Where is the defense on the road? Where is the leadership on the road?

[NYDan]

The person that is supposed to step up and lead this team is the coach.  If the players are have systematic trouble executing in a particular fashion or in a particular part of the game, it generally means one of two things.  First, the players need to be changed.  Second, for whatever reason, whether his fault or not, the coach is having trouble correctly instructing and motivating the players.

It is now four in a row on the road.  You can blame the players all you want, but these are the same players that are great at home.  Now you could argue in response that by the same logic Doc is also a great coach at home.  However, presuming that you are not willing to say these players are not hard workers, etc., etc., it is fundamentally the job of the COACH to motivate the players in difficult situations. 

Doc seems to be a great front-running coach, but he just seems terrible in difficult situations.  But that is just my perception. 

p.s. Is there any data on the Celtics record in close games in the Doc era (yes, I realize Game 3 was not close) compared with other coaches in the same time period?

I cannot agree with this assessment at all. It is the job of the players to now consistently execute the way the coaching staff has prepared them to all season long. They are not simply waiting to hear the right words out of Doc's mouth so they can all of a sudden act like winners in a hostile environment. These aren't a bunch of kids we're talking about, this is a veteran team that has established it's identity and playbook over the course of an extremely successful season. From everything I've seen they are the ones regressing here, not the coaching staff.

I am also extremely tired that Doc is the only one getting bashed specifically when it's our defense that is consistently falling apart for us whenever we leave the garden. Isn't that defensive genius/guru Tom Thibodeau's arena of expertise? Point being is we have an entire coaching staff that prepares the team and makes decisions on different aspects of the game. One cannot simply place blame on Doc Rivers, as convenient as that may be, and personally I put almost all of the blame on the players themselves. Doc didn't put Ray Allen in a slump or give Rondo and Cassell the inability to set up our offense away from home after they've been doing it all year long, or all career long in Cassell's case. Doc didn't give Wally and West the go ahead to have great shooting nights.

You can inspire with words or substitute or call whatever you want as a coach - bottom line is the players need to come to play every trip up and down the court to win on the road in the playoffs. And so far this postseason, our guys have not done that. Time will tell if they can regain that composure.

[libermaniac]

You guys seem to forget the Celtics are playing a decent team that went to the finals last year.  They also are a team with a bunch of streak shooters.  Tonight they were on from the start, and the Celtics dug themselves a big hole.  I'm not saying the Celtics didn't lack energy, but a big factor was also that Cleveland was hitting all their deep shots.  If they weren't red-hot in the first quarter, the C's might have been down 10 or so and battled back. 

I know there's more to it than that - due to 4 straight road losses.  But, nobody said this was going to be easy.  The Celtics can win game 4.  If you don't believe that you shouldn't watch.

[cool breeze]

I guess there's one silver lining about losing all your road games, while winning all your home games. Given that you have home-court advantage, if the trend continues you'll win an NBA Championship eventually! 

[WedmanIsMyHero]

I understand what you are saying, but based on your logic the Celtics poor performance would NEVER be Doc's fault.

Under what circumstances would you blame him, unless you think NBA coaches are just irrelevant?

I think answering that question is important for figuring out what is reasonable to expect of the coach and what is not reasonable.

But no player has come forward.  Now what?   

It seems to me that Doc has to do something--i don't know what but he has to do something.  The complete lack of focus and intensity of this team on the road has happened  too many times.

If the players won't step up then it is over. There is NOTHING that Doc can do if they won't do it themselves. What are you going to do if you are him. Rip them to the media?! Bench the starters?! Neither one of those results in a win. Doc can only do what he is doing. Back his guys and stress the importance of coming out with a certain attitude. If they don't then it is on them. He might get the blame, but it wouldn't be his fault. If you can't get up for the playoffs and the chance to keep moving on, then nothing Doc can say will instill that.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

TP for you!  Exactly right -- systematic losses that have similarities across games are precisely the things you have a coach for.  Because the players see the trees, not the forest, and it is the job of the coach to put it all together.  That is, actually, literally, what the coach is supposed to be doing. . . .now obviously we don't have the inside information to make a determination of whether Doc has done everything possible, but given his generally poor track record as a playoff (and regular season) coach, it is not unreasonable to think he may have *something* to do with this.  And if not, I think it is important to be able to explain a situation in which you *would* blame the coach.

