Author Topic: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?  (Read 9509 times)

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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2008, 01:33:51 PM »

Offline Ersatz

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Stoudemire is amazing. No one claims he is perfect. Howard is considered the dominant big man of the future, not Amare. But Amare is a beast on offense.

Everyone charges at times, especially on fast breaks. Pierce and Ray Allen have done it, and they are smaller players who most would expect to have a mobility advantage over Amare.

Amare is so much better now that he doesn't have to play center. He has a ton of moves. He is not a post guy who has a single favorite move. He is a guy who runs around and who is amazingly agile.

There is a simple reason why Amare got less easy baskets yesterday -- they were playing the Spurs. Duncan could get easy baskets either at the end of the game, and Duncan has amazing go-to moves.

Let's not overreact.

While I agree everyone makes stupid charge fouls occasionally, I'd like to more comment on Stoudemire's propensity to do so in big games, at key times. His constant foul trouble against the Suns' most important opponent, the Spurs, is indicative of what I'm getting at. Nearly every game against the Spurs he puts his team in a bad position because of stupid fouls--over-the-backs, offensive control fouls, plowing through screens, etc. This has been going on for four years now.

As several have pointed out, correctly, Stoudemire has added some elements to his game this year. I don't really doubt that he is a good player. My problem is with the way he is perceived. He was first-team all-NBA last year. Has there been a first-teamer in the last decade with as many holes in his game as Stoudemire's? Nash, even though he's also a terrible defender, at least doesn't make stupid mistakes at bad times in big games. In fact, he usually steps up his game at these times--witness the OTs on Saturday. Stoudemire often spends key portions of the game on the bench against the Spurs. Why do people so universally praise his game and vote him to all-NBA teams if he can't help his team when they need him?

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2008, 02:45:45 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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He's definitely overrated by Shaq, but I can think of a ton more players more overrated than Amare.  If I had to pick a team of overrated all stars, my starting five would be:

PG: Tony Parker

I'm not sure what this guy is great at except getting into the lane and shooting floaters.  The only problem is he misses his fair share of layups, and more importantly, watch how often Duncan's defender refuses to leave Duncan on Parker's penetration.  This fact makes Parker seem more effective than he really is.  He can't shoot very well, awful from three, poor defense, overrated passing, constantly an all star but only 3rd best on his team.  Steve Nash, because of his back to back mvps, is also overrated, but not nearly as much as Parker.  His finals mvp is one of the biggest shams I've ever seen for an award in sports, along with Brady not winning it while leading the NFL in passing with Reche Caldwell as his #1. 


SG: Arenas

Ok, he currently doesn't start, but he will soon.  Skills wise he's not uverrated, however his team is worse when he plays.  Almost every announcer calls him one of the ten best in the game.  Offensively, perhaps, but not overall.  For all his game winning jumpers, he seems to clank a lot of 4th quarter shots and hasn't had much playoff success. 

SF: Vince Carter.  Super underachiever, team cancer, contract year superstar, poor defender and often merely a jumpshooter. 

PF: This to me is the toughest call, because there isn't an all star level guy that I'd consider overrated by much.  If I didn't think you guys were smart, I would say Ben Wallace or Jermaine O'Neal.  But since I do, I'm going to go with Chris Bosh.  I want to say Elton Brand, but to say him would only be because of his health, which I don't think is enough. 

Until this year Bosh was in the conversation for best young big with Amare and Howard and Jefferson, but to me Bosh is simply an offensive jumpshooter whose defense is not that strong.  Amare has way more moves, like Amare Bosh benefits from playing with a great pass first pg in Calderone, and Bosh's stats are inflated because no one else on his team can really create a shot.  To me, Bosh's defense is just as poor as Amare's, and for the second straight year it seems like he won't win a first round series. 

Josh Smith is an intriguing possibility but for my purposes he isn't an all star caliber player yet.  He's also miles ahead of Bosh defensively, rebounds just as well despite being smaller and playing with a truly primo rebounder in Horford, is a better passer. 

