Author Topic: Is it really Doc's fault?  (Read 46102 times)

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Is it really Doc's fault?
« on: May 13, 2008, 03:52:40 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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One way or another the coach is responsible for making the team click physchologically. He has to inspire the players to do the right things. Players are like kids that have to be constantly reigned in and corralled, even at the professional level. Ever seen Phil Jackson go "off" on a player for a simple mistake or for taking a bad shot? For taking one bad shot? Right, the answer is yes.

The coach's job is to make the players accomplish more than even they think they are capable of.

I will make this statement:

I beleive if this team was coached by either Phil Jackson or Popovich we'd have won the Atlanta series 4-0 or 4-1 worst and we'd be going back home for game 5 up 3-1.

Doc's coachign rotations and lack of ability to amke in game adjustments is deplorable. The players make mistakes but not as many as Doc.

For example, the fact that "perhaps" many players "missed" defensive assignments when Joe Johnson scored what seemed like 8 straight times on the same play in game 3 or 4, is rendered completely and utterly insignificant to me when the coach chooses to put Ray Allen ( our worst perimeter defender ) on a guy that is red hot down the stretch in the fourth when Pierce, Posey and TAllen are available.

In this scenario, it doens't matter much that "perhps" people missed some defensive assignments. You were screwed from the start when your coach is putting your worst defender on the hottest guy on the team...

This is one example of many where Doc is putting the players in a bad position by his coaching.

Do you think Popovich would put Brent Barry on Joe Johnson when Bowen was available? Or that Jackson would put Vujacic on JJ when Kobe is available? 

The players are making mistakes but the coach is supposed to "coach" them into doing the right thing all game, every game and he is supposed to put them in the best possible situation to win at all times. Is Doc doing that?   

Also, how can you expect Big Baby be up to speed when he hasn't played hardly a meaningful minute in three weeks when you put him inot the middle of an intense game four? Moronic.

But now that Big baby's confidence took a hit and assuming we get past Cleveland I am sure he'll be good and ready for Maxiell. Because trust me when I tell you, Big baby is the only person on our team who neutralises maxiell from throwing us all over the place. Maybe it would therefore be good to have some foresight and keep Baby fresh, knowing he'll be critcal in the conference finals against your opponent's thug. Maybe you could try and get him good minutes thrhoughout the playoffs so he'll be mentally ready rather than looking like a deer in the headlights?

Or how about keeping TAllen fresh so he can chase Rip around for 10-15 minutes a night when that becomes necessary. Or whould we just play 33 year old Ray Allen 40+ minutes a night over 14 games and then expect him to chase rip all over Kingdom come on defense, drop 20 a night on offense and then be ready for man or Kobe in the finals...

Think maybe Eddie House could be useful when we need points. Maybe if he's on in just one of these games he could make the difference in one game, amke the Atlanta series a 6 game affair or perhps have lit up Clevleand in the fourth when we couldn't score? That's why you keep him fresh Doc! That's why you keep him involved, get him some burn here and there..so he is ready.

YOU CANNOT STICK THESE GUYS IN WHEN THEY HAVENT' PLAYED ANY SIGNIFICANT MINUTES FOR 3-4 WKS AND EXPECT THEM TO CONTRIBUTE!

YOU CANNOT CHANGE YOUR ENTIRE ROTATION 2 WKS BEFORE THE PLAYOFFS AND EXPECT TO GO ON A ROLL!

YOU CANNOT "ICE" GUYS WHO HAVE CONTIRBUTED ALL SEASON FOR YOU AND EXPECT THEM TO "BE HAPPY"!

Play Sam, yes. but give Eddie Burn.

Play Powe, yes, But have big Baby come in for 5-10 minutes a night and clock Horford or Varejo or Joe Smith!

Is it really Doc's fault? Uh, yes. emphatically. It doesn't matter that the players don't listen sometimes and don't do what their told. THAT'S WHEN YOU SEE JACKSON OR POPOVICH GOING "OFF" ON SOMEONE FOR NOT MAKEING ONE SINGLE PLAY CORRECTLY. IT HAS A TENDENCY TO GET THEM "FOCUSED".

Ok, that felt good. I still think we win this series and can probably win the Detorit series but it has been entirely more difficult than necessary due to Doc's inability to inspire, motivate and if necessary, dicsipline and harangue his palyers inot performing at their peak.

Bottom line   

Pls, yes, the players are not making some of the plays they need to and maybe are wilting under the pressure of enormous expectations place on them in their first go around in the playoffs together, but that's exactly what a coach is for.   

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2008, 03:59:57 PM »

Offline acl rupture

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Yup.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2008, 04:00:35 PM »

Offline TBreezy

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doc has never been someone who can manage a rotation.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2008, 04:11:49 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Norman Dale for coach!

;)

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

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Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2008, 04:16:02 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Norman Dale for coach!

;)


How about the caveman?  His series got canceled (thank god) and his new commercials are terrible.  He has time. 

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2008, 04:22:25 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Who is Norman Dale?

look, I actually like Doc, alot. I think he's a great guy for the organisation, he's great with the media and I think he's a great character guy. I think he should be in public relations. He's very likeable and I do like him.

