The Steve Nash Question

[MaineBleedsGreen]

Some good discussion was raised in the "Stoudemire most overrated in league?" thread once Steve Nash's name became involved. In order to not hijack that thread I thought I'd open up a new one for this discussion.

The initial point was (i'm probably going to get this out of order and/or completely wrong) that Amare gets a ton of easy looks because of Nash, and if you take Nash away then he would have a much more difficult time scoring. Another poster posed the question can't the same thing be said for Nash? aren't his assist numbers inflated because he has always had the luxury of playing with great finishers/scorers? and the discussion went from there.

So this raised multiple questions for me.

1) Does Nash help Amare? Does Amare help Nash? or are their fates intertwined? (I think they help each other)

2) Did Nash deserve either of his MVP awards? (I never thought he deserved either of them, and Fan from VT brought up some good statistics in that other thread that helped me see why I held this belief)

3) If you were rating point guard performance this season, where would you rank Nash? (I go 1) CP3 2) DWilliams 3)Nash 4)Rondo -I'm a homer 5)Calderon)

4) If you were starting a team where and could choose any point guard where would Nash rank? ( 1) CP3 2) DWilliams 3) Rondo 4)DWade 5) Nash

5) So is Nash overrated? (In my opinion yes. The lack of D is my biggest reason, and I just don't think his offense makes up for the lack of defense when compared to other top point guards. What I mean is if you substitute other pointgaurds from my list their Defense will be much much better than Nash's and any offensive drop off would be canceled out)

[Fan from VT]

Thanks for starting this thread. Here's what I wrote in the other thread:

In all seriousness, I do believe Nash is overrated. Look at his stats his two MVP seasons:

MIN  FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL  RB   AST   PTS    PER
34  .502  .431  .887  3.3   1   3.4  11.5  15.5   22.04
36  .512  .439  .921  3.5  .8   4.2  10.5  18.8   23.29

Those are not all-time numbers. And before you give me "point guard intangibles," here's the last stat line of the last MVP point guard, Magic Johnson:

MIN  FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL  RB   AST   PTS
37  .480  .384  .890  3.7  1.7  6.6  11.5  22.3   

Johnson had a significantly better overall season, when factoring steals and the large increases in scoring and rebounding.

So whom did Nash beat each year?
05-06
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL   RB    AST     PTS   PER
Lebron:
42.5  .480  .335  .738  3.3  1.6   7.0   6.6     31.4   28.17
Dirk (whose team was BETTER post-Nash):
38.1  .480  .406  .901  1.9  0.7   9.0     2.8    26.6   28.20
Kobe (take a look at the supporting casts)
41.0 .450   .347  .850  3.1  1.8   5.3     4.5    35.4   28.11

04-05
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
Shaq
34.1  .601       .461  2.8  0.5   10.4  2.7     22.9   27.03
Dirk
38.7  .459  .399  .869    2.3  1.2   9.7     3.1     26.1   26.14
Duncan   
33.4  .496  .333  .670  1.9  0.7   11.1  2.7     20.3   27.12

All of those stat lines are just better than either of Nash's years. Just look at the PERs! Not to mention the fact that Shaq and Duncan each had more than 2 blocks per game in 04-05, and Duncan, in addition to having better overall numbers, actually makes his defense significantly better than does Nash.

Compare Chris Paul's numbers this year to Nash's from either MVP year:
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%    TO   STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
37.6  .488  .369  .851    2.51  2.71  4.0   11.6      21.1    28.39

I mean, Chris Paul's season absolutely destrys Nash's MVP years. Check out that PER, and look at the scoring and steals, and almost a full turnover less than Nash. If Nash was truly a deserving MVP candidate, Paul has to win this year. Chris's #1 competition this year is generally considered Kobe, with Lebron another viable option (for purposes of this and to avoid starting a flame war i'm pretending KG is not an option).

MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%    TO   STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
Kobe
38.9  .459   .361  .840    3.13  1.84  6.3   5.4      28.3    24.31
Lebron
40.4  .484   .315  .712    3.40  1.84  7.9   7.2      30.0    29.23

In reality, the race should come down to Lebron and Paul, but writers with votes like to think that they know more about the sport than other people do, so they rely on things like "intangibles" talk their way into justifying their voting for their favorite candidate.
But really, Kobe's season this year is worse than his when he lost to Nash, AND Paul's year this year his better than  either of Nash's MVP years. Therefore, at least one of the following statements has to be true: 1) Nash never deserved to win an MVP award, or 2) Chris Paul has to win this year's MVP in a landslide.

I want people to understand I don't dislike Nash. I think he's overrated and gets too much credit for the Suns' success. Trying to take overall game into account, I'd rank this year's PGs as:

Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Chauncy Billups, Steve Nash, Tony Parker, Jose Calderon, Baron Davis.

If I were drafting a point guard for a franchise, I'd probably go:
Paul, Williams, Derrick Rose, Parker, Calderon

[wdleehi]

Amare gets a lot of easy shots down low because of pick and rolls with Nash.


Put him with an average PG, he easy shots will go down.  He becomes more of a jumpshooting PF.  (or he develops some back to the back moves)


If you replaced Amare with Howard, Howard will score just as many points at a high %.  The Suns would be better because of defense. 


Nash is terrible on defense, but he is what makes Phoenix, Phoenix. 

You can replace Amare with Diaw, and the Suns are still a top team. 

Replace Nash, the team is probably out of the playoffs this year.

[coco]

Why didn't Nash take the last shot in regulation?  Why was Barbosa taking the last shot? Nash is PHX best shooter and decision maker, yet he was thinking pass first on a  game winning play.  

.those are the questions I need answer for

[threzd]

In 2003-04, the Phoenix Suns went 29-53. That offseason they signed Steve Nash and Quentin Richardson and ended up going 62-20 and making the Conference Finals. The next year after that, the Suns lost Joe Johnson. Amare Stoudemire then got injured and ended playing 3 games the entire season. This led experts to believe that the Suns would fall - but they went 54-28 and made the Conference Finals again.

I also believe that from 2000-01 to 2006-07 (I may be off by a year), the team that led the league in scoring had Steve Nash running the point.

Now many will say that the success of these teams cannot all be credited to Nash, and while I somewhat agree, I think that a very significant portion is Nash's doing. The energy, leadership, and decision-making that he brings really transforms teams (one could say it's pretty similar to KG's impact).

And as much as I love Rondo, I really don't think that I could take Rondo over Nash.

[wdleehi]

Why didn't Nash take the last shot in regulation?  Why was Barbosa taking the last shot? Nash is PHX best shooter and decision maker, yet he was thinking pass first on a  game winning play.   

.those are the questions I need answer for

Who made the falling to the side 3 pointer to tie it up in the 2nd overtime?   (only to have Manu win the game)


He trusts his teammates to make shots.  That is a big part of his game and the Suns game. 

[Roy Hobbs]

In 2003-04, the Phoenix Suns went 29-53. That offseason they signed Steve Nash and Quentin Richardson and ended up going 62-20 and making the Conference Finals. The next year after that, the Suns lost Joe Johnson. Amare Stoudemire then got injured and ended playing 3 games the entire season. This led experts to believe that the Suns would fall - but they went 54-28 and made the Conference Finals again.

I also believe that from 2000-01 to 2006-07 (I may be off by a year), the team that led the league in scoring had Steve Nash running the point.

Now many will say that the success of these teams cannot all be credited to Nash, and while I somewhat agree, I think that a very significant portion is Nash's doing. The energy, leadership, and decision-making that he brings really transforms teams (one could say it's pretty similar to KG's impact).

And as much as I love Rondo, I really don't think that I could take Rondo over Nash.

Yeah, well said.