C: Yao Ming.  I'm gonna get it for this, but Yao Ming is one of the worst defensive centers I have ever seen.  He can't stay healthy, he gets absolutely abused in the playoffs, he can't move off the ball or get position very well, he should be a way better rebounder than he is at 7'6'', and he should be able to do more at his size than shoot a baseline turnaround jumper.  I would say Brad Miller but I don't think anyone really thinks he's very good, whereas Yao Ming gets MVP consideration. 
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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2008, 03:23:10 PM »

Offline jay_jay54

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He's definitely overrated by Shaq, but I can think of a ton more players more overrated than Amare.  If I had to pick a team of overrated all stars, my starting five would be:

PG: Tony Parker

I'm not sure what this guy is great at except getting into the lane and shooting floaters.  The only problem is he misses his fair share of layups, and more importantly, watch how often Duncan's defender refuses to leave Duncan on Parker's penetration.  This fact makes Parker seem more effective than he really is.  He can't shoot very well, awful from three, poor defense, overrated passing, constantly an all star but only 3rd best on his team.  Steve Nash, because of his back to back mvps, is also overrated, but not nearly as much as Parker.  His finals mvp is one of the biggest shams I've ever seen for an award in sports, along with Brady not winning it while leading the NFL in passing with Reche Caldwell as his #1. 


SG: Arenas

Ok, he currently doesn't start, but he will soon.  Skills wise he's not uverrated, however his team is worse when he plays.  Almost every announcer calls him one of the ten best in the game.  Offensively, perhaps, but not overall.  For all his game winning jumpers, he seems to clank a lot of 4th quarter shots and hasn't had much playoff success. 

SF: Vince Carter.  Super underachiever, team cancer, contract year superstar, poor defender and often merely a jumpshooter. 

PF: This to me is the toughest call, because there isn't an all star level guy that I'd consider overrated by much.  If I didn't think you guys were smart, I would say Ben Wallace or Jermaine O'Neal.  But since I do, I'm going to go with Chris Bosh.  I want to say Elton Brand, but to say him would only be because of his health, which I don't think is enough. 

Until this year Bosh was in the conversation for best young big with Amare and Howard and Jefferson, but to me Bosh is simply an offensive jumpshooter whose defense is not that strong.  Amare has way more moves, like Amare Bosh benefits from playing with a great pass first pg in Calderone, and Bosh's stats are inflated because no one else on his team can really create a shot.  To me, Bosh's defense is just as poor as Amare's, and for the second straight year it seems like he won't win a first round series. 

Josh Smith is an intriguing possibility but for my purposes he isn't an all star caliber player yet.  He's also miles ahead of Bosh defensively, rebounds just as well despite being smaller and playing with a truly primo rebounder in Horford, is a better passer. 

C: Yao Ming.  I'm gonna get it for this, but Yao Ming is one of the worst defensive centers I have ever seen.  He can't stay healthy, he gets absolutely abused in the playoffs, he can't move off the ball or get position very well, he should be a way better rebounder than he is at 7'6'', and he should be able to do more at his size than shoot a baseline turnaround jumper.  I would say Brad Miller but I don't think anyone really thinks he's very good, whereas Yao Ming gets MVP consideration. 
I have to disagree with you on TP,he is a proven warrior,winner,so i have to give him his due.The rest,have never won any championships or been on a team that came close.If you are overrated,usually,you can't help your team climb to the top.I think TP,being the quarterback so to speak of the SPURS,showed in the past,he is a leader,and didn't choke in the big games.It takes  special players to take it all the way.I know Duncan was the main force on the Spurs,but he didn't win alone.My observation is Tony Parker, has proved in the past he can play at the top.

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2008, 04:30:55 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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He's definitely overrated by Shaq, but I can think of a ton more players more overrated than Amare.  If I had to pick a team of overrated all stars, my starting five would be:

PG: Tony Parker

I'm not sure what this guy is great at except getting into the lane and shooting floaters.  The only problem is he misses his fair share of layups, and more importantly, watch how often Duncan's defender refuses to leave Duncan on Parker's penetration.  This fact makes Parker seem more effective than he really is.  He can't shoot very well, awful from three, poor defense, overrated passing, constantly an all star but only 3rd best on his team.  Steve Nash, because of his back to back mvps, is also overrated, but not nearly as much as Parker.  His finals mvp is one of the biggest shams I've ever seen for an award in sports, along with Brady not winning it while leading the NFL in passing with Reche Caldwell as his #1. 


SG: Arenas

Ok, he currently doesn't start, but he will soon.  Skills wise he's not uverrated, however his team is worse when he plays.  Almost every announcer calls him one of the ten best in the game.  Offensively, perhaps, but not overall.  For all his game winning jumpers, he seems to clank a lot of 4th quarter shots and hasn't had much playoff success. 

SF: Vince Carter.  Super underachiever, team cancer, contract year superstar, poor defender and often merely a jumpshooter. 