I just hink he blows as a coach who can get players to achieve more than they know they can and who can amke decisive in game rotations and adjustments. I just don't see it.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2008, 04:29:42 PM »

Offline Mr October

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The team needs to exploit mismatches more often. Doc doesn't seam to be into doing that..... i have no idea why. Lets run Ray/Wally through some screens. How about pick and rolls with Ray & KG.

Most of the time I'm cool with Doc's decisions, approach though. If the Celtics blow this series, Doc should be gone. My "Doc is OK" requirement still stands at a strong Eastern Finals appearance.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2008, 04:33:09 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Fair enough Mr. October. I can see that poit of view.

We do tend to forget these guys are playing their first playoffs together, which has it's challenges in and of itself.

The most frustrating thing to me is they seem to be losing games they should easily bag...

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2008, 04:51:51 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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It's fair to say that Doc is to share in some of the blame. But if these guys make of few shots instead of taking horrible attempts in the 4th when we held them to no points for the start of the quarter, then we are not having this discussion about rotataions. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to defend him, but they are not playing smart down the stretch in these road games. You can point and say that he should have done this or that, but I doubt yelling at them at that point in time is going to matter. When it comes down to it, common sense needes to come into play when they are on the floor and not settle for these stupid shot attempts. PP taking wild threes, Allen palying hide and seek with the game is what is killing them more than the short commings of Doc's coacing
Still don't believe in Joe.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2008, 04:57:06 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2008, 05:06:19 PM »

Online Who

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ScoobyDoo,

So basically you want everybody to play? You want Sam to play. Eddie to play. TA to play. Glen Davis to play. I'm presuming you don't want Posey or Powe benched. You want everybody to play ......

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2008, 05:09:18 PM »

Offline chrismcc13

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Completely agree.  Considering Tom Thibs is completely controlling the defensive agenda, don't you think Doc would have some semblance of an idea what to do with three perennial all stars on offense?  Some say it is the players fault, and I agree to an extent, they should not be taking wild shots in the 4th, but, if Doc set up Ray for more open looks, or did more pick and rolls with KG and Ray (which worked all season)all game long, then maybe we wouldn't need to be so nervous in the 4th, taking hero shots.
Can you imagine where the Lakers would be if Doc was there coach?  Would they even be contenders?  It's very uncomforting to hear that our chemistry is corroding, and blame is subtly being thrown around between players and coaches.  Doc does bring a lot to the table, he got our guys to buy into a team concept in the beginning of the year.  But in terms of offensive sets and subsitutions/rotations, he is absolutely laughable.  I really hope Tom Thibs stays next year (and Posey), but for gods sake we need some one who can coach an offense.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2008, 05:30:13 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Being the Doc supporter that I am I could go into a long explanation why he isn't nearly as responsible for the 5 losses in the postseason as people, like yourselves, are giving him. But I've said it all before and most of you will just not budge an inch in your blame game at Doc. But why not, here I go again.

Here's a fact. Doc bears responsibility for what has transpired in the playoffs.

Here's another fact. The players bear responsibility for what has transpired in the playoffs.

How much blame for 5 playoff losses belongs to whom is the debateable part.

I happen to believe that Doc isn't nearly as responsible for this teams successes or disappointments that have occured this postseason as most who will probably post in this thread think. He should have used the end of the year to get a playoff rotation set. He could have handled the benching of Eddie, Tony and Big Baby better than he did. There have been some very, very strange substitutions that have occured during the playoffs. All this I give you.

But this group of players have severely underachieved thus far in the postseason. A lack of focus, a lack of motivation, a lack of effort and a lack of listening to your coaches are problems that have been and are occuring that has nothing to do with Doc and everything to do with the players. The problems I mentioned are problems that are 100% player related and, as far as I am concerned, have contributed a lot more to the Celtics playoff woes than any 3 minute substitution has.

In last night's game thread, or was it the game before's, wdleehi and I discussed who is responsible for proper player motivation in the playoffs. He tended to say that if the player isn't motivated then it is ultimately the job of the coach to motivate him(correct me if I'm wrong, wd). I stand on the side that if a professional athlete can't get motivated to play his best in a playoff game then ultimately there is little the coach can do. The first, last, and only person responsible for making sure a player is motivated to play is the player, IMHO.

And in many long, long stretches on the road the Celtics have looked lethargic and unmotivated. Many, many of them have. Doc cannot bench the whole team, that is just not an option.

So it falls on the players to man up and give the effort, mentally, physically, and emotionally that is required for playoff success. And honestly, to a man, I have not seen that.

So for that reason, although Doc hasn't exactly been the second coming of Red Auerbach, the players should bear the brunt of the responsibility for their performances thus far. I just refuse to believe that if Doc had made every change, every substitution, every adjustment that this team's record would be all that different than what it currently is. People are screaming for adjustment and there have been a ton mentioned, many that contradict each other(See "Doc should have a 8-9 man rotation and then in the same breath that same person is asking why BBD, Eddie House, TAllen, and Scal aren't being used. There are quite a bit more just as contradictory).