But no player has come forward.  Now what?   

It seems to me that Doc has to do something--i don't know what but he has to do something.  The complete lack of focus and intensity of this team on the road has happened  too many times.

If the players won't step up then it is over. There is NOTHING that Doc can do if they won't do it themselves. What are you going to do if you are him. Rip them to the media?! Bench the starters?! Neither one of those results in a win. Doc can only do what he is doing. Back his guys and stress the importance of coming out with a certain attitude. If they don't then it is on them. He might get the blame, but it wouldn't be his fault. If you can't get up for the playoffs and the chance to keep moving on, then nothing Doc can say will instill that.

The playoff losses on the road have been team collapses, not just one or two key players sucking but a majority.  Everyone is accountable. I can only see and judge the results.   For all I know, Doc may doing the best a coach can do to prepare and motivate his players.  But I cannot assume that when the team (a veteran one at that with three superstars) is collapsing this badly on the road time and time again.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

So then under what conditions *would* you blame the coach?  When you have systematic, across the board collapses that span several games?  Nope, that's on the players.

It seems to me that when the going gets tough, that is when the coach earns his money.  Would you disagree with that assessment?

EDIT: Agreed on the assistant coach issue as well, no reason they should escape blame.

The person that is supposed to step up and lead this team is the coach.  If the players are have systematic trouble executing in a particular fashion or in a particular part of the game, it generally means one of two things.  First, the players need to be changed.  Second, for whatever reason, whether his fault or not, the coach is having trouble correctly instructing and motivating the players.

It is now four in a row on the road.  You can blame the players all you want, but these are the same players that are great at home.  Now you could argue in response that by the same logic Doc is also a great coach at home.  However, presuming that you are not willing to say these players are not hard workers, etc., etc., it is fundamentally the job of the COACH to motivate the players in difficult situations. 

Doc seems to be a great front-running coach, but he just seems terrible in difficult situations.  But that is just my perception. 

p.s. Is there any data on the Celtics record in close games in the Doc era (yes, I realize Game 3 was not close) compared with other coaches in the same time period?

I cannot agree with this assessment at all. It is the job of the players to now consistently execute the way the coaching staff has prepared them to all season long. They are not simply waiting to hear the right words out of Doc's mouth so they can all of a sudden act like winners in a hostile environment. These aren't a bunch of kids we're talking about, this is a veteran team that has established it's identity and playbook over the course of an extremely successful season. From everything I've seen they are the ones regressing here, not the coaching staff.

I am also extremely tired that Doc is the only one getting bashed specifically when it's our defense that is consistently falling apart for us whenever we leave the garden. Isn't that defensive genius/guru Tom Thibodeau's arena of expertise? Point being is we have an entire coaching staff that prepares the team and makes decisions on different aspects of the game. One cannot simply place blame on Doc Rivers, as convenient as that may be, and personally I put almost all of the blame on the players themselves. Doc didn't put Ray Allen in a slump or give Rondo and Cassell the inability to set up our offense away from home after they've been doing it all year long, or all career long in Cassell's case. Doc didn't give Wally and West the go ahead to have great shooting nights.

You can inspire with words or substitute or call whatever you want as a coach - bottom line is the players need to come to play every trip up and down the court to win on the road in the playoffs. And so far this postseason, our guys have not done that. Time will tell if they can regain that composure.

[TerreHaute]

This is on the players. I was taught (as a coach's kid) that you may not shoot the same every night, but you can always play defense. In other words, you can always play hard and do little things even if shots aren't falling.