Why can't a team have *two* great players?  Why do we have to discount Nash, because he has Amare, or Amare, because he has Nash?  Jordan had Scottie Pippen; does that make either of those two players anything less than an all-time great?  Malone had Stockton; Russell had Cousy. 

Steve Nash is one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA, and he's a great distributor.  He massively improved the Suns squad when he signed there as a free agent, and he's the single most important player on that team.

Also, what is the utility in comparing Nash to Magic Johnson?  Very few players have ever played at Magic's level; that doesn't make them lesser players, it's just a reflection of the greatness of Magic.

Nash is still a top-3 point guard, and will be for the next few seasons, assuming his back doesn't give out on him.  Whether he deserved the MVP awards is a matter of debate, but I think it's hard to argue that he's been anything other than a top-tier player for the past several seasons.

[Brickowski]

As an up tempo pg, Nash is an MVP caliber player.  As a half court pg he's just above average.

Phoenix is a different team with Shaq, and both Nash and Stoudamire are still adjusting. Nash isn't nearly as effective with no more Marion to fill a lane and with Grant Hill hurting.

[LarBrd33]

In 2003-04, the Phoenix Suns went 29-53. That offseason they signed Steve Nash and Quentin Richardson and ended up going 62-20 and making the Conference Finals. The next year after that, the Suns lost Joe Johnson. Amare Stoudemire then got injured and ended playing 3 games the entire season. This led experts to believe that the Suns would fall - but they went 54-28 and made the Conference Finals again.

I also believe that from 2000-01 to 2006-07 (I may be off by a year), the team that led the league in scoring had Steve Nash running the point.

Now many will say that the success of these teams cannot all be credited to Nash, and while I somewhat agree, I think that a very significant portion is Nash's doing. The energy, leadership, and decision-making that he brings really transforms teams (one could say it's pretty similar to KG's impact).

And as much as I love Rondo, I really don't think that I could take Rondo over Nash.

Yeah, well said.

Why can't a team have *two* great players?  Why do we have to discount Nash, because he has Amare, or Amare, because he has Nash?  Jordan had Scottie Pippen; does that make either of those two players anything less than an all-time great?  Malone had Stockton; Russell had Cousy. 

Steve Nash is one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA, and he's a great distributor.  He massively improved the Suns squad when he signed there as a free agent, and he's the single most important player on that team.

Also, what is the utility in comparing Nash to Magic Johnson?  Very few players have ever played at Magic's level; that doesn't make them lesser players, it's just a reflection of the greatness of Magic.

Nash is still a top-3 point guard, and will be for the next few seasons, assuming his back doesn't give out on him.  Whether he deserved the MVP awards is a matter of debate, but I think it's hard to argue that he's been anything other than a top-tier player for the past several seasons.

Nash obviously is the guy who turned that team into a winner.   Like the other poster mentioned... it went from a 29 win team to 62 win team.  I think he deserved his MVP's.

Speaking of Jordan/Pippen, though.  They won 57 games in 1992-93 when they won their 3rd championship.  Then, Jordan retired to play baseball and the Bulls had Pippen by themself.   They won 55 games.  Only 2 less.   I always thought that was interesting.  Sure, they lost in the conference semi-finals, but Pippen was a badass that year.  22 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals.   Guy might have been a little underrated.

[Ersatz]

Why didn't Nash take the last shot in regulation?  Why was Barbosa taking the last shot? Nash is PHX best shooter and decision maker, yet he was thinking pass first on a  game winning play.   

.those are the questions I need answer for

Who made the falling to the side 3 pointer to tie it up in the 2nd overtime?   (only to have Manu win the game)


He trusts his teammates to make shots.  That is a big part of his game and the Suns game. 

Yes, and also, Bowen was guarding Nash at that point. IIRC, Parker was guarding Nash on most of those shots in OT. But after Parker fouled out, they put Bowen on him, which was brilliant. Bowen plays the pick and roll, beautifully. Parker does not.