PF: This to me is the toughest call, because there isn't an all star level guy that I'd consider overrated by much.  If I didn't think you guys were smart, I would say Ben Wallace or Jermaine O'Neal.  But since I do, I'm going to go with Chris Bosh.  I want to say Elton Brand, but to say him would only be because of his health, which I don't think is enough. 

Until this year Bosh was in the conversation for best young big with Amare and Howard and Jefferson, but to me Bosh is simply an offensive jumpshooter whose defense is not that strong.  Amare has way more moves, like Amare Bosh benefits from playing with a great pass first pg in Calderone, and Bosh's stats are inflated because no one else on his team can really create a shot.  To me, Bosh's defense is just as poor as Amare's, and for the second straight year it seems like he won't win a first round series. 

Josh Smith is an intriguing possibility but for my purposes he isn't an all star caliber player yet.  He's also miles ahead of Bosh defensively, rebounds just as well despite being smaller and playing with a truly primo rebounder in Horford, is a better passer. 

C: Yao Ming.  I'm gonna get it for this, but Yao Ming is one of the worst defensive centers I have ever seen.  He can't stay healthy, he gets absolutely abused in the playoffs, he can't move off the ball or get position very well, he should be a way better rebounder than he is at 7'6'', and he should be able to do more at his size than shoot a baseline turnaround jumper.  I would say Brad Miller but I don't think anyone really thinks he's very good, whereas Yao Ming gets MVP consideration. 
I have to disagree with you on TP,he is a proven warrior,winner,so i have to give him his due.The rest,have never won any championships or been on a team that came close.If you are overrated,usually,you can't help your team climb to the top.I think TP,being the quarterback so to speak of the SPURS,showed in the past,he is a leader,and didn't choke in the big games.It takes  special players to take it all the way.I know Duncan was the main force on the Spurs,but he didn't win alone.My observation is Tony Parker, has proved in the past he can play at the top.

Would you consider Nash more overrated?  What other all star pg would you consider more overrated, as all stars are the guys responsible for getting the team to the top, not the role players. 

Other than the C's I've watched the Spurs more than anyone else in the league. To me, what makes Tony Parker indisputably overrated is the fact that he's the third best player on his team behind Manu and Duncan both statistically and in terms of importance, clutchness, and defense, and yet he's been to two all star games, while Manu has not been selected once.  I realize there are a ton of forwards in the west, but players are measured by all star teams.  This makes Parker overrated.

Other than the fact that the only thing Parker is "great" at is penetrating the lane and hitting floaters, the main reason he made those all star teams are because Duncan, Ginobili and the bench gave him a higher win total than other deserving pg's: Andre Miller (both years) , Chris Paul (05-06), Iverson (05-06), and Deron Williams (06-08).  And last of all, the finals MVP thing is really what cements it, because he was the third best player in that series.

NBA players are rated significantly by awards.  Because there is a strong case that Parker did not truly deserve his, I believe that makes him overrated.  Perhaps there is another all star level pg who is more overrated, but in my mind Parker is clearly overrated.
Give us this pick, Almighty Red
And forgive us our tanking
As we forgive those who tanked against us
And lead us not into the lottery
But deliver us from losing

-Sexyscottish

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2008, 05:16:38 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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He's definitely overrated by Shaq, but I can think of a ton more players more overrated than Amare.  If I had to pick a team of overrated all stars, my starting five would be:

C: Yao Ming.  I'm gonna get it for this, but Yao Ming is one of the worst defensive centers I have ever seen.  He can't stay healthy, he gets absolutely abused in the playoffs, he can't move off the ball or get position very well, he should be a way better rebounder than he is at 7'6'', and he should be able to do more at his size than shoot a baseline turnaround jumper.  I would say Brad Miller but I don't think anyone really thinks he's very good, whereas Yao Ming gets MVP consideration. 

You won't get it from me, given your rationale, as I'm right with you regarding Yao's defense.  I do think he is still a top-flight player in the league overall (when healthy), but his lateral movement is so bad that it really can kill this team on defense.  I believe they've only risen in the efficiency rankings without him at the end of the floor, and it's worth remembering that the quickness of Utah's bigs made this guy an utter liability last season.

That said, I don't purport to suggest that the Rockets are better off without him than with him.  But he does have some major deficiencies on the defensive end of the floor that are often overlooked.  Well said, smokeablount.  And creative name, too (guess I hadn't come across ya before)!  TP to ya.

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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2008, 06:22:28 PM »

Offline RebusRankin

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I think Manu's a little overhyped too, more so because people say he's the Spurs MVP this year. He's not its Duncan. Plus he flops too much on D and travels too much on O.