As a coach myself, I agree that Doc could do some little things to shake things up within the game, but do you really want him to bench the starters for extended periods of time if they don't bring defensive effort? This is playoff basketball. How can you not bring it? Why does Doc have to "teach them a lesson" about intensity in the playoffs? These are mostly veteran players we are talking about.

For this to really mean anything to the players, a player or two has to step up and make everyone know this is unacceptable along with the coach. As a group, they have to hold each other accountable for their play.

On a different note, a coach can tell our point gaurds to pass the ball once in awhile. It should be common sense to Rondo and Sam that Garnett, Allen, and Pierce need to get more shots than them. That didn't happen last night.

[wdleehi]

Coaches.  Players.


It doesn't matter.  Someone needs to step up and lead this team.

[celtics2]

 ???This team is entering dangerous territory. If we become road kill chances are we won't get far in the playoffs. I don't think the Celts have looked that great yet, as much as the opponent has looked bad. This team is out of sync. Rondo and the Cassell points are barely fair on the road during our 6-4 record. Allen is a complete no show. Doesn't look like he's going to recover his stroke. We won't win without him. Garnett has to labor to get his post shots off. The bench has hidden some of the starter problems. Our big plus is Wally and West won't be able to keep up last nites game. It's not in them. 

Looks like if we lose 1 home game we're toast.

[NYDan]

So then under what conditions *would* you blame the coach?  When you have systematic, across the board collapses that span several games?  Nope, that's on the players.

It seems to me that when the going gets tough, that is when the coach earns his money.  Would you disagree with that assessment?

EDIT: Agreed on the assistant coach issue as well, no reason they should escape blame.

Yes, I do think the coach makes a big difference when the going gets tough. In close games a great play call or a mismanagement of timeouts can make all the difference, and I was just as upset with the staff's inability to recognize Joe Johnson abusing Ray Allen down the stretch as the Hawks took a game from us we should have won.

But when we lose in blowouts away from home in the fashion we have been I'm more inclined to point the finger at the players. What baffles me with this team is we are missing defensive rotations that we simply don't when playing at home, I can't really blame the plan for not working when it's been proven to work and the players are simply not executing the plan to the best of their abilities. It's not like the Cavs figured us out, they just hit open shots and seemed to want it more from the get go. I'm not sure if its a lack of focus, a lack of respect, a lack of confidence or what.

If we played these games tight I wouldn't be as frustrated, playoff teams are supposed to win at home so a loss isn't the end of the world. But right now we play like the best team in the league at home and we play tentative, unhinged and selfish on the road. This has to be just as maddening for the coaching staff as it is for the fans, it's never been an issue until now. Hopefully game 4 we'll see some sort of leadership emerge, on the court and on the sidelines, and we'll all have plenty less to complain about no matter the outcome.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

That's fair. . I hope Game 4 is different.

So then under what conditions *would* you blame the coach?  When you have systematic, across the board collapses that span several games?  Nope, that's on the players.

It seems to me that when the going gets tough, that is when the coach earns his money.  Would you disagree with that assessment?

EDIT: Agreed on the assistant coach issue as well, no reason they should escape blame.

Yes, I do think the coach makes a big difference when the going gets tough. In close games a great play call or a mismanagement of timeouts can make all the difference, and I was just as upset with the staff's inability to recognize Joe Johnson abusing Ray Allen down the stretch as the Hawks took a game from us we should have won.

But when we lose in blowouts away from home in the fashion we have been I'm more inclined to point the finger at the players. What baffles me with this team is we are missing defensive rotations that we simply don't when playing at home, I can't really blame the plan for not working when it's been proven to work and the players are simply not executing the plan to the best of their abilities. It's not like the Cavs figured us out, they just hit open shots and seemed to want it more from the get go. I'm not sure if its a lack of focus, a lack of respect, a lack of confidence or what.