[davemonsterband]

1) Does Nash help Amare? Does Amare help Nash? or are their fates intertwined?

Answer: 7 foot monster + any pure point guard + D'Antoni system = inevitably great numbers. No, they just do their jobs and are used to each other.

2) Did Nash deserve either of his MVP awards?

Answer: No, he didn't deserve them, at all. Product of the system, plays no defense. More “valuable” than Shaq, a travesty. Yes they’d be hooped without him but it’s because he exclusively runs their offense, that’s a different type of MVP.

3) If you were rating point guard performance this season, where would you rank Nash?

Answer: I won't rank him, I wouldn't pay him his salary to play no defense therefore I can't even put him top 5.

4) If you were starting a team where and could choose any point guard where would Nash rank?

Answer: Read number 3.

5) So is Nash overrated?

Answer: Yes.

These are the only stats that matter.

Dallas Steve Nash - 14 to 17 ppg, 7 to 8 apg, 47 percent from the field, 40 to 45 percent from three, 2.68 - 2.93 turnovers.

Phoenix Steve Nash - 17 to 18 ppg, 10.5 to 11.5 apg, 52 percent from the field, 43 to 47 percent from three, 3.27 - 3.78 turnovers.

So he's open and he has the ball in his hands more, not exactly hard to figure out why he drops so many dimes. Let's not even get into the D'Antoni shot clock rules. That's 2-3 apg right there.

It wasn’t Steve Nash that did that to Phoenix, it was Mike D’Antoni and his group of atheletic freaks. The way Barry Bonds is criticized for hitting the spontaneous veteran production steroid switch Steve Nash should get the exact same critique for moving to that bush league one dimensional team.

Here's the bigger question, of the top pure pg's in the league name which ones wouldn't avg 10-14 assists per game in that system?

They should save whatever they're paying him and go get Calderon, spend the money on a big perimeter defender who can get to the line consistently and stop selling offense to people that are too mindless to realize that D'Antoni/Nash combo is going to result in a big fat loss to a defensive team every single season in the playoffs in a big, fat sold out arena, which is obviously the only thing their ownership cares about.

Everybody has different views on this whole thing but I hold Steve Nash in the same light as Peyton Manning (considering they play defense equally well), top five but far from number one, right guy, right time, right system. He was never better than Jason Kidd and he sure as heck isn’t better than Chris Paul.

Anyone that would want Steve Nash in his prime over even Chancey Billups doesn’t want a ring.

The Suns are TERRIBLE against the top defensive teams that have quicker point guards that are able to penetrate and exploit this guy. That's why they keep losing to the Spurs, Steve Nash. Here's some recent proof and no joke these were the first 5 games I looked up, I didn't even know the Hornets swept them, it's just science and common sense.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=ApPQMfq.B_k5oPUAFzhsTHyLvLYF?gid=2008032602
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AuBaAci.7XRuIArjtd2ooKeLvLYF?gid=2008020621
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AtIPOShzIrklLvY4zACzVK6LvLYF?gid=2008022703
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Andwlq9TNE5sBWbOGlGtlT.LvLYF?gid=2007121503
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AmVBsZDObjS2UysoiLwvhImLvLYF?gid=2007101321

If they play New Orleans or Boston they're done and he's the reason why, those words should never be uttered regarding a supposed MVP.

[Fan from VT]

In 2003-04, the Phoenix Suns went 29-53. That offseason they signed Steve Nash and Quentin Richardson and ended up going 62-20 and making the Conference Finals. The next year after that, the Suns lost Joe Johnson. Amare Stoudemire then got injured and ended playing 3 games the entire season. This led experts to believe that the Suns would fall - but they went 54-28 and made the Conference Finals again.

I also believe that from 2000-01 to 2006-07 (I may be off by a year), the team that led the league in scoring had Steve Nash running the point.

Now many will say that the success of these teams cannot all be credited to Nash, and while I somewhat agree, I think that a very significant portion is Nash's doing. The energy, leadership, and decision-making that he brings really transforms teams (one could say it's pretty similar to KG's impact).

