Author Topic: Winning Ugly  (Read 10510 times)

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Re: Winning Ugly
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2008, 05:24:50 PM »

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Expect every game in this series to be played like last night's. 

Lebron won't be off like that again tomorrow.

The key for the Celtics is going to be Rondo.  If he plays like he played last night then the Cavs are in trouble.  Cleveland's defense is going to take away Allen and Pierce and try to keep Garnett out of the paint.  The cavs are content leaving Rondo (Cassell) and Perkins open and letting them try and win the game.  The PGs for Boston executed last night.....can they do it again?

This reminds me of the Pistons/Cavs series last year.  I still think the Cavs can win in 6
Reminds me of that series too. The Cavs are definitely in with a shout.

You've nobody to guard KG though, don't win if the continues to play like he did last night. Your perimeter defense isn't as good as last year either. With Posey+Pierce the Celtics have two defenders instead of one who can match up well with James.

Definitely in with a shout though.

Re: Winning Ugly
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2008, 09:06:39 AM »

Offline MMacOH

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Expect every game in this series to be played like last night's. 

Lebron won't be off like that again tomorrow.

The key for the Celtics is going to be Rondo.  If he plays like he played last night then the Cavs are in trouble.  Cleveland's defense is going to take away Allen and Pierce and try to keep Garnett out of the paint.  The cavs are content leaving Rondo (Cassell) and Perkins open and letting them try and win the game.  The PGs for Boston executed last night.....can they do it again?

This reminds me of the Pistons/Cavs series last year.  I still think the Cavs can win in 6
Reminds me of that series too. The Cavs are definitely in with a shout.

You've nobody to guard KG though, don't win if the continues to play like he did last night. Your perimeter defense isn't as good as last year either. With Posey+Pierce the Celtics have two defenders instead of one who can match up well with James.

Definitely in with a shout though.

Wallace actually did a decent job on KG.  He keeps him out of the paint which is all you can really ask.  The Cavs want KG to shoot jumpers, if he is making them then so be it.

Also, the cavs perimeter defense is still very good.  Hughes may be slightly missed in that respect but the Cavs defense is bot going to be the issue in this series. 

Re: Winning Ugly
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2008, 09:19:27 AM »

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Expect every game in this series to be played like last night's. 

Lebron won't be off like that again tomorrow.

The key for the Celtics is going to be Rondo.  If he plays like he played last night then the Cavs are in trouble.  Cleveland's defense is going to take away Allen and Pierce and try to keep Garnett out of the paint.  The cavs are content leaving Rondo (Cassell) and Perkins open and letting them try and win the game.  The PGs for Boston executed last night.....can they do it again?

This reminds me of the Pistons/Cavs series last year.  I still think the Cavs can win in 6
Reminds me of that series too. The Cavs are definitely in with a shout.

You've nobody to guard KG though, don't win if the continues to play like he did last night. Your perimeter defense isn't as good as last year either. With Posey+Pierce the Celtics have two defenders instead of one who can match up well with James.

Definitely in with a shout though.

Wallace actually did a decent job on KG.  He keeps him out of the paint which is all you can really ask.  The Cavs want KG to shoot jumpers, if he is making them then so be it.

Also, the cavs perimeter defense is still very good.  Hughes may be slightly missed in that respect but the Cavs defense is bot going to be the issue in this series. 


About 75% of Garnetts shots are jump shots (73% this season). He got into the post/paint a lot more than that last night. And Ben Wallace did a terrible job, he's simply too short to contest KG's shot. It's like an open look every time KG faces him up or uses his turnaround J. Garnett got going offensively because of Wallace's inept defense. This isn't new. He did this to Wallace in Chicago and in Detroit in the past. It's just a really good matchup for Kevin.

By the way he couldn't do this (shoot over the top with supreme easy and confidence) against Gooden who was a legit 6-10 with a 7 foot wingspan.

The Cavs perimeter defense is a lot weaker. The team defense is very solid but both Wally and Delonte are below average one-on-one defenders. They're also incapable of switching on defense. Compare that to last season when Larry, Sasha, Bron were all 6-5 to 6-8, all very quick, all solid one-on-one defenders and capable of switching everything. This season you have to throw a double team down into the post whenever Delonte is forced onto someone else. Or you have to throw a double team out to the perimeter because Wally can't keep up with Pierce or Rondo. The perimeter defense is a lot weaker.