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2008, 06:33:31 PM »

Offline Mr October

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I think Manu's a little overhyped too, more so because people say he's the Spurs MVP this year. He's not its Duncan. Plus he flops too much on D and travels too much on O.

Parker is even more overrated!! Lets see how good those two "all stars" really are by replacing Duncan with with say Jermaine O'Neal or Chris Wilcox. They wouldn't make the playoffs.

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2008, 06:41:03 PM »

Offline D Dub

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I think Chris Bosh is hands down the most overated player in the league. 

Wasn't Toronto suppose to be good this year led by this guy?  Barely getting to 500 in the Atlantic is pretty pitiful considering the offseason expectations...

Lets not forget how Mikki Moore & the NoFrontLine Nets absolutely owned him the playoffs last year.  This year, I will be surprised to see them win One game.  His game is identical to Mark Blount --- 18' jumper, no rebounds, crappy D, and then the disapearing act when the game is on the line...     
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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2008, 06:45:53 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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I think Chris Bosh is hands down the most overated player in the league. 

Wasn't Toronto suppose to be good this year led by this guy?  Barely getting to 500 in the Atlantic is pretty pitiful considering the offseason expectations...

Lets not forget how Mikki Moore & the NoFrontLine Nets absolutely owned him the playoffs last year.  This year, I will be surprised to see them win One game.  His game is identical to Mark Blount --- 18' jumper, no rebounds, crappy D, and then the disapearing act when the game is on the line...     

Bosh has his flaws...but Mark Blount?  We're talking about a guy here who has averaged 22 ppg and 9.2, 10.7 and 8.7 rpg for the last three seasons...and has career averages of 18.9 and 9.0.  Seems a bit harsh to me.

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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2008, 06:52:29 PM »

Offline Mr October

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Quote
Other than the fact that the only thing Parker is "great" at is penetrating the lane and hitting floaters, the main reason he made those all star teams are because Duncan, Ginobili and the bench gave him a higher win total than other deserving pg's: Andre Miller (both years) , Chris Paul (05-06), Iverson (05-06), and Deron Williams (06-08).  And last of all, the finals MVP thing is really what cements it, because he was the third best player in that series.

To pile on:

Parker was also being defended by Boobie Gibson in the Finals! Give me a break. Parker always looks good when he plays against terrible defenders. And then on defense.... Parker? ....not so spectacular. Borderline All Star.

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2008, 06:55:10 PM »

Offline D Dub

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All stats aside, when is Bosh going to bring it like a real superstar?  I am talking about wins and big time performances.    

Going 500 after your team was nicely rebuilt around you, and getting slapped around by a scrawny reserve like Mikki Moore last year in the playoffs - is pretty weak for a guy who is on our National Team.  He looks like a child playing against Howard, don't be surprised when they get swept.
 
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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2008, 07:17:33 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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All stats aside, when is Bosh going to bring it like a real superstar?  I am talking about wins and big time performances.   

Going 500 after your team was nicely rebuilt around you, and getting slapped around by a scrawny reserve like Mikki Moore last year in the playoffs - is pretty weak for a guy who is on our National Team.  He looks like a child playing against Howard, don't be surprised when they get swept.
 

I understand what you're saying...I was merely suggesting that the Blount reference was a bit much for me.

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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2008, 10:43:11 PM »

Offline Who

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25 teams in the NBA have a second scorer that scores above 17ppg. Only 5 do not, those teams - Seattle (Wilcox 13.4ppg), Minnesota (McCants 14.9), Memphis (Mike Miller 16.4), Cleveland (Ilgauskas 14.9) and Toronto with Anthony Parker at 12.5ppg. Three of those teams are amongst the five worst in the league. And I think we can all get together and agree Ilgauskas is a lot better than Parker.

That's why Chris Bosh isn't overrated.

Chris Bosh has a larger burden on his shoulders than any other superstar in this league and has the worst supporting cast of any playoff team. He has the second worst offensive help in the league behind Kevin Durant, virtue of Bosh having more double digit scorers.

Playoffs are tougher. Teams have the time to work up team specific, player specific defensive strategies. We've seen Orlando do it already in game one, sending Jameer Nelson over to cut off the lane trying to limit Bosh's drive. New Jersey did it brilliantly last season. It's a heck of a lot easier for teams to limit Chris Bosh during the playoffs. They can just load up all over him.

Give Bosh some running mates and Toronto would make a lot of noise. Right now Bosh is a notch below being an MVP candidate. He's doing great work, needs help.