Start Posey?

[jay_jay54]

i guess the Cavs should consider replacing Lebron also,and bring him off the bench...sounds like all this is about,pick on whoever has a bad shooting night.

[wdleehi]

i guess the Cavs should consider replacing Lebron also,and bring him off the bench...sounds like all this is about,pick on whoever has a bad shooting night.

Great idea.

[Roy Hobbs]

come on man, reactionary? he hasn't done much at all this post season...paul has. anyone who knows ray allen, knows that he has not been the same player he was in seattle at all this past year.

1) Ray and Paul have virtually shooting stats thus far in the post-season (and Pierce has twice as many turnovers);

2) Ray actually had a significantly better season shooting the ball than he did in Seattle last year, and had his fourth best shooting season ever.

I'm going to keep repeating these things until they sink in.  Both Paul and Ray will play better; it's silly to judge them based upon a slump.

my analysis isn't based on shooting percentages...it's based on how many shots he's taking. i think there's a broad line between him playing "ubuntu" basketball, and then just being passive and not taking his shots. it was great that sam made his second half shots, but why isn't ray taking those?? that's what we brought him in to do. it just baffles me a bit, due to the fact that paul looks for his shot, and kevin looks for his...he's our team's best shooter! there's no way he can get in a rhythm with so few looks at the basket.

and probably the reason that paul has so many turnovers is due to the fact that he's always taking it to the hole...sometimes it's stripped on the way, and sometimes they call a steal or a block instead of a foul...perfectly natural for him to have turnovers with the type of game he plays.

Ray had one game where he didn't take a lot of shots.  In previous playoff games, he took 14, 13, 14, 14, 14, 19, and 12.  Those are in line with his season averages of 13.5 shots per game.  It's not like he's all of a sudden become passive because he took four shots last night; isn't that the very definition of "reactionary", which is the word you objected to above?

Ray plays his role within the offense as designated.  I would like to see the team run more plays for Ray going to the basket, but Doc has decided that Ray is more effective stretching the defense on most nights.  I find it hard to fault Ray for playing within the team's offensive structure, and I'm not going to get on his case about a slump that has lasted a handful of games.

As to this topic, again, Posey has filled a role all year.  It makes no sense to disrupt things at this point.  Also, for those who remember Jackie's column from a few weeks ago, I don't think Ray's obsession with routine would take very well to coming off the bench.  It's just not going to happen.

[screwedupmaniac]

come on man, reactionary? he hasn't done much at all this post season...paul has. anyone who knows ray allen, knows that he has not been the same player he was in seattle at all this past year.

1) Ray and Paul have virtually shooting stats thus far in the post-season (and Pierce has twice as many turnovers);

2) Ray actually had a significantly better season shooting the ball than he did in Seattle last year, and had his fourth best shooting season ever.

I'm going to keep repeating these things until they sink in.  Both Paul and Ray will play better; it's silly to judge them based upon a slump.

my analysis isn't based on shooting percentages...it's based on how many shots he's taking. i think there's a broad line between him playing "ubuntu" basketball, and then just being passive and not taking his shots. it was great that sam made his second half shots, but why isn't ray taking those?? that's what we brought him in to do. it just baffles me a bit, due to the fact that paul looks for his shot, and kevin looks for his...he's our team's best shooter! there's no way he can get in a rhythm with so few looks at the basket.

and probably the reason that paul has so many turnovers is due to the fact that he's always taking it to the hole...sometimes it's stripped on the way, and sometimes they call a steal or a block instead of a foul...perfectly natural for him to have turnovers with the type of game he plays.

Ray had one game where he didn't take a lot of shots.  In previous playoff games, he took 14, 13, 14, 14, 14, 19, and 12.  Those are in line with his season averages of 13.5 shots per game.  It's not like he's all of a sudden become passive because he took four shots last night; isn't that the very definition of "reactionary", which is the word you objected to above?

Ray plays his role within the offense as designated.  I would like to see the team run more plays for Ray going to the basket, but Doc has decided that Ray is more effective stretching the defense on most nights.  I find it hard to fault Ray for playing within the team's offensive structure, and I'm not going to get on his case about a slump that has lasted a handful of games.

As to this topic, again, Posey has filled a role all year.  It makes no sense to disrupt things at this point.  Also, for those who remember Jackie's column from a few weeks ago, I don't think Ray's obsession with routine would take very well to coming off the bench.  It's just not going to happen.

that's right, i remember reading about how he's OCD and stuff...probably wouldn't take well to that type of a change. you're also right about him playing within the team's structure...i guess it just bothers me that the team's structure has resulted in him becoming more of a 1 dimesional planted shooter...i wish they would set up more 18 ft pick and rolls for him. he can kill that shot.

maybe that's my issue...even when he's getting his shot attempts, it doesn't feel like he's looking aggressively for it. hopefully doc can find a way to better integrate him into the offense on thursday night. he's got wally on him for pete's sake! i think ray can manage to get by him a couple of times...lol

[celts55]

come on man, reactionary? he hasn't done much at all this post season...paul has. anyone who knows ray allen, knows that he has not been the same player he was in seattle at all this past year.