If we played these games tight I wouldn't be as frustrated, playoff teams are supposed to win at home so a loss isn't the end of the world. But right now we play like the best team in the league at home and we play tentative, unhinged and selfish on the road. This has to be just as maddening for the coaching staff as it is for the fans, it's never been an issue until now. Hopefully game 4 we'll see some sort of leadership emerge, on the court and on the sidelines, and we'll all have plenty less to complain about no matter the outcome.

[BrickJames]

I agree that there are undoubtedly leadership and confidence issues on the road, but the catalyst is the first quarter officiating.

The way the refs are calling the game on the road for us is completely killing our momentum and morale.  I'm not making excuses or crying conspiracy - just stating the facts.  The same story could be said for Brick James in the first two games.  Watch closely - we have been allowed to play far more physically the first 6 home games than the 4 road games.

After some 90 games played together and ostensibly 45 on the road, this team should know how to adjust.  Yes, part of it is coaching, but most of it is the players.

I'm going to call out Pierce, Ray Allen, and to a lesser extent Rondo.  The former two are supposed to be future Hall of Famers - they simply cannot be laying proverbial eggs in the playoffs.

Rondo is somewhat of a different story; second year player, etc.  Furthermore, his game actually depends more on proper officiating than the other two, considering he gets leveled and thrown to the floor time and time again.  Rondo's game is more subject to the ebb and flow of the officiating du jour. 

Lastly, Kendrick Perkins is terrible, but most Celtics fans have known this for a long time now.

If the C's lose game 4, stick a fork in 'em.  They're cooked.

[clover]

Someone over at RealGM posted a thread with the really, really dreadful away-game playoff winning % of the Big 3.  (E.g., KG 5 for 23 or .179)  I don't think it's fair to pin those losses on the Big 3 because they were generally on poor teams, but I do think it is reasonable at this point to question whether our 'Big 3' having such overwhelmingly negative and unsuccessful experiences in playoff road games may be worse than not having road playoff experience at all.

It may mean that they each individually have to overcome their internalized bad experiences, which is not easy to do (KG seems to be handling it the best), and may explain their being a vacuum where they provided leadership throughout the regular season.  Also, Doc's similarly dismal road playoff record--again despite the explanation that he may have had poor teams--may be a negative experience that he has to work the harder to overcome, and his resulting uncertainty and anxiety would of course trickle down to the guys on the team.

[mahonedog88]

I'm already very close to predicting this...but I'll give the Celtics one more chance and that's tomorow.  But if they lose tomorrow in Cleveland, I'm going to officially predict that they won't win 1 road game in these playoffs.  Does that mean that they'll be the first team in NBA history to win a title without winning a road game?  Not likely, so we better start winning on the road.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

That is absolutely, completely correct.  It also explains why Doc was the exact wrong coach for this team.  Given the lack of serious winning experience on the part of the Big 3, they need a coach who has that experience.  Doc lacks winning experience not just as a coach, but as a player as well.  His teams have *always* fallen short.  He has zero career championships or even appearances in the finals.  Not in college, not as a player, not as a coach.  This is not a knock on him as a person.  But he just might not be the right guy for to help the Big 3 get over their playoff woes. . .

Someone over at RealGM posted a thread with the really, really dreadful away-game playoff winning % of the Big 3.  (E.g., KG 5 for 23 or .179)  I don't think it's fair to pin those losses on the Big 3 because they were generally on poor teams, but I do think it is reasonable at this point to question whether our 'Big 3' having such overwhelmingly negative and unsuccessful experiences in playoff road games may be worse than not having road playoff experience at all.

It may mean that they each individually have to overcome their internalized bad experiences, which is not easy to do (KG seems to be handling it the best), and may explain their being a vacuum where they provided leadership throughout the regular season.  Also, Doc's similarly dismal road playoff record--again despite the explanation that he may have had poor teams--may be a negative experience that he has to work the harder to overcome, and his resulting uncertainty and anxiety would of course trickle down to the guys on the team.