Doc doesn't miss free throws.
Doc doesn't turn the ball over.
Doc isn't the player that isn't listening to good coaching.
Doc aren't the players that are averaging 4.5 points less than their season averages.
Doc isn't shooting 26% from the three point line in this series.
Doc isn't shooting only 40% from the field in this series.
Doc isn't allowing everyone other than LeBron to shoot 47% from the field.
Doc isn't allowing everyone other than LeBron to shoot 38% from the three point line.
Doc wasn't responsible for the horribly one sided officiating in the Atlanta series that led to an obscene 68 free throws attempted discrepency.

As I said, although I am a Doc supporter I see what the Doc detractors see as well. And I agree that they have hurt the team. But I just don't think he has hurt this team this postseason nearly as much as the players and their performances have.

Being a Doc detractor, can you say that you can see any of what the Doc supporters see without claiming the only reason for what the players are doing is because of Doc's coaching? I'd be interested in knowing what you have to say.

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2008, 05:33:14 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Who is Norman Dale?

This guy:








I'm not trying to call the poster out or be disrespectful because maybe he's not a movie fan or just never saw Hoosiers, but what basketball movie loving fan doesn't know who Norman Dale is?

Re: Is it really Doc's fault?
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2008, 06:12:35 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Hi who. Well, yes. I actually do think a coach should have the capacity to play a deep roster if and when he is handed one, which Doc has been handed. I am not saying that you could probably play every player on every night.

My argument is this:

1. When Sam Cassell is stinking it up in the Atlanta series on occasion, pull him and use Eddie, he might have something left in the tank.

2. When Horford is mauling Garnett, put Big Baby in for 5-10 minutes and let him kick the crap out of him, let him get 3 fouls in 10 minutes. It'll wear Horford down a little.

3. When We are having trouble athletically, use your athletic guy---TAllen, to chase Joe Johnson around for a while or Wally Szerbiak.

4. What about the ultra hustle and wack em smack combo of Powe and Big Baby that was so effective during the season, espeically when we were getting "outhustled" in certain games.

5. How about trying a back court combo of Sam Cassell for some shooting and Tallen for some good Denial D. If Sams' not on, try Eddie.

So yes, I do think you can play alot more players than Doc is playing. Someone else mentioned that Doc was always great at putting in the right situation player during the season at the right time. What happened? Big baby played some of the best defense any Cletic played all year on Zadrunas...

More concerning to me over all though is that if you have a deep team where many players may be important at any given time ( say Big baby on maxiell if we get past Cleveland ) you have to play them to keep them involved, keep them fresh. How do you think Big Baby will do against Maxiell if he hasn't seen the floor in 14 games?

All I am saying is there has been plenty of opportunities to play these guys and get benefits from it and make sure they are ready when it really matters. Big baby in the 4th of an ultra intense game 4 after 11 games of Zero minutes? Are you kidding me? Can he at least get 5 mintes in the first half to get his sneakers on?

Ray Allen on Joe Johnson with Pierce Posey and TAllen watching. Would you put Brent barry or Sasha Vujacic on the hottest guy in the arena when you have Bruce Bowen and kobe Bryant chomping at the bit to have Joe Johnson for lunch?

If you have a deep team, use it, judiciously. Or should we expect TAllen, EHouse and BBaby to be up to speed in game three of the finals after not playing for over a month?

We have the depth it should be used. TAllen for Ray Allen 10 minutes a night might do wonders for Allen's non-existent jump shot.

Nickagenta, I do agree that players at this level should be self motivated and should take the correct shots and should be self focused and give their best effort and they should listened.

But just like a great teacher in college or a great coach you had over the eyars in sports, havent' you had one teacher or coach who for wome reason could slap you out of your malaise with greater force or who could isnpire you to push yourself a little more with something they said or who could almost fear you into doing the right thing with their tone and/or their anger with you?

A coach or teacher who could reach in their and drag every last thing out of you Vs. others who simply couldn't? It's a rare skill. Jackson and Popvich have it. I am also positive that Auerbach had it.

just because these guys are millionaires and "professinals" doesn't mean they don't need to be knocked on the head now and again. it doesn't mean they don't need to be inspired. Sometimes, when it seems like you have "everything" is when you most need to be inspired to go beyond "everything".

The coach is the patriarch, the ultimate leader. He has to be Patton. he has to be the calm one, the one who instills fear when necessary and the one who is able to inspire when necessary.

When I see a Celtic team in game two come out in the second half in a lackadaisical manner after building a 15 point first half lead and casually let cleveland go on a 7 point run and cut it to 8 points with our stupid mistakes, I don't see a team that is being "driven" and "inspired" by their leader.

To me that's a half time speech where chairs are flying, and the teams' being told they're giving nothing on the floor. A team that wants to win a championship should come out completely p---sed off that the elad is only 15 points. That's on the coach to create that kind of driving killer instinct. The players all have it to a certain extent, the coach needs to maximize it.

Classic re the Norman Dale pics. I love Hoosiers, watched it many times. But like with songs, I hardly ever know the words, just the beat.     

My opinion