1) Ray and Paul have virtually shooting stats thus far in the post-season (and Pierce has twice as many turnovers);

2) Ray actually had a significantly better season shooting the ball than he did in Seattle last year, and had his fourth best shooting season ever.

I'm going to keep repeating these things until they sink in.  Both Paul and Ray will play better; it's silly to judge them based upon a slump.

Okay, than I shall continue to repeat these things. I am not judging Ray because he is in a slump. I firmly beleave that Posey can defend James better than Ray. I believe Ray would give this team a much needed scorer off the bench. I believe not having to guard Labron would help Pierce on the offensive end. I believe I have seen other team make changes in their rotations.

I hear people who say don't mess with a winning team, but let's face it, Atlanta took them to 7 games. I just don't see the negitive in trying something different. I could be wrong, but with Garnett, Pierce, and Rondo I think you have some scoring there and a good defender wouldn't be a bad idea. Kind of like Bowen starting on San Antonio.

[Steve Weinman]

I really detest these types of reactionary threads, especially when they seemed somewhat misguided.  I like how everyone is going off on Ray, when the worst player last night was Paul Pierce.  Would you be willing to suggest that we start Posey instead of Pierce? I doubt it, and I wouldn't either.

We're fine as we are.

Couldn't agree with you more.  The Celtics +/- rating when Paul Pierce was on the court was a -12.  The Celtics +/- rating when Ray was on the court was a -2.  Mind you Ray Allen played the 2nd most minutes last night to.  So clearly Paul Pierce was the worst player last night for the Cs.

My question is what is Ray to do when he only got 4 shoot at the basket. Are we all watching the same game??

Personally, I mulled over the idea of Posey starting in Ray's spot prior to the series and ultimately leaned against it, mostly for one of the key reasons RH already mentioned: The guys on this team have filled certain roles all year, and after 66 victories and a first-round series victory, this isn't the time to make a preemptive switch to shake that all up.  Ray is a pro, and I have faith that he'll get the job done, and Posey has done an excellent job off the bench all year.  If things start to go seriously south this series and there is some need for a drastic change, it's something that can be addressed then.  I don't think now is the time for a move.

That said, what I find more concerning is the comments regarding Pierce being the team's worst player last night.  Unquestionably, Pierce had a horrendous offensive night.  But last I checked, a big part of this seemed to be related to the fact that he spent most of the night submitting on of the best defensive efforts of his season if not his career.  Given the way these two teams are built, I'll trade a poor offensive game from PP for a similarly poor game from LBJ any day of the week.  I've been a big-time critic of PP's defensive loafing for a few years now, and I thought he made great strides in his effort on that end this season -- but never has it shown up more clearly than it did last night.  Pierce and Posey were instrumental in defending James, and to call Pierce the worst Celtic last night due to his rough offensive performance and his plus-minus -- a stat affected by a nearly immeasurable variety of variables and best used as a supporting marker rather than as the basis of a case against a player -- seems to do a great disservice to the effort he put forth and results he garnered on the defensive end last night.

-sw

[Hrvoje]

If Posey becomes a starter, who will then hug and kiss starters before the game ?! 

[RockinRyA]

If Posey becomes a starter, who will then hug and kiss starters before the game ?! 

SCAL 

[Vermont Green]

I really detest these types of reactionary threads, especially when they seemed somewhat misguided.  I like how everyone is going off on Ray, when the worst player last night was Paul Pierce.  Would you be willing to suggest that we start Posey instead of Pierce? I doubt it, and I wouldn't either.

We're fine as we are.

Sorry to be the object of your detest, but I don't think it's a reactionary thread. I am not "going off" an Allen. I like Ray alot, but I can't see why if he came in off the bench it would be so misguided. I agree that Pierce was the worst player for the Celts last night. Maybe he might have played better if Posey was guarding Lebron and he was on Wally? I'm just thinking about match ups in this series. Maybe it would help Ray get his touch back. I really don't see the negitive in it, other than brusing Ray's ego a little. I still see him playing a lot of minutes, just a different rotation. And for what it's worth, it's not a reaction to this one game, I've been thinking it for a while.
Again, it's just an idea. Don't have to get so defensive.

I thought starting reactionary threads was the whole point of a forum???

Anyway, on Ray Allen, I don't undertand why he couldn't score on Wally.  Cle did play great team defense, they defended the off the ball pick and rolls just the way most teams defend on the ball, they double hard on the shooter and then rotate to get everyone back.  It worked, Ray was not open coming off picks.  When he tried get open by waiting for Wally to double off him, whatever rotation Cle needed to do, they did, he wasn't open.  When he dribble-drove to the basket, he was swallowed up by Wallace and Illy.  I think Ray should be scoring on Wally.  If he is not, for whatever reason, being cold, the defiensive scheme, what ever, then Posey needs to play more (but probably not start).  Having Pierce on Wally vs. LeBron brings more advantages then having Ray out there but not scoring.

