Simple put, Doc is telling them to attack, but not putting the team in the best position to attack. 

Jumpshooting PG (Cassell) instead of a fast pace pushing PG (Rondo)

Jumpshooting big men (Brown and Davis) instead of big man that attacks the rim (Powe)

Why are you talking about the fourth quarter? I thought it was the third when Doc told them to attack the rim. I thought it was the third when they got into the penalty with lot of time on the clock. I thought it was the third when LeBron was in foul trouble.

Am I wrong? Was is the fourth when he told them to attack Cleveland? I was sure it was the third.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2008, 01:43:50 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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I agree it makes no sense.  But that's what is happening on the floor.


Where were the plays design to get a guy open heading towards the basket? 


A different coach would have had the team playing it's best ball going into the playoffs, not during the mid season. 



Simple put, Doc is telling them to attack, but not putting the team in the best position to attack. 

Jumpshooting PG (Cassell) instead of a fast pace pushing PG (Rondo)

Jumpshooting big men (Brown and Davis) instead of big man that attacks the rim (Powe)

Why are you talking about the fourth quarter? I thought it was the third when Doc told them to attack the rim. I thought it was the third when they got into the penalty with lot of time on the clock. I thought it was the third when LeBron was in foul trouble.

Am I wrong? Was is the fourth when he told them to attack Cleveland? I was sure it was the third.


Yes, he said it in the third.

And what did he do to facilitate it?  Did he have players moving towards the basket or away and across the basket?

Or did he have them continue to run the same sets that get them open on the outside for jumpshots? 


And if he is so into the attacking in the third, why not continue that want going into the 4th?