What's wrong with waves?

[ScoobyDoo]

Well, I usually get hammered on posts like this but screw it, it's alright to get hammered every now and then. Ok, here is my theory; if you have the depth, why not use it. By this I mean, if you could come in waves at a team, why not do it. For example:

You start:

Perkins
Garnett
Pierce
Ray Allen
Rondo

They play the fisrt 8 minutes of Quarters 1, 2 & 3 and the last 8 minutes of every fourth quarter.

Your second unit:

PJ Brown or Big Baby
Big Baby or Powe
Posey
TAllen or Cassell
Cassell or House

Basically plays the last 4 minutes of quarters 1,2 & 3 and the first 4 minutes of the fourth. They are kind of like  kamikaze squad, 4 minutes of hell.

Now, I am not saying you don't maybe make a substitution here and there obviously or that if you're winning big you don't play the subs down the stetch or that you may leave a starter in for certain match ups here and there, but the basic concept is these waves.

To me, your starters would know twhen they can expect rest. Your bench players would know they can go 120%, just tear up whoever's on the court.

Then your starter come in completely fresh for the last 8 minutes and stick it to the team. I know I would never like to see  starting unit coming off the bench at the 8 minutes mark of the fourth, completely rested and ready to go. 

[Bahku]

Doc's been doing this, to an extent, but rotation has a lot to do with what substitutions the opposing team makes, and you have to adjust accordingly. It would be nice if we could just have a steady rotation, to throw our subs at the other team in waves, as you suggest, (great idea, by the way - TP - you'll get no hammering from me), but there are a lot of other factors and variables involved, (like injuries, tempo, being a bit unpredictable to throw off the opponent), when actually implementing that rotation, and regularity is, unfortunately, not one of them.

[Chris]

There is nothing wrong with them in the regular season.  However, there are two problems with them in the playoffs.

1. You want your best players on the court as much as possible.  Generally during the playoffs, starters play upwards of 40 minutes per game.  That is not really conducive to massive line changes. 

2. In the playoffs, players weaknesses are generally attacked by good teams.  Generally speaking, when you get into the second string players, the reason they are not starters is because they have more glaring weaknesses than the starters (House, Allen, Cassell, Davis all have glaring weaknesses...Powe also has a weakness in rotations, but its not that glaring anymore), so when you have multiple players on the court with major weaknesses, it makes it much easier for the other team to attack them.  If you mix those players in with the starters, who are generally more complete players, it is easier to hide thier deficiencies.

[TrueGreen]

Playing time is not a problem in the playoffs because there is so much time between games. Also the timeouts and half time are longer because of National TV. Doc is doing what he thinks is right to win games and keep his main guys sharp. Chris, I also think you may be misunderstanding what Bob Ryan was saying. I think he was saying that in a subtle way the Celtics maintain control of the game without having wild mood swings. They say the game is usually one of runs, first one team, then the other. With the Celtics the game is played with lower peaks. Other teams don't go on big runs and neither do the C's. I personally am frightened if the C's go in at the half with too big a lead. I like to see them up or down by 5 or so.

[Chris]

Playing time is not a problem in the playoffs because there is so much time between games. Also the timeouts and half time are longer because of National TV. Doc is doing what he thinks is right to win games and keep his main guys sharp. Chris, I also think you may be misunderstanding what Bob Ryan was saying. I think he was saying that in a subtle way the Celtics maintain control of the game without having wild mood swings. They say the game is usually one of runs, first one team, then the other. With the Celtics the game is played with lower peaks. Other teams don't go on big runs and neither do the C's. I personally am frightened if the C's go in at the half with too big a lead. I like to see them up or down by 5 or so.

You lost me, I didn't read Bob Ryan's article.  All I am saying is that putting a bunch of players with holes in their game on the court at the same time is not a good thing in the playoffs. 

[EJPLAYA]

Well, I usually get hammered on posts like this but screw it, it's alright to get hammered every now and then. Ok, here is my theory; if you have the depth, why not use it. By this I mean, if you could come in waves at a team, why not do it. For example:

You start:

Perkins
Garnett
Pierce
Ray Allen
Rondo

They play the fisrt 8 minutes of Quarters 1, 2 & 3 and the last 8 minutes of every fourth quarter.

Your second unit:

PJ Brown or Big Baby
Big Baby or Powe
Posey
TAllen or Cassell
Cassell or House

Basically plays the last 4 minutes of quarters 1,2 & 3 and the first 4 minutes of the fourth. They are kind of like  kamikaze squad, 4 minutes of hell.

Now, I am not saying you don't maybe make a substitution here and there obviously or that if you're winning big you don't play the subs down the stetch or that you may leave a starter in for certain match ups here and there, but the basic concept is these waves.

To me, your starters would know twhen they can expect rest. Your bench players would know they can go 120%, just tear up whoever's on the court.

Then your starter come in completely fresh for the last 8 minutes and stick it to the team. I know I would never like to see  starting unit coming off the bench at the 8 minutes mark of the fourth, completely rested and ready to go. 

Jerry Sloan used to get hammered in the days of Stockton and Malone because he had a set substitution pattern just like this. Many blamed his lack of a championship in those years on this. One of the starters, or subs for that matter, could be hot as all get out and he would yank them when the clock hit his scheduled time. This isn't the best way to be able to get a team to play up to there potential. One of our strengths is that we have a lot of guys that can have 10-12 pts or 25 pts on any given night and if you run them set patterns like this they tend to not be able to remain hot. I like that Doc has an idea of approximately what he wants to do, but if a guy gets hot he will leave them in and milk it.

Nice discussion though!

[Roy Hobbs]

Pretty much what Chris said.

Teams don't make "line changes" because when they do, they're matched up against the other team's starters, and they get killed. 

In the "second unit" you proposed, there's only one player who can create his own shot: Cassell.  He's a very streaky shooter, and if he's not on, that means there is *zero* offense for that squad, while it's matched up against the starters on the opposing team.  That's not a recipe for victory.

[Celtic]

I am happy with what we have had all season, a competent coach who controls the game and makes his changes accordingly, and when he has to react to the game situation, puts his team in a position to win. There is no reason to set a pattern in stone and refuse to deviate from it, in the playoffs especially you have to respond to the opponent and the pace of the game, keeping a rigid, formulaic system of substitutions is not conducive to doing so.

[ScoobyDoo]

Yeah, good points all and as someone said Doc is keeping everyone rested. Also agree it's hard to pull someone like Sloan used to do when they are on fire.

I guess the whole wave thing is part of my fantasy of the Celtics completely crushing every opponent they play from now until when Garnett and Pierce retire. Every game a massacre, with bodies flying and players from the other teams completely dejected and overwhelmed, Leprachauns running around...

I have an illness. I'm one of those fans whose mood is affected by a loss. I live on the west coast so I tivo every game. If I see they've lost I can't watch the game, I can't take it..

But on a serious note I am a fan of a longer rotation if you have the players. The more rest the better as the playoffs go along. That's why I'm hoping that as needed, we will see Eddie, TAllen and Big baby in the right situations and that they'll get a little burn between now and then so they're ready when that situation comes.

I'm actually pretty confident Doc will manage it ok in keeping everyone ready. he still hasn't completely convinced me he can manage on the run game adjustments. He does ok with half time stuff now.