I have enough faith in the coaching staff and in Ray's BB IQ that I believe they can figure out a way to get Ray scoring but if not, I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting to see more of Posey.

[crownsy]

to be fair to ray, he had a grand total of 2 plays run for him. its not like he was 0-15.

on the subject of starting posey, no i wouldn't pierce also plays good defense on lebron, including forcing 3 turnovers last night in the last 4 minutes which was huge, and since posey is pierce's sub, they both come in fresh and able to harrass james effectivly.

If you start them both, when posey and pierce need rest, you turn LBJ over to tony or ray, both downgrades.

I'd rather have him see pierce or posey in his face for all 46 minutes he plays, rather than both of them for 35

[MBz]

The issue here is not Ray Allen, but the system that the Celtics run.  KG and Ray Allen should be playing a 2 man pick and pop/roll game.  KG is perfect for it since he can pop out or roll and Ray Allen can make that pass and knock down the jumpshot if people go under the pick.  The times I've seen them do it, it works, I just don't understand it, we've got one of the best shooters on the move of all time and Doc doesn't utilize him like that.

[celts55]

to be fair to ray, he had a grand total of 2 plays run for him. its not like he was 0-15.

on the subject of starting posey, no i wouldn't pierce also plays good defense on lebron, including forcing 3 turnovers last night in the last 4 minutes which was huge, and since posey is pierce's sub, they both come in fresh and able to harrass james effectivly.

If you start them both, when posey and pierce need rest, you turn LBJ over to tony or ray, both downgrades.
I'd rather have him see pierce or posey in his face for all 46 minutes he plays, rather than both of them for 35

I thought Tony Allen was supposed to be a defensive specialist. Do you think Pierce is a better defender that him?

[crownsy]

to be fair to ray, he had a grand total of 2 plays run for him. its not like he was 0-15.

on the subject of starting posey, no i wouldn't pierce also plays good defense on lebron, including forcing 3 turnovers last night in the last 4 minutes which was huge, and since posey is pierce's sub, they both come in fresh and able to harrass james effectivly.

If you start them both, when posey and pierce need rest, you turn LBJ over to tony or ray, both downgrades.
I'd rather have him see pierce or posey in his face for all 46 minutes he plays, rather than both of them for 35

I thought Tony Allen was supposed to be a defensive specialist. Do you think Pierce is a better defender that him?

tony allen gives up 6 inches and 45 pounds to lebron. lebron is not a gaurd, whe's a forward, mabey the strongest forward in the leage.

you wouldnt ask rondo to gaurd Z would you? why would you ask tony to gaurd lebron for long stretches?

[Steve Weinman]

to be fair to ray, he had a grand total of 2 plays run for him. its not like he was 0-15.

on the subject of starting posey, no i wouldn't pierce also plays good defense on lebron, including forcing 3 turnovers last night in the last 4 minutes which was huge, and since posey is pierce's sub, they both come in fresh and able to harrass james effectivly.

If you start them both, when posey and pierce need rest, you turn LBJ over to tony or ray, both downgrades.
I'd rather have him see pierce or posey in his face for all 46 minutes he plays, rather than both of them for 35

I thought Tony Allen was supposed to be a defensive specialist. Do you think Pierce is a better defender that him?

Tony has the physical gifts to be an excellent defender -- but a big part of being successful at that end of the floor is the mental side, of staying in control and harnessing that energy so as to prevent unneeded gambles and silly fouls.  TA has yet to master this -- for the most recent example, see the three-shot foul he committed on Joe Johnson in Game 5 against Atlanta.  It's one of many plays along those lines.

-sw

[jay_jay54]

to be fair to ray, he had a grand total of 2 plays run for him. its not like he was 0-15.

on the subject of starting posey, no i wouldn't pierce also plays good defense on lebron, including forcing 3 turnovers last night in the last 4 minutes which was huge, and since posey is pierce's sub, they both come in fresh and able to harrass james effectivly.

If you start them both, when posey and pierce need rest, you turn LBJ over to tony or ray, both downgrades.
I'd rather have him see pierce or posey in his face for all 46 minutes he plays, rather than both of them for 35

I thought Tony Allen was supposed to be a defensive specialist. Do you think Pierce is a better defender that him?

Tony has the physical gifts to be an excellent defender -- but a big part of being successful at that end of the floor is the mental side, of staying in control and harnessing that energy so as to prevent unneeded gambles and silly fouls.  TA has yet to master this -- for the most recent example, see the three-shot foul he committed on Joe Johnson in Game 5 against Atlanta.  It's one of many plays along those lines.

-sw

tp SW for this post,you said it all,in a nutshell.I guess nut is not the appropiate word here,but you know what i mean.