Mike Brown is a defensive genious. I think he's worked wonders with Delonte and Wally, especially their team D (rotations), but they're definitely a lot weaker.

Re: Winning Ugly
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2008, 09:38:44 AM »

Offline MMacOH

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Expect every game in this series to be played like last night's. 

Lebron won't be off like that again tomorrow.

The key for the Celtics is going to be Rondo.  If he plays like he played last night then the Cavs are in trouble.  Cleveland's defense is going to take away Allen and Pierce and try to keep Garnett out of the paint.  The cavs are content leaving Rondo (Cassell) and Perkins open and letting them try and win the game.  The PGs for Boston executed last night.....can they do it again?

This reminds me of the Pistons/Cavs series last year.  I still think the Cavs can win in 6
Reminds me of that series too. The Cavs are definitely in with a shout.

You've nobody to guard KG though, don't win if the continues to play like he did last night. Your perimeter defense isn't as good as last year either. With Posey+Pierce the Celtics have two defenders instead of one who can match up well with James.

Definitely in with a shout though.

Wallace actually did a decent job on KG.  He keeps him out of the paint which is all you can really ask.  The Cavs want KG to shoot jumpers, if he is making them then so be it.

Also, the cavs perimeter defense is still very good.  Hughes may be slightly missed in that respect but the Cavs defense is bot going to be the issue in this series. 


About 75% of Garnetts shots are jump shots (73% this season). He got into the post/paint a lot more than that last night. And Ben Wallace did a terrible job, he's simply too short to contest KG's shot. It's like an open look every time KG faces him up or uses his turnaround J. Garnett got going offensively because of Wallace's inept defense. This isn't new. He did this to Wallace in Chicago and in Detroit in the past. It's just a really good matchup for Kevin.

By the way he couldn't do this (shoot over the top with supreme easy and confidence) against Gooden who was a legit 6-10 with a 7 foot wingspan.

The Cavs perimeter defense is a lot weaker. The team defense is very solid but both Wally and Delonte are below average one-on-one defenders. They're also incapable of switching on defense. Compare that to last season when Larry, Sasha, Bron were all 6-5 to 6-8, all very quick, all solid one-on-one defenders and capable of switching everything. This season you have to throw a double team down into the post whenever Delonte is forced onto someone else. Or you have to throw a double team out to the perimeter because Wally can't keep up with Pierce or Rondo. The perimeter defense is a lot weaker.

Mike Brown is a defensive genious. I think he's worked wonders with Delonte and Wally, especially their team D (rotations), but they're definitely a lot weaker.

Interesting points.  Wally is definitely a defensive liability, but thankfully Ray Allen chose to just stand around Tuesday night making Wally's job pretty easy. 

As for Gooden being able to guard Garnett....that would be the only thing he may have been able to do.  Gooden easily missed 70% of his defensive rotations....the guy just never got it.  He was a huge defensive liability even if he could guard KG one on one.  Wallace at least rotates and clogs the lane.  I will take that any day.


Re: Winning Ugly
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2008, 09:46:22 AM »

Offline jkron33

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I think that offensively, this was certainly an ugly game because of way too many turnovers. I don't expect us to do that again tonight. But, if James Posey can continue to play Lebron the same way that he did in game 1 (and I know he will), then we can probably expect a game from Lebron which isn't characteristic for him. Does anyone remember how we shut down TMAC during the texas triangle road trip. TMAC said that it was the best defense he has ever seen. That is big! I expect there to be more pick and rolls tonight, but we also happen to be pretty [dang] good at defending that. I will take another ugly win tonight, because if ugly means that we have shut down D on Lebron, so be it.

Re: Winning Ugly
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2008, 09:59:34 AM »

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As for Gooden being able to guard Garnett....that would be the only thing he may have been able to do.  Gooden easily missed 70% of his defensive rotations....the guy just never got it.  He was a huge defensive liability even if he could guard KG one on one.  Wallace at least rotates and clogs the lane.  I will take that any day.

I didn't think Gooden's rotations were that bad. They certainly weren't his strength but they were solid enough. I thought Gooden to Wallace was a big downgrade for the Cavs. Worse rebounder, worse scorer, worse offensive player, worse man-to-man defender. The only thing he's better at is help defense but you already had a good defense and you already had Varajeo who was already a better player than Wallace. Help defense is nice but it doesn't outweigh all those other things especially when Wallace doesn't do it at the highest level anymore and when you already have someone better than him at that on the roster.

Ben Wallace is the fourth best big man on the Cavs, he's only on the floor because of his reputation. Varajeo and Joe Smith offer more. Varajeo is better at Ben's job and Joe offers more scoring/offensive ability along with better man-to-man D and solid rebounding.

Ben Wallace's offense is simply atrocious. Kevin Garnett isn't even bothering to defend him. If Ben steps beyond the FT line he's in about 10 feet off space. There was even several times when he caught the ball at around 6-8 feet from the rim and he had clear daylight. He's really hurting the Cavs ability to create space and opportunities for LeBron.

Re: Winning Ugly
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2008, 10:13:32 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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I think that offensively, this was certainly an ugly game because of way too many turnovers. I don't expect us to do that again tonight. But, if James Posey can continue to play Lebron the same way that he did in game 1 (and I know he will), then we can probably expect a game from Lebron which isn't characteristic for him. Does anyone remember how we shut down TMAC during the texas triangle road trip. TMAC said that it was the best defense he has ever seen. That is big! I expect there to be more pick and rolls tonight, but we also happen to be pretty [dang] good at defending that. I will take another ugly win tonight, because if ugly means that we have shut down D on Lebron, so be it.

I'm worried about Posey though.  I read that he hurt his ribs.  Anyone know anything about that?  Will he be ready to go tonight?
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: Winning Ugly
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2008, 11:30:48 AM »

Offline MMacOH

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I didn't think Gooden's rotations were that bad. They certainly weren't his strength but they were solid enough. I thought Gooden to Wallace was a big downgrade for the Cavs. Worse rebounder, worse scorer, worse offensive player, worse man-to-man defender. The only thing he's better at is help defense but you already had a good defense and you already had Varajeo who was already a better player than Wallace. Help defense is nice but it doesn't outweigh all those other things especially when Wallace doesn't do it at the highest level anymore and when you already have someone better than him at that on the roster.

His rotations were either slow or non-existent the majority of the time.  Gooden is one of those players that you can't judge by stats.  He would play one good game then take a game off.  Play another good game and take 4 games off.  Very frustrating to watch.  Couple that with the the fact that he had a knack of letting LBJ passes bounce off his face, stomach, hands, etc. and Cleveland fans were okay with letting him go. 

Quote
Ben Wallace is the fourth best big man on the Cavs, he's only on the floor because of his reputation. Varajeo and Joe Smith offer more. Varajeo is better at Ben's job and Joe offers more scoring/offensive ability along with better man-to-man D and solid rebounding.

Ben Wallace's offense is simply atrocious. Kevin Garnett isn't even bothering to defend him. If Ben steps beyond the FT line he's in about 10 feet off space. There was even several times when he caught the ball at around 6-8 feet from the rim and he had clear daylight. He's really hurting the Cavs ability to create space and opportunities for LeBron.

The big men cause huge headaches for Mike Brown even though they are seemingly a position of strength for the Cavs.  I think Wallace is our second or third best big man, very close with Joe Smith.  He is very limited offensively, but he knows it.  If you watch him he will take dunks and layups, thats about it.  He stays near the hoop and waits for his guy to rotate off of him and hopes to get a bunny.  He is probably rhe strongest 'paint' defender the Cavs have.

Joe Smith has a good offensive game, good rebounding skills, but he is pushed around too easily on the inside.  I like seeing him on the court for offense, but I hate seeing him on the defensive end (where Garnett can overppower him in the paint as we saw Tuesday). 

Andy has now become my 4th ranked big man on the Cavs.  He still has a lot of energy and plays some decent defense but he has become a huge offensive liability.  He thinks he is the second coming of Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett, yet he has the offensive skills of Ben Wallace.  Watch when Andy gets the ball.  He likes to try and drive and create shots for himself even though he is a terrible offensive player.  Very frustrating to watch as a Cavs fan

Re: Winning Ugly
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2008, 11:45:57 AM »

Offline Hrvoje

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Chuck: "Cleveland has better bench."

 ???

Was he referring to the bench that players sit on?

1. game Cavs bench 17, Celtics 22
2. game Cavs bench 17, Celtics 35

So, Cleveland bench is better?