And as much as I love Rondo, I really don't think that I could take Rondo over Nash.

Yeah, well said.

Why can't a team have *two* great players?  Why do we have to discount Nash, because he has Amare, or Amare, because he has Nash?  Jordan had Scottie Pippen; does that make either of those two players anything less than an all-time great?  Malone had Stockton; Russell had Cousy. 

Steve Nash is one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA, and he's a great distributor.  He massively improved the Suns squad when he signed there as a free agent, and he's the single most important player on that team.

Also, what is the utility in comparing Nash to Magic Johnson?  Very few players have ever played at Magic's level; that doesn't make them lesser players, it's just a reflection of the greatness of Magic.

Nash is still a top-3 point guard, and will be for the next few seasons, assuming his back doesn't give out on him.  Whether he deserved the MVP awards is a matter of debate, but I think it's hard to argue that he's been anything other than a top-tier player for the past several seasons.

I don't want to take anything away from Nash. He's a great player. I find it extremely unfair and irritating that Nash gets credit for making other people better, and that he's a better player than his numbers indicate, while his own teammates are said to have their numbers inflated by Nash and not actually be as good as his numbers indicate.

On another note, Dallas essentially traded Nash for Terry and Dampier and got better. Dirk's numbers got better, even though he essentially had amare's role in Dallas. I think all the players discussed are great players, but due to what we want to see as a great story, we developed a huge double standard to elevate Nash over players like Dirk and Amare.

[MBz]

I do think he is incredibly over-rated due to how awful he is defensively.    He is a great offensive point guard, no doubt, but Chris Paul is the best point in the league without question.  Just like the offense starts with a point guard, I believe the defense does as well.  If the point guard is getting burnt, everything gets easier for the opposing team's offense.

[kenmaine]

Right now, in 2008, other guards are just consistently blowing by Nash, so yes, he's a defensive liability. And that pass the other day with a three point lead and about 20 seconds left in the game with the shot clock almost expired was a horrible decision and likely cost the game, although I felt the whole game that the Suns were going to blow it somehow.
That said, I don't watch enough games to say that he didn't deserve the MVP awards or that he's overrated. Offensively, he's a fantastic player and a joy to watch. I'd rather watch Nash than the almost unbelievably selfish Iverson and Anthony duo on the Nuggets.
And slightly off subject, how many times does Rondo have to outplay whoever the opposing pg is to get the respect he deserves? For two or three more years I guess.

[Steve Weinman]

Amare gets a lot of easy shots down low because of pick and rolls with Nash.


Put him with an average PG, he easy shots will go down.  He becomes more of a jumpshooting PF.  (or he develops some back to the back moves)


If you replaced Amare with Howard, Howard will score just as many points at a high %.  The Suns would be better because of defense. 


Nash is terrible on defense, but he is what makes Phoenix, Phoenix. 

You can replace Amare with Diaw, and the Suns are still a top team. 

Replace Nash, the team is probably out of the playoffs this year.

wd, I don't dispute that the Suns are likely better with Dwight than Amare, simply because Howard's all-around package is of greater worth than Amare's, and the difference on defense is so vast.  That said, I think the bolded sentence above is an instance of you discounting Amare's progress on the offensive end.  His big advantage over Howard is that his game with the ball in his hands is so much more developed.  Stoudemire can kill you from 15 to 18 feet (something he used to be able to do, and Howard utterly cannot at this point), and he has in fact increased both his moves and his touch around the basket to a fairly significant extent. What makes Howard so scary is that we're talking about a guy who is able to average 20 points per game already when he has to do most of his scoring on dunks and put-backs.  If he could gain any greater semblance of touch, he'd complete his development into monster.  But right now he doesn't have that.  STAT is the better scorer, and his field goal percentage certainly hasn't been too shoddy in its own right this seaosn